It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Curious how long again you created the frozen embryos. Recently, or earlier in your relationship? As far as he knows, the reason was to test how fertilizable your eggs were? Was he just doing you a favor as a friend or were you already at the “dating” stage? That’s why I wondered earlier about surrogacy, maybe his wife blessed this attempt because she knew he wanted kids and she’s too old to have them.

Right around the transition from best friends / casual to serious. At this point we haven't discussed at all what having kids together will entail etc. I made it as medical as I can. In the context of what I do (I am not a doctor but something in the field) I think he didn't think too much of it. It's the things I live and breathe for and yes, that's another level, but if I could give you the whole context it will make sense.

On the practical side, I had to go through too many procedures myself and the doctors were not letting me anymore so you can think of it as friendly favor more than a relationship step.

[TamBuktu]

22 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

Wait - you all are keeping this ruse up in front of your entire church?!  

What about the whole "Thou shalt not commit adultery" thing?  

That wasn't a suggestion because some people might get their feelings hurt if you do.  It's because God recognizes the seriousness of the commitment of marriage, how it reflects Christ's selfless love for His Church, because he knows he didn't create us to be duplicitous and the angst and pain you feel are a a consequence of your ongoing sin.  He knows the cost of it to our well-being, our reputations, our finances, just how far-reaching the destruction goes like ripples in a pond affecting not only our own lives but those lives around us we're supposed to love like He called us to.

If you proclaim to be a woman of faith I think God's got some real and hard truths about yourself and human nature that you need to start paying attention to.  Don't be the hypocrite, the moral failing that drives people out of the faith.

That's also a very complicated topic. I have been on the verge of turning agnostic for years, so did he, that's a transition that he wanted to do together.

If you are asking me if I feel guilt - I do. And then I think I am not the one cheating... I have never cheated myself. It's just my mental band aid, I know what you mean.

[TamBuktu]

22 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

No, you are only seeing one possible other side. 

There is another that doesn't look anything like what you're dreaming of. 

 

I have thought of all outcomes.

For the purpose of keeping my focus and sanity I am intentionally keeping the "other side" as I like to see it in focus. From my experience that's the only way one can lead a project to completion, and yet I realize that is not a project...

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

But really, the biggest mistake you made in the very beginning was assuming he and his wife don’t care about each other, simply because they don’t express themselves and spend as much time together as you think they should. You unilaterally decided his marriage was a sham. He never actually said that himself. You set up your whole life and future childbearing based on this assumption, which might very well be wrong. That’s why he’s not eager to get to the other side.

Now. That's the biggest assumption and the thing that will sway me to a different path - if I can prove otherwise to myself.

I'm spinning my wheels here to believe otherwise, based on all I have observed. Any trace of evidence I am not right might be helpful. Him referring to his "situation" as "a nightmare he don't know how to wake up from", as well as his family never even acknowledging her existence,  is surely not helping my cause.

If I find an unbiased way (third party) to get the information I need - the whole "case" will be solved, even if not in the way I want it to be

[TamBuktu]

20 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

This is so clear it’s practically screaming. I am worried OP cannot see past the narrative she’s constructed wherein the MM is merely paralyzed by unreasonable fears, and once she reassures him of a calm and happy future, he will finally see the light. Offering to pay the BS’s violent sons to leave the happy couple alone is a desperate move, but in her narrative it is entirely necessary to reassure her MM of his safety before he will proceed.

I’m also worried that OP has too strong of an addiction to MM to actually move on to Plan B or Plan C. She’s built her whole future around an idea that he’s not on board with. 

That's unfortunately so accurate I laughed about it. But it's not a laughable matter. 

[TamBuktu]

19 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It seems like under the cryptic robotic writing is an intelligent confused women who wants normal things in life. Marriage, family, a man who's in love and committed.

However as normal and healthy as your goals and desires are for your life, this man you are with is a toxic cheater.

This may be why you are hiding behind the outlines, riddles, plans, approaches, etc.

See the thing is I just can't convince myself he is a toxic cheater. I see him as someone who just have poor coping skills and it is horrible that at this case (and maybe others) people suffer because of that, but it is not something that is an easy fix or he's doing out of malice. 

