It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

Just now, Wiseman2 said:

They are wrapping gifts together like a family. There's nothing here that indicates he's divorcing.

However he seems like an awful husband.

When they are together, do you have friends and family to spend time with on holidays,etc?

Nah, wrapping gifts for HER family. This was couple of years ago anyway.

Christmas, Valentines etc I still spend with him. I have been invited every year to spend them elsewhere too, yes, but I much rather spend them with him. He is the best when it comes to holidays, I've never seen someone so thoughtful and fun.

What do you mean by when they are together?

[Starswillshine]

Tam, the more you write here, the more this fantasy you have created and convinced yourself of... and tried to convince us of... unravels. 

[Starswillshine]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

This is confusing.  Didn't he already donate sperm for a baby that you both want when you get together?  So now you are having unprotected sex with him and neither of you care?  If that is the case you will end up pregnant and perhaps when he knows the child you both want is on it's way he will divorce and be with you.  Isn't that what you want?

I believe at one point she admitted these embryos were created prior to the romantic relationship. Sounds more like a situation of... one day I want kids, and your genetics seem great, can you help? Hence the signing away of parental rights. They were not even invovled.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

This is confusing.  Didn't he already donate sperm for a baby that you both want when you get together?  So now you are having unprotected sex with him and neither of you care?  If that is the case you will end up pregnant and perhaps when he knows the child you both want is on it's way he will divorce and be with you.  Isn't that what you want?

No. The fertility treatment was for preservation only. Hard to explain the medical reasons here.

I won't get pregnant unexpectedly lol. I am tracking hormones etc so I know when I can and when I cannot have unprotected sex. It's my thing, I coach other people about it too, so I am not the least concerned. He doesn't realize all of that though.

I don't want unexpected pregnancy because I still have the lingering fear he might back off when it gets real, and then who will be the one to suffer?-our child..

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

Tam, the more you write here, the more this fantasy you have created and convinced yourself of... and tried to convince us of... unravels. 

If you fully abstract for a second from the MM-OW-BW moral dilemma, where do you see that?

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't. I have my opinion formed years ago. I am just painting a picture here. 

To me is fascinating how biased people are when hearing the word "wife". If i wrote the same thing (i.e. giving orders, never being present etc) outside of the affair context - I'm sure the opinions will be completely different.

You talk about his wife all the time.  She barely knows you are alive but she lives in your mind 24/7.  She isn't bothering you and is the innocent one in this and doesn't deserve what her husband is doing with you behind her back.  Instead of laying low and being thankful you get to spend as much time as you want with her husband you continue to talk badly about her as if you live in their house with them and actually know what's going on.  Why don't you leave her out of it?  She hasn't done anything to you.

[elaine567]

13 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I meant he is not concerned having unprotected sex...

MM often aren't and it is not usually because they are invested and wanting children with the OW, like she may believe to be the case, it is because it is more enjoyable  for him and most MM are  very used to having unprotected sex...
Once she gets pregnant, she realises he was not as invested as she thought.
Be careful here.
Assume nothing.

[stillafool]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't want unexpected pregnancy because I still have the lingering fear he might back off when it gets real, and then who will be the one to suffer?-our child..

You've said multiple times that he would never leave his child and even takes care of old girlfriends and others kids so this statement doesn't add up.

[Minneloa]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If you fully abstract for a second from the MM-OW-BW moral dilemma, where do you see that?

With all due respect, how is this possible? The moral dilemma is fundamentally embedded in your situation. To deny this seems like, well, a fantasy.

[stillafool]

10 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

I believe at one point she admitted these embryos were created prior to the romantic relationship. Sounds more like a situation of... one day I want kids, and your genetics seem great, can you help? Hence the signing away of parental rights. They were not even invovled.

Oh I see or forgot.  He just donated sperm with with no responsibility to you.  He's not the one who wants a kid.  He isn't leaving his wife.  Elaine is right MM are not used to pulling out, using condoms or anything else that will restrict their pleasure.  Don't get your hopes up that this means more than it does.

[elaine567]

6 minutes ago, stillafool said:

She hasn't done anything to you.

She has the audacity to exist and that is enough to stimulate the obsession and the hatred...
She needs banished and cast out ..and never spoken about again.
SHE is ruining things...

BUT HE chooses to go home to her every night and that is a huge thorn in the OPs side... she has no idea what they get up to...hence the obsession.

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

I need to work with his strengths and not try to build up on features that are not there so to speak.

You do not need to work on anything. He is a grown man, he doesn’t need you to build his confidence or whatever else you believe you can do. You have no control here. You can not, you should not even try, to change this man. It will not work. 

One minute you say you love this man, and the next you are planning how to change certain aspects of his personality. You can not change his personality Tam. 

 

57 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

That's kind of sums up how they interact. She demands things ("we" planned, you will do it). He sneaks out with half-lies (he was going to his "other house" but not the one she'd think of lol). To me that sounds like a mother/child not partner/partner dynamics.

