It's complicated - insight needed

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I have already said all of that few days ago without using the M word but i was explicit. He didn't end it or threatened to end it. He said this is clear to him, and I am his future. And said he will do something about it, although the dark side is very dark.

That's why i responded to Elaine that I need to follow up on this conversation within this month, just trying to pace it properly. 

Does this change any of your thoughts?

Maybe his is expecting to outlive his wife and marry you once his wife is gone? It could be 5 years or 35 years, but that way he wouldn’t have to confront her. It sounds silly but he is so conflict avoidant, and she is significantly older, so for him this would be the best case scenario.

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

The reason he doesn’t mention his wife is because he’s uncomfortable with the existence of the affair. Yes, there are other cases where the AP has met family - see “my husband has been cheating on me for 3 years” in the infidelity forum where the MM has told his brother his OW is the love of his life. Does your MM introduce you as his life partner or even girlfriend, or just a friend? And many OW and MMs spend all day together at work, some go on vacations together. In the case of the cheating husband above, he and his OW are buying property together. All these stories and so many more are available to read here - have you read any?? Read as many as you can, it’s incredibly illuminating.

Thanks, that's on my read list:) That's the type of stories I was looking for, I skimmed few topics but they were mostly long distance or sexual only relationships, so I didn't read further. I really need man's perspective, that MM in the above story might be it.

On the positive stories: I shared one of my friends divorced and her ex remarried within a month (she dragged the divorce for very long; his relationship was from years before filing too). They are still very happy together years later. Both type of stories exist obviously, I'm looking for insights and perspectives, that's all.

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

He said this is clear to him, and I am his future. And said he will do something about it, although the dark side is very dark.

You're in his future the same way you're in his present. Those words are meaningless.

More ominous is that he is telling you he can not and will not leave her. (too "dark" or whatever cryptic neologisms faux names etc. he's using).

Who started talking in riddles? Do you do this with close friends or family? Or is this just to dance around the facts and truth with him? 

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I really need man's perspective, that MM in the above story might be it.

You will find very few men post here. In this case the betrayed wife found his text messages. 

[TamBuktu]

Just now, RebeccaR said:

Maybe his is expecting to outlive his wife and marry you once his wife is gone? It could be 5 years or 35 years, but that way he wouldn’t have to confront her. It sounds silly but he is so conflict avoidant, and she is significantly older, so for him this would be the best case scenario.

Ok that's super morbid lol. Gives me chills even reading it, I hope not.

If I wanted to pressure him, I could. It's a matter of which conflict is worse, right? But I don't want to treat him like a naughty child. I am trying to be respectful as best as i can considering the circumstances.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

You will find very few men post here. In this case the betrayed wife found his text messages. 

But, for a current male perspective, read Torn Heart’s story on the infidelity forum. The OW has become increasingly demanding and toxic

Edited November 5, 2021 by RebeccaR

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, Wiseman2 said:

You're in his future the same way you're in his present. Those words are meaningless.

More ominous is that he is telling you he can not and will not leave her. (too "dark" or whatever cryptic neologisms faux names etc. he's using).

Who started talking in riddles? Do you do this with close friends or family? Or is this just to dance around the facts and truth with him? 

He said he will do something about it regardless of how dark the dark is.

Ah I started before him! I speak the same way with most of my friends and family. He fortified the style, or maybe that's one of our common things? We have laughed about it many times, now is biting me back though. 

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If I wanted to pressure him, I could.

This isn’t quite correct. You want to pressure him right now, but you can’t 

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I really need man's perspective

Focus on your situation/story and only your situation/story. Every situation is unique. Your lover is a married man so his perspective is the one you need most.

[BaileyB]

59 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

-how much time we spend together on daily basis and extent of involvement 

-the fact he introduced me to family and vice versa (+friends, church, neighbors, coworkers)

Well, I can think of two women on this board who lived with their affair partners in a legitimate relationship (after he left his family and filed for divorce) only to have him decide to return home. One had actually bought a house and got a dog with the man - and he still went back to his wife.

I can think of another who bought his affair partner a ring and proposed, but he never left his wife and the affair ended spectacularly. 

There is another woman on this board who was quite sure that she was going to get her man because he spent weekends, birthdays, Valentine’s Day with her while still married to his wife. He didn’t leave, until she ended it. He then found himself another other woman, until he did leave and tries to form a legitimate relationship with the original other woman. He eventually went back to his wife, until both women (wife and OW) left him because he was still seeing the OOW. 

You see, it’s pretty standard for women to come here with the assumption that she has his love and undying devotion because they spend so much time together - but very few of these men actually leave their wife to be with the other woman. And if they do, there is absolutely no guarantee that they won’t go back. 
 