In my case, I swang so much into being "cryptic robot" indeed, someone who wasn't allowed/allowing herself to have a normal personal life, that I crave it with my whole heart. I said it before but he, besides his obvious flaws, is the first person I feel loved, safe and happy with. It's incredibly hard to see him as a heartless monster in this context

I

[TamBuktu]

So to summarize the progress, after the traumatizing start of the weekend all between us is back in track. On the surface. We spent some time with common friends (unaware of his situation, as well as of our "argument" the day before) and their reaction was that I am acting "weird" and he's acting " unnaturally calm".. This was awfully accurate summary for how we are after all said between us the day before. I promised to step back from talking about "our pain topic" with him for few days, and I'll hold my promise to allow both of us to process our thoughts.

[elaine567]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I am acting "weird" and he's acting " unnaturally calm"..

You are on tenterhooks worried sick about what is to come.
He just got a reprieve for  a few days...

[mark clemson]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the crux of your issue (speaking generally, not to the precise current "happenings") is that you'd prefer that he leave, but you don't want to pressure him to do it. You'd prefer he do it "of his own accord".

However, I don't think that's particularly realistic. That's because, assuming he's genuinely unhappy in his marriage, you're making it easier for him to tolerate it. He is happier now with you and has gotten used to it, while divorcing is stressful. 

"Pressuring" him MAY cause him to end the affair, but in that case presumably he wasn't going to leave anyhow and the pressuring just brought things to a head. Breaking up is difficult, but IF that's the case, finding out sooner that he'll never leave is probably in your best interest

[anika99]

On 11/14/2021 at 8:45 AM, introverted1 said:

Your answers are in bold.

I've read all 35 pages of this and, frankly, there is nothing complicated here. Your story, much as I am sure it feels unique to you, has been played out time after time in this board. You are one of many OWs hoping her MM will decide to leave his marriage and be with her fulltime.

You use a lot of vague and obfuscating language to avoid the simple truth that this man knows full well you want him to divorce his wife and create a family with you. Never mind that you only articulated this 3 days ago; you've been seeing him for 3 years and have apparently already frozen embryos that he provided the material for. You've discussed becoming a family together.  Of course he knows what outcome you want. You just don't want to see/accept that he has been is content with things the way they are.

All this dancing around with words and careful planning of how to maneuver him into compliance with your goals is senseless:  he either wants what you want (and is prepared to act on it) or he doesn't. No amount of word-smithing will get him to do what he doesn't want to do.

Your choices are limited and clear:  Set a deadline for his divorce after which you will move on. You can tell him about it or not (I already hear you claiming you don't want to give an ultimatum). OR Continue with the status quo and stop agonizing about the right words to use to try to manipulate him into the outcome you desire.  The reality is that if he wanted to be with you the way you want to be with him, he'd have found a way to do so, and wouldn't need hints from you.  He's had 3 years to figure it out.

This! A million times this! 

The above is exactly my thoughts throughout this thread. If this man wanted to leave his wife and marry you then it would have happened already. It doesn't matter that you didn't even bring the topic up until recently, if this is what he wanted he would have been talking and acting on his words a long time ago. One thing I have observed from reading stories on this board is that the MM who leaves his wife for the OW usually does so within the first year of the affair. Either because he was already truly miserable in his marriage and already wanting out of it or because he is in a state of total infatuation with the OW and those puppy love chemicals are overriding everything else. Once an affair drags on for a several years it becomes extremely unlikely that the MM will leave his marriage because by that time the MM has regained his rationality and logical thinking. In this situation it seems that MM sees the affair as a supplement to his marriage. He is comfortable and content in his marriage but there are some things missing (because no one person can fulfill another person's needs 100% of the time) which you have been happy to accommodate. Here it seems to be sexual satisfaction and perhaps some shared interests in other areas.  

While most MM never leave for the OW there as been the occasional  success story here, that is if you consider winning a cheating man a success. Your MM does not fit the profile of a man who is going to leave his wife, he sound exactly like a man who is going to try everything he can to keep his marriage and the affair. This man is in his fifties and he very well knows who he is and what he wants. He plays passive games with people so that they think he some confused little boy who needs his hand held  but he knows what he is doing. There have been posts on this thread already and most everything I would say has already been said but I think the post I quoted sums it up nicely. Why do you want to marry a man who needs to be convinced to be with you? Why do you want a man who by your own words is conflict avoidant and weak? By the way conflict avoidance is not a minor characteristic, it's a severe personality flaw. Nobody likes conflict but your MM is so conflict avoidant that I suspect it's now a full blown diagnosable personality disorder in him. You will never know who he truly is and  what he truly wants because he will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and behave how he thinks you want him to behave. He knows you want to have his babies so he lets you think that he wants that too but men in their fifties do not want to start having children. I'm in my fifties and no way in hell would I give up my freedom and peace to start having babies now. You are lost in some fantasyland with this guy and you are losing out. 