Sounds pretty much how you will interact, you are already doing it. You demand things (he should divorce and be a family with you) and he gives you a bunch of half lies. You sound like a parent trying to mold your partner into the man you want him to be - and he drags his heels, he refuses to talk with you in a direct and honest way, he’s not going to do what you want him to do. You are trying to parent him and he is not obeying - 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

32 minutes ago, stillafool said:

You talk about his wife all the time.  She barely knows you are alive but she lives in your mind 24/7.  She isn't bothering you and is the innocent one in this and doesn't deserve what her husband is doing with you behind her back.  Instead of laying low and being thankful you get to spend as much time as you want with her husband you continue to talk badly about her as if you live in their house with them and actually know what's going on.  Why don't you leave her out of it?  She hasn't done anything to you.

I actually agree with you.

I was trying to paint a picture and underestimated how triggering the topics (BW, sexual side of it etc) can be. So I will leave these topics alone and only bring up points if specifically asked.

What matters to me is the dynamics between me and him anyway.

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He is the best when it comes to holidays, I've never seen someone so thoughtful and fun.

If only he would file for divorce…

Honestly Tam, I do not understand the attraction. I read above where you say you are worried that he may go back to his kids with his wife. I would be concerned that he would leave and go back to his wife. He is a weak and spineless man - he is exactly the type to strike out on his own only to run home to mommy for comfort, approval, to ease his stress and anxiety. 

If he ever does leave her, which I do not believe he intends to do, that is truly only the beginning of your worries… 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

You do not need to work on anything. He is a grown man, he doesn’t need you to build his confidence or whatever else you believe you can do. You have no control here. You can not, you should not even try, to change this man. It will not work. 

One minute you say you love this man, and the next you are planning how to change certain aspects of his personality. You can not change his personality Tam. 

 

Sounds pretty much how you will interact, you are already doing it. You demand things (he should divorce and be a family with you) and he gives you a bunch of half lies. You sound like a parent trying to mold your partner into the man you want him to be - and he drags his heels, he refuses to talk with you in a direct and honest way, he’s not going to do what you want him to do. You are trying to parent him and he is not obeying - 

 

I can't find the right words. If a partner grows together with the other one, in my understanding that's not an attempt for a change. I am more confident now that I have him by my side. I am more confident because I know he accepts and loves me no matter what, not because he "forced" me to change in my current self. 

That's why I didn't make the so called demands for years.

I think I went too far in the opposite direction actually, I never disclosed how I really feel about certain things - including how I feel about him, what my desired future family entails etc. I kept this to myself, like I have always been doing... It's just my time to open up, and it appears like "demands and parenting..."

[RebeccaR]

45 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Nah, wrapping gifts for HER family.

When people are married their spouse’s family is also their family. Just like blood family, they may or may not get along,  spend more or less time together. You keep speaking as if they’re not really a couple because this is how you justify your affair and his lack of monogamy, but until they formally separate or divorce, they’re married.

[Starswillshine]

32 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If you fully abstract for a second from the MM-OW-BW moral dilemma, where do you see that?

While I do believe affairs are completely wrong, I put the blame on the married partner and not the affair partner. I know and understand that the married person lies and twists truths to create a picture for the OW to make the situation morally acceptable for the OW. Even in my case where my xH told the OW he was happily married and has no intention of ever divorcing (this came from the OW herself, I could never believe any word from my xH), I still didn't blame her for the affair. I only blame her for the non stop harassment of me even long after I divorced his lying, manipulative rear. But even still, I have some understanding why she has gone a little psycho and deranged... because he is a first class manipulator. 

That being said... let's lay out some of the things you have said in this thread (and I do not have time to go through all of them as I have to get to business)....

You created embryos together equalling he wants to be a father to your kids one day. When in fact, this happened prior to your relationship and this equals sermon donation further evident by him signing parental rights.  

You mentioned you have met friends and family. But never as his partner. 

You say he never mentions his "complication " to his friends. But it turns out these friends are friends that you have made as a couple. Of course he would not mention he was married, these people know you as a couple. 

You paint them as having completely separate lives, so much so, you believe she knows and is OK with your affair. However, your posts about her calling him about wrapping presents together does not suggest this. Also, it is common for couples to have differing hobbies. Married people do not spend 100% of their free time together. It is completely healthy and normal to have a life outside of your spouse. 

You make him out to be this poor helpless guy who cannot leave a relationship and always help other people. I have experience with this with my ex husband. He will never leave any sort of relationship or cut people out... he has a great need for people to idolize him. Every person who has ever left his life is because they get tired of his crap. 

I believe this man is manipulating you. And because you seem to be quite intelligent, the arrogance of that is not allowing you to see it. In other words, "I'm pretty smart, I would know if I am getting manipulated. "

[TamBuktu]

37 minutes ago, stillafool said:

You've said multiple times that he would never leave his child and even takes care of old girlfriends and others kids so this statement doesn't add up.

Yeah it doesn't. I have a huge blockage on the topic, that's all... I don't think it's a real risk but it gives me anxiety regardless.

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's just my time to open up, and it appears like "demands and parenting..."