59 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

-that she has never been mentioned and we both use evasive language (here I am more asking how to reverse that; above two are the atypical points)

Again, so very typical for the MM not to speak of his marriage or his wife with the OW - for obvious reasons. What’s atypical about this situation is that you have abided by this unspoken - don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Not many women are so willing to do so - certainly not for this long…

Edited November 5, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

12 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

This isn’t quite correct. You want to pressure him right now, but you can’t 

Trust me I can  Wont be pretty but I can. And won’t..

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

On the positive stories: I shared one of my friends divorced and her ex remarried within a month (she dragged the divorce for very long; his relationship was from years before filing too). They are still very happy together years later. Both type of stories exist obviously,

Yes, both types of stories exist. I have a friend who met a man and very shortly after, they both divorced and they are living very happily together. The difference being, they met, they made the decision that they wanted to be together, and they went about making that happen. They didn’t dance around the subject for years, never speaking of their own or their partner’s spouse. They were decisive and once the decision was made, they did what was required to be together. 

[TamBuktu]

10 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Well, I can think of two women on this board who lived with their affair partners in a legitimate relationship (after he left his family and filed for divorce) only to have him decide to return home. One had actually bought a house and got a dog with the man - and he still went back to his wife.

I can think of another who bought his affair partner a ring and proposed, but he never left his wife and the affair ended spectacularly. 

There is another woman on this board who was quite sure that she was going to get her man because he spent weekends, birthdays, Valentine’s Day with her while still married to his wife. He didn’t leave, until she ended it. He then found himself another other woman, until he did leave and tries to form a legitimate relationship with the original other woman. He eventually went back to his wife, until both women (wife and OW) left him because he was still seeing the OOW. 

You see, it’s pretty standard for women to come here with the assumption that she has his love and undying devotion because they spend so much time together - but very few of these men actually leave their wife to be with the other woman. And if they do, there is absolutely no guarantee that they won’t go back. 
 

Again, so very typical for the MM not to speak of his marriage or his wife with the OW - for obvious reasons. What’s atypical about this situation is that you have abided by this unspoken - don’t ask, don’t tell policy. Not many women are so willing to do so - certainly not for this long…

Yes, and I see now why - it is my default style to speak in riddles, so when he started with it, I didn't blink an eye. It was the same as I'd speak to say an ex, a friend or a family member.

I see few messages in the above stories

- first,  getting together is no guarantee of staying together; I can't count how many people I know that went back to exes after breakup or divorce, that's no different

-second, timing is everything. The woman nagging (for home, kids, ring whatever) is a deal breaker in all sots of relationships affairs included. If he's not ready he's not ready and no amount of pressure will speed the things up even if he succumbs to it (same applies for roles reversed - I was pressured in a past relationship and ended up with huge resentment towards that person who had his life "agenda")

-third - it is usually the woman ending things (wife or OW or GF, same rules apply), guys seem to be more resilient or just.. less invested? I have seen few relationships (not affairs) that would have ended with marriage if the girl didn't put "my way or the highway" sign after 2-3 years of dating

-forth and most important - there is a high chance this won't work "my way" so I need to be ready for plan B or C in case that happens and not lose my brain:) Plan B is not a new man but e.g. becoming a single mother when I turn 40. Right now I haven't exhausted plan A yet.

And another thought: my hurdle is not his marriage, it is his extreme habitual personality. If he were single, it will still be a problem. We spoke in depth about how he always waited for the other party in past jobs and relationships, maddening right?

[TamBuktu]

18 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Yes, both types of stories exist. I have a friend who met a man and very shortly after, they both divorced and they are living very happily together. The difference being, they met, they made the decision that they wanted to be together, and they went about making that happen. They didn’t dance around the subject for years, never speaking of their own or their partner’s spouse. They were decisive and once the decision was made, they did what was required to be together. 

Eh just curious, how the heck people make a decision like this fast? I myself couldn't make myself even think of a future with him (or anyone for that fact) before knowing them for years and knowing every aspect of their personality first.

[BaileyB]

28 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

And another thought: my hurdle is not his marriage, it is his extreme habitual personality. If he were single, it will still be a problem. We spoke in depth about how he always waited for the other party in past jobs and relationships, maddening right?

I suppose - you are the one planning a future with this man. I wouldn’t expect him to change who he is at 50. 

[RebeccaR]

20 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I wouldn’t expect him to change who he is at 50. 

Even if he were 100% single, I would be extremely wary with a noncommittal guy of this age tbh

[BaileyB]

52 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Eh just curious, how the heck people make a decision like this fast? I myself couldn't make myself even think of a future with him (or anyone for that fact) before knowing them for years and knowing every aspect of their personality first.