Oh the going to church together thing is just weird. Why do you attend church? Is it just a social gathering for you? Do you go just to please your MM? I'm thinking it must not have much to do with getting closer to God or having a spiritual relationship with God as most spiritual people see cheating and dishonesty as sinful and willfully being sinful is considered a separation from God. Not being preachy but I was raised in a holy roller church so I know the ins and outs of church going. It's not that people have to perfect to attend church, it would be one thing if you were trapped in affair and still went to church every week on your own to pray and maybe find guidance to help you get out of this situation. That's a lot different from attending every week WITH your MM. Attending with your MM is like having your affair in church and thumbing your nose at the fundamental beliefs the church holds. How do you explain this to yourself? 

[RebeccaR]

35 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

We spent some time with common friends (unaware of his situation, as well as of our "argument" the day before)

They are unaware he’s married? 

[LynneVicious]

19 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

He is happier now with you and has gotten used to it, while divorcing is stressful. 

This is so true. Divorce is so stressful, difficult and life changing. This affair is easy. 

Op, I gotta give it to you... usually after speaking with the boards, the ow starts seeing the affair for what it is, start questioning, start demanding more and then make changes. You, otoh, are firm in your belief that your love is true but for the ‘situation’. 

I have to agree with the other posters that he will not leave. He may say he will, but it’s usually, “I’ll talk with her next weekend” then “I can leave next month”. Then “I cant leave til spring because of xyz “  then all the mental gymnastics won’t change the fact that he just won’t leave  because he doesn’t want to.

Its a pattern. Always is. I think it’ll take that happening for you to see that your story is not unique, unfortunately. 

Do you truly believe he wants to leave even though it’s been 3 years??

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

Do you truly believe he wants to leave even though it’s been 3 years??

If he was the one bringing it up, I would be more likely to believe he will leave.
But he wasn't.
He never said a word.
As it is, he is too shy, too fearful, too cowardly, too arrogant maybe... to even give the poor OP a straight answer, to put her out of her misery, one way or the other.

[RebeccaR]

32 minutes ago, anika99 said:

You will never know who he truly is and  what he truly wants because he will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and behave how he thinks you want him to behave.

I had coworkers like this and it was tremendously maddening. I can’t imagine being in a relationship with someone who behaves this way.

[ExpatInItaly]

53 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

We spent some time with common friends (unaware of his situation,

Do they not know he is married?

54 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I promised to step back from talking about "our pain topic" with him for few days,

Is that how he actually phrases it? "Our pain topic"?

This grown-ass man has got you so programmed with bizarre code-language that you're afraid to even say the word "marriage" because you know he doesn't want you to use certain phrases. You don't seem to be aware of how manipulated you really are, right down to how you're supposed to speak to him. 

He's got you on very tight puppet strings and you don't even know it.

 

[RebeccaR]

13 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You don't seem to be aware of how manipulated you really are

It’s “her decision” to make him her beneficiary - I’d be surprised if he didn’t put the idea in her head, then back off and pretend he didn’t.

Also, he constantly expresses disbelief that “I really want him” where he knows this damn well. He will use that as yet another excuse - “I can’t believe a pretty young thing like you actually wants this old man, I can’t let you make that sacrifice Tam” (ugh)

[Starswillshine]

11 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

This grown-ass man has got you so programmed with bizarre code-language that you're afraid to even say the word "marriage" because you know he doesn't want you to use certain phrases. You don't seem to be aware of how manipulated you really are, right down to how you're supposed to speak to him. 

He's got you on very tight puppet strings and you don't even know it.

This!!!

Reading the last few pages from over the weekend, it was almost like an abused woman speaking. NOT implying the MM is physically abusing her, but as most abuser are master manipulators, this is the impression I am getting with this man from OP's writing. She is afraid to brooch any conversation because she might lose emotional control.  Does not want to stress him. All the typical excuses you hear from a battered woman. I have read these pages lately, and it has made me so sad to see this woman make herself smaller and smaller and put needs and desires on the back burner as to not upset her MM. 

And to add on to what another poster said... about church. You said you both are wanting to transition to being agnostic. You said you are from differing religions? What the heck are you doing going to church with this man? Other than to MAKE a scene. 

There is too much here trying to be this perfect little woman who doesn't upset her MM. Show him that you are the one who will understand him, comfort him, never upset him, etc... truth is, most men are not really attracted to a complete push over like this. 