It’s “demands and parenting” because he is married to another woman. You have essentially “set your sights” on another woman’s husband. If you were in a legit relationship with the man and he was giving you the cues that he was equally invested in the same goals and he was also progressing the relationship, it would be a joint venture. As it stands now, he seems content for things to stay as they are - based on the fact that he has not filed and refuses to discuss his plans to divorce his wife. Because he is married to another woman and he is required to leave his marriage in order to have the relationship you want to have with the man - your “plans” sounds like “demands and parenting.”

Honestly Tam, you have used the word “plan” so many times in this discussion. And because he has yet to file for divorce, it sounds more like your plan than his. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, Starswillshine said:

While I do believe affairs are completely wrong, I put the blame on the married partner and not the affair partner. I know and understand that the married person lies and twists truths to create a picture for the OW to make the situation morally acceptable for the OW. Even in my case where my xH told the OW he was happily married and has no intention of ever divorcing (this came from the OW herself, I could never believe any word from my xH), I still didn't blame her for the affair. I only blame her for the non stop harassment of me even long after I divorced his lying, manipulative rear. But even still, I have some understanding why she has gone a little psycho and deranged... because he is a first class manipulator. 

That being said... let's lay out some of the things you have said in this thread (and I do not have time to go through all of them as I have to get to business)....

You created embryos together equalling he wants to be a father to your kids one day. When in fact, this happened prior to your relationship and this equals sermon donation further evident by him signing parental rights.  

You mentioned you have met friends and family. But never as his partner. 

You say he never mentions his "complication " to his friends. But it turns out these friends are friends that you have made as a couple. Of course he would not mention he was married, these people know you as a couple. 

You paint them as having completely separate lives, so much so, you believe she knows and is OK with your affair. However, your posts about her calling him about wrapping presents together does not suggest this. Also, it is common for couples to have differing hobbies. Married people do not spend 100% of their free time together. It is completely healthy and normal to have a life outside of your spouse. 

You make him out to be this poor helpless guy who cannot leave a relationship and always help other people. I have experience with this with my ex husband. He will never leave any sort of relationship or cut people out... he has a great need for people to idolize him. Every person who has ever left his life is because they get tired of his crap. 

I believe this man is manipulating you. And because you seem to be quite intelligent, the arrogance of that is not allowing you to see it. In other words, "I'm pretty smart, I would know if I am getting manipulated. "

Star, did your ex-H showed signs of cheating prior to the OW disclosing it to you? Also, was he manipulative with you before the affair happened? I am just trying to understand the other side.

"You make him out to be this poor helpless guy who cannot leave a relationship and always help other people. I have experience with this with my ex husband. He will never leave any sort of relationship or cut people out... he has a great need for people to idolize him. Every person who has ever left his life is because they get tired of his crap. " - if you can elaborate a bit on this, will be very helpful. I see some similarities unfortunately.

Yeah, I might be a little arrogant in some aspects. Or I just can't see it as a manipulation. Or I am just too happy to admit it is. I don't know.

The events above might not make much sense also because the order is different. In real life it has really been a bizarre interaction, as said I knew him for years before getting involved with him and it has always been the same.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I think I went too far in the opposite direction actually, I never disclosed how I really feel about certain things - including how I feel about him, what my desired future family entails etc. I kept this to myself, like I have always been doing... It's just my time to open up, and it appears like "demands and parenting..."

This is called a bait and switch. You presented yourself as one person, then changed into who you really are.
It doesn't tend to go down well with the person who has been tricked. 

[BaileyB]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

This is called a bait and switch. You presented yourself as one person, then changed into who you really are.
It doesn't tend to go down well with the person who has been tricked. 

Indeed, he thought he had found another woman who understood he was married to another and would be content to have him visit her regularly. Turns out, she has expectations and that wasn’t really what he was looking for - 

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It’s “demands and parenting” because he is married to another woman. You have essentially “set your sights” on another woman’s husband. If you were in a legit relationship with the man and he was giving you the cues that he was equally invested in the same goals and he was also progressing the relationship, it would be a joint venture. Because he is married to another woman and he is required to leave his marriage in order to have the relationship you want to have with the man - it sounds like “demands and parenting.”

Honestly Tam, you have used the word “plan” so many times in this discussion. And because he has yet to file for divorce, it sounds more like your plan than his. 

I had similar experience when in a relationship with a "free" man. I can't communicate my needs well. That's how I approach work projects and I can't abstract from it. I see situations and people as models. I just need to work on myself, which I will but it will take years, whereas my relationship situation is fairly urgent.
 

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

This is called a bait and switch. You presented yourself as one person, then changed into who you really are.
It doesn't tend to go down well with the person who has been tricked. 

I don't see it this way. People change over time, I surely did.

[TamBuktu]

49 minutes ago, Minneloa said:

With all due respect, how is this possible? The moral dilemma is fundamentally embedded in your situation. To deny this seems like, well, a fantasy.

When I started writing here, that was my goal - to strip the situation to merely factual, abstract from emotions, moral dilemmas etc. Take it as a model to build on.

You are right it doesn't seem to be working. I struggle with abstracting as much as anyone else here.