I hear what you are saying, but this is not justification to carry on an affair for years with another woman’s husband? 

One could argue the other side of the story - how the heck do you involve yourself with a married man for years, taking your own time to get to know the man and decide if he is your chosen partner. How are you so entitled and how do you let it go on this long without addressing the actual issue - 

The issue long term for you may be his conflict avoidant and as you put it, habitual personality. But unless you plan to continue this affair, the barrier here is that the man is married. If marriage and children are your goal, then the barrier preventing you from achieving your goal is the fact that he is married and has no intention of filing for divorce. Again - ignore that to your own detriment. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by BaileyB

[Wiseman2]

54 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 it is my default style to speak in riddles, so when he started with 

Problem with idioglossia  between you two is that no one else outside your bubble knows what you are talking about so it's difficult not to feel this isolated and this dependent in this bubble.

That means it deepens secrecy, talking in circles around the truth. In avoiding real grown up words like 'wife', 'married', 'divorce', you can stay in a playland with this odd language.

What you are describing is someone who is passive aggressive and lets others take the lead while he uses obstructionism, procrastination and other tactics to frustrate everyone. He sounds like a loser, unfortunately, who also sticks it to his wife in a passive aggressive manner by cheating and lying. It sounds like she runs the show and he's being defiant by cheating.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Wiseman2

[TamBuktu]

12 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I hear what you are saying, but this is not justification to carry on an affair for years with another woman’s husband? 

One could argue the other side of the story - how the heck do you involve yourself with a married man for years, taking your own time to get to know the man and decide if he is your chosen partner. How are you so entitled and how do you let it go on this long without addressing the actual issue - 

The issue long term for you may be his conflict avoidant and as you put it, habitual personality. But unless you plan to continue this affair, the barrier here is that the man is married. If marriage and children are your goal, then the barrier preventing you from achieving your goal is the fact that he is married and has no intention of filing for divorce. Again - ignore that to your own detriment. 

Right, I am no saint here. Of course there is entitlement. When I started picking flirty vibes initially I'd not even stay around. I moved to the observers seat. I watched for a long time how he interacts with others. At some point we got closer - on a friendship level, i don't even know how. It was many months after that before we had our first kiss. I wasn't a whim of a decision and I still feel bad for the turmoil it will cause in the BW world. That's why I mentioned if there are financial considerations or need of practical help, I won't like it (obviously) but will bite my tongue and help. I've already done this when it had to do with someone in her family - I assisted him helping them, not as an act of altruism but.. well, guilt. 

I am going back and forth how to address the actual issue. It is a habit breaking on my end as well (eg how we speak) and I don't have the time to afford an year of counselling before changing things:(

[RebeccaR]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't have the time to afford an year of counselling before changing things:(

I thought one purpose of freezing your embryos was to buy time. But you seem to now recognize that every day that passes means he becomes more and more entrenched in his marriage.

[TamBuktu]

29 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Problem with idioglossia  between you two is that no one else outside your bubble knows what you are talking about so it's difficult not to feel this isolated and this dependent in this bubble.

That means it deepens secrecy, talking in circles around the truth. In avoiding real grown up words like 'wife', 'married', 'divorce', you can stay in a playland with this odd language.

What you are describing is someone who is passive aggressive and lets others take the lead while he uses obstructionism, procrastination and other tactics to frustrate everyone. He sounds like a loser, unfortunately, who also sticks it to his wife in a passive aggressive manner by cheating and lying. It sounds like she runs the show and he's being defiant by cheating.

Wiseman you are wise. That is what it is, we have a whole world build between us that nobody can understand nor relate. 

I have always felt somewhat misunderstood by society, and always had to keep the serious and responsible face. For me he is a breath of fresh air in a way that he is not put off by my quirks but plays right along. We just went too far in that and need to swing back towards the serious side, that's unfortunately very obvious to me now.

I love our safe bubble and him being accepting and loving. That would sound super selfish but I also love I got to know him in this a bit more isolated way instead of the pressure of do this, do that, pronto, as it would have been in a standard dating relationship.

And yes, he has his issues as you said above. I wouldn't go that far to say "loser"  but his tactics has worked for him so far, and brought him far in life - so I see why he stuck to that. 

sticks it to his wife in a passive aggressive manner by cheating and lying. It sounds like she runs the show and he's being defiant by cheating.
I want to elaborate on this a little. There is a truth in this, besides the age difference, there is a cultural difference where for whatever reason he feels inferior to her, like to the level he'd act like her family did him a favor letting him in her life. It is something I can't discuss in more detail but you get the idea. And she's playing on this card apparently, he is not the complainer type but I always can tell when a conversation on that topic has taken place. I can't express the level to which this is infuriating me.