[TamBuktu]

55 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Do they not know he is married?

Is that how he actually phrases it? "Our pain topic"?

This grown-ass man has got you so programmed with bizarre code-language that you're afraid to even say the word "marriage" because you know he doesn't want you to use certain phrases. You don't seem to be aware of how manipulated you really are, right down to how you're supposed to speak to him. 

He's got you on very tight puppet strings and you don't even know it.

 

Answering you point by point, that applies to the other posters asking similar questions.

Yes. They have no idea. The funny thing is in half of our dinners with them, one of them is discussing her own past affair, she simply can't comprehend he or I could have done what she did. She finds him shy and slow to propose to me, that's all. (Makes me think how many things around us we see but don't understand  ).

No. He hasn't programmed anything. The riddle language we use is something I enjoy. I have done similar all my life. 

No. He couldn't do this even if he wanted to. You have to take my word for this.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think the crux of your issue (speaking generally, not to the precise current "happenings") is that you'd prefer that he leave, but you don't want to pressure him to do it. You'd prefer he do it "of his own accord".

However, I don't think that's particularly realistic. That's because, assuming he's genuinely unhappy in his marriage, you're making it easier for him to tolerate it. He is happier now with you and has gotten used to it, while divorcing is stressful. 

"Pressuring" him MAY cause him to end the affair, but in that case presumably he wasn't going to leave anyhow and the pressuring just brought things to a head. Breaking up is difficult, but IF that's the case, finding out sooner that he'll never leave is probably in your best interest

Yes. That's the crux of the issue. I have had no intent to sway him in either direction. 

I grew to see that he doesn't function the way I do. He reacts differently to pressure. Therefore my change in tone with him recently.

I don't think he is genuinely unhappy in his marriage either. How could he be with the bare minimum amount of interaction they have + there is nothing shared, anticipated etc. It's a compatible housemate situation at best. I've been in similar situation and it's extremely hard to leave because there is no (obvious) reason.

I don't mind the pressure just need to balance it out to get response instead of retracting.

 

And I am fully understanding that that's the hardest decision in his life, and most likely the first "adult" decision, despite his age.

[stillafool]

17 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I've been in similar situation and it's extremely hard to leave because there is no (obvious) reason.

Shouldn't the obvious reason be that he is in love with and wants to be with you?  No one in their right mind would want to live with a roommate when they can live with the love of their life.  Again, this makes no sense.

[RebeccaR]

19 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

And I am fully understanding that that's the hardest decision in his life

If this is true (and ignoring the “adult” remark which is just sad), maybe he has already  made the hard decision and has decided to stay put?

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, anika99 said:

This! A million times this! 

The above is exactly my thoughts throughout this thread. If this man wanted to leave his wife and marry you then it would have happened already. It doesn't matter that you didn't even bring the topic up until recently, if this is what he wanted he would have been talking and acting on his words a long time ago. One thing I have observed from reading stories on this board is that the MM who leaves his wife for the OW usually does so within the first year of the affair. Either because he was already truly miserable in his marriage and already wanting out of it or because he is in a state of total infatuation with the OW and those puppy love chemicals are overriding everything else. Once an affair drags on for a several years it becomes extremely unlikely that the MM will leave his marriage because by that time the MM has regained his rationality and logical thinking. In this situation it seems that MM sees the affair as a supplement to his marriage. He is comfortable and content in his marriage but there are some things missing (because no one person can fulfill another person's needs 100% of the time) which you have been happy to accommodate. Here it seems to be sexual satisfaction and perhaps some shared interests in other areas.  

While most MM never leave for the OW there as been the occasional  success story here, that is if you consider winning a cheating man a success. Your MM does not fit the profile of a man who is going to leave his wife, he sound exactly like a man who is going to try everything he can to keep his marriage and the affair. This man is in his fifties and he very well knows who he is and what he wants. He plays passive games with people so that they think he some confused little boy who needs his hand held  but he knows what he is doing. There have been posts on this thread already and most everything I would say has already been said but I think the post I quoted sums it up nicely. Why do you want to marry a man who needs to be convinced to be with you? Why do you want a man who by your own words is conflict avoidant and weak? By the way conflict avoidance is not a minor characteristic, it's a severe personality flaw. Nobody likes conflict but your MM is so conflict avoidant that I suspect it's now a full blown diagnosable personality disorder in him. You will never know who he truly is and  what he truly wants because he will always tell you what he thinks you want to hear and behave how he thinks you want him to behave. He knows you want to have his babies so he lets you think that he wants that too but men in their fifties do not want to start having children. I'm in my fifties and no way in hell would I give up my freedom and peace to start having babies now. You are lost in some fantasyland with this guy and you are losing out. 