Edited November 5, 2021 by TamBuktu

[Birdies]

In answer to your questions, in our situation (previously both married and having an affair - now happily married with a family for the past ~5 years - and it should go without saying that this was a super terrible thing to do and we have done a lot of work on ourselves to figure out and fix our flaws that led us to do this) - no, there were no ultimatums.  We had fallen in love but we didn't ever imagine actually ending up together.  He knew he needed to leave his wife because she was emotionally abusive and a covert narcissist.  I thought I still loved my husband and couldn't imagine leaving him, but I was unhappy in my marriage. 

We had a D-Day (affair came out) that was explosive and wildly unpleasant for everyone involved.  We each took some time to decide what to do.  He knew he was getting divorced, but I wasn't sure what to do.  He never pressured me and in fact encouraged me to try to make with work with my husband if I thought we could.  My husband and I decided too much damage was done, due to the affair and also issues in our marriage, and got a (relatively amicable) divorce. 

My AP and I continued to date and be a couple for several years.  Our friends and family all knew what had happened, and while we lost some friends of course, our families and many friends accepted and approved of our relationship over time.  After a couple of years, I got pregnant which was planned but sooner than expected, so we moved in together (we lived 4 blocks apart) and got married and the rest is history. 

We have a really healthy happy marriage, but we have always had very good communication and openness.  It's tough if you're afraid to bring up topics to your partner.  That makes it difficult to have an authentic, open marriage.  And sometimes that can be breeding grounds for an affair, when there are underlying issues in a marriage but the people feel afraid or unable to discuss them.  Personally, I would be wary of making a lifetime commitment like parenthood with someone who is so conflict-avoidant.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Birdies

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I thought one purpose of freezing your embryos was to buy time. But you seem to now recognize that every day that passes means he becomes more and more entrenched in his marriage.

Yeah, actually I haven't shared that but I also get a lot of pressure from family/friends (those who know and those who don't alike) to "do something" and that's heavy on me. It's not that I have logistical hurdle to wait, I am just afraid I'll lose my nerves and say things that I can't take back.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, Birdies said:

In answer to your questions, in our situation (previously both married and having an affair - now happily married with a family for the past ~5 years - and it should go without saying that this was a super terrible thing to do and we have done a lot of work on ourselves to figure out and fix our flaws that led us to do this) - no, there were no ultimatums.  We had fallen in love but we didn't ever imagine actually ending up together.  He knew he needed to leave his wife because she was emotionally abusive and a covert narcissist.  I thought I still loved my husband but was unhappy in my marriage. 

We had a D-Day (affair came out) that was explosive and wildly unpleasant for everyone involved.  We each took some time to decide what to do.  He knew he was getting divorced, but I wasn't sure what to do.  He never pressured me and in fact encouraged me to try to make with work with my husband if I thought we could.  My husband and I decided too much damage was done, due to the affair and also issues in our marriage, and got a (relatively amicable) divorce. 

My AP and I continued to date and be a couple for several years.  Our friends and family all knew what had happened, and while we lost some friends of course, our families and many friends accepted and approved of our relationship over time.  After a couple of years, I got pregnant which was planned but sooner than expected, so we moved in together (we lived 4 blocks apart) and got married and the rest is history. 

We have a really healthy happy marriage, but we have always had very good communication and openness.  It's tough if you're afraid to bring up topics to your partner.  That makes it difficult to have an authentic, open marriage.  And sometimes that can be breeding grounds for an affair, when there are underlying issues in a marriage but the people feel afraid or unable to discuss them.  Personally, I would be wary of making a lifetime commitment like parenthood with someone who is so conflict-avoidant.

Thank you so much for sharing. I love your story. I love how he did not apply pressure on you and things worked out organically.

Was the D-day planned or it happened accidentally? The thing in our case is I'm convinced she knows about us, but is not in a position to care and is better to stay with her eyes wide shut.

My close friend had similar situation (both her and ex-H had affairs) - when they divorced after a huge scandal and years of dragging, she and here AP separated, and he and his AP married and are together to this day. So I am aware it can go both ways..

[RebeccaR]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I love how he did not apply pressure on you and things worked out organically.

That you view a disclosure  in which both betrayed spouses are blindsided and devastated with rose-colored glasses, and you see it as an inspiration, says something disturbing about you. It could very well be that both couples were ill-matched, but I’m sure it was absolutely horrible for everyone concerned 

Edited November 5, 2021 by RebeccaR