Oh the going to church together thing is just weird. Why do you attend church? Is it just a social gathering for you? Do you go just to please your MM? I'm thinking it must not have much to do with getting closer to God or having a spiritual relationship with God as most spiritual people see cheating and dishonesty as sinful and willfully being sinful is considered a separation from God. Not being preachy but I was raised in a holy roller church so I know the ins and outs of church going. It's not that people have to perfect to attend church, it would be one thing if you were trapped in affair and still went to church every week on your own to pray and maybe find guidance to help you get out of this situation. That's a lot different from attending every week WITH your MM. Attending with your MM is like having your affair in church and thumbing your nose at the fundamental beliefs the church holds. How do you explain this to yourself? 

I know him and have seen him in many situations. Not once he has taken a "quick" decision. FOor what it takes people a day, he takes an year. I am not exaggerating. I partially know why and although I don't like this, I am ok with it.

I wouldn't want him to leave in a state of infatuation either. I think only now it makes sense, because our connection has proven to be strong and deep.

I know the kids topic is a big deal. I know he never had the chance to be a father due to circumstances and it is scary he might be in his late 60s by the time our kids finish high school. But then his own father has done the same (had kids in his late 40s). Close to 50 years ago.. It's not that outrageous, but of course it is a huge life change.

For his church- there were some unrelated reasons (cultural immersion; gentle way to introduce me to people from his past) but also I think we both need spiritual guidance, badly

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, LynneVicious said:

This is so true. Divorce is so stressful, difficult and life changing. This affair is easy. 

Op, I gotta give it to you... usually after speaking with the boards, the ow starts seeing the affair for what it is, start questioning, start demanding more and then make changes. You, otoh, are firm in your belief that your love is true but for the ‘situation’. 

I have to agree with the other posters that he will not leave. He may say he will, but it’s usually, “I’ll talk with her next weekend” then “I can leave next month”. Then “I cant leave til spring because of xyz “  then all the mental gymnastics won’t change the fact that he just won’t leave  because he doesn’t want to.

Its a pattern. Always is. I think it’ll take that happening for you to see that your story is not unique, unfortunately. 

Do you truly believe he wants to leave even though it’s been 3 years??

I think that's all summed in a nutshell - "leaving is hard, staying it's easy". Unless he sees the reason to do it clearly, it won't happen. Is he seeing it? I think he is starting to.

He never made empty promises btw. He never gave me timeline. If he did and he didn't deliver - would be a huge red flag to me, but he didn't do that. 

I still think he will leave eventually. Any decision in his life has been 1) forced by circumstances 2) took years. Why would this be an exception?

[TamBuktu]

17 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Shouldn't the obvious reason be that he is in love with and wants to be with you?  No one in their right mind would want to live with a roommate when they can live with the love of their life.  Again, this makes no sense.

I have only had to do it once (and I wasn't married, nor in an affair) and I had all the questions spinning in my head:
- we are comfortable, maybe I should stay put
- he hasn't done anything bad to me
- we are compatible in terms of living together
- is his family going to hate me
- is he going to forgive me
-maybe I am making a mistake
- financial consequences
-how hard will be to start all over
...

You get the idea.

If I had this thoughts, to me his hesitation (in way more advanced relationship) must be really really hard.

Any other relationship breakup that he had to leave before was forced by circumstances: death, move or them living him.

Never before he had to initiate getting in or out of relationships, perhaps except initiating ours (although he insists I started it lol).

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I have only had to do it once (and I wasn't married, nor in an affair) and I had all the questions spinning in my head:
- we are comfortable, maybe I should stay put
- he hasn't done anything bad to me
- we are compatible in terms of living together
- is his family going to hate me
- is he going to forgive me
-maybe I am making a mistake
- financial consequences
-how hard will be to start all over
...

You get the idea.

If I had these thoughts and hesitation, to me his hesitation (in way more advanced relationship) must be really really hard.

Any other relationship breakup that he had to leave before was forced by circumstances: death, move or them living him.

Never before he had to initiate getting in or out of relationships, perhaps except initiating ours (although he insists I started it lol).

This was in response to stillafool, I lost the quote.

Edited November 15, 2021 by TamBuktu