It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's ok to just want to talk to people when he's not around and there's a void, even if you don't really want help or insight. 

He goes back to his wife, the bubble is over for the day and loneliness sets in. All part of being the mistress.

So continuing the bubble feeling by talking about him using the bubble idiosyncratic language, etc. seems to fill the vacancy when he goes home to his wife.

Sorry I didn't get the drift lol - now the forum is supposed to be filling a void? Nah, I have too much other stuff to do. I have repeated it many times but on day to day basis, I have never felt as happy and fulfilled as in these few years - my opinion hasn't changed:)

[TamBuktu]

10 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Serious question - do the pros outweighs the cons for you? 

Consider this, your friend is in a relationship with a man who is lazy, indecisive, and unmotivated. He doesn’t know what he wants, refuses to communicate, and is non-committal. As a result, the relationship is vey one sided and you are concerned that she is wasting her youth/opportunity to have children. Add to that - she can’t trust him because he has a history of infidelity and she knows he can be very deceptive…

BUT - he is caring toward her (even though he won’t communicate with her or commit to the relationship/the things she wants most in life), he is kind to people, and she is happy when they are together. 

What would you say to your friend? Would you say - good decision! The fact that he gives you some attention and affection negates all the other negative qualities and red flags -

On your question, by this point in time - no. Otherwise there won't be a discussion.

If I had a friend that asked for a situation like this (and I have had quite a few, for a variety of relationship problems) - my approach is generally to ask them if there is an abuse, and if not - i leave it to their choice, only asking them for details until I build a full, unbiased picture. In the above case - I don't think we have one because unfortunately there is strong negative bias towards the fact he's married and that clouds everything else.


Anyway, I guess the one thing we all digressed from is that he might actually have legit reasons for his behavior. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

 the fact he's married and that clouds everything else.

Yes, it's an inconvenient fact but the topic is posted in an other man/woman forum and your thread and it's dilemmas are about the fact that he's married, no?

If he were single, would he marry you? That's another dilemma in itself. He may stay married, he may divorce one day, but all of that is irrelevant if your goals of being married and having a family with him don't materialize.

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Yes, it's an inconvenient fact but the topic is posted in an other man/woman forum and your thread and it's dilemmas are about the fact that he's married, no?

If he were single, would he marry you? That's another dilemma in itself. He may stay married, he may divorce one day, but all of that is irrelevant if your goals of being married and having a family with him don't materialize.

Yes. I just think it biases people immediately before considering why the things are as they are.

If he were single, we would have faced similar issues I believe. He’d still be indecisive, waiting for something to drop or me to push (and I’m not a pushy person) to make a change etc. Of course the barrier would have been lower.

[RebeccaR]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes. I just think it biases people immediately before considering why the things are as they are.

If he were single, we would have faced similar issues I believe. He’d still be indecisive, waiting for something to drop or me to push (and I’m not a pushy person) to make a change etc. Of course the barrier would have been lower.

Even before reading this response, I was going to say: we would be giving the exact same advice if he were single: he’s not going to marry you because he doesn’t want to change his current life. Could we all be wrong about that? Sure, we’re not him. But if you’re asking for our assessment, that’s the unanimous response.

Edited November 17, 2021 by RebeccaR

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If he were single, we would have faced similar issues I believe. He’d still be indecisive, waiting for something to drop or me to push.

You seem to imply he's a whimp, is that true or does he just not want to do what you want him to do?

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If he were single, we would have faced similar issues I believe. He’d still be indecisive, waiting for something to drop or me to push (and I’m not a pushy person) to make a change etc. Of course the barrier would have been lower.

Actually that will be the next hurdle you face.
He may decide to divorce his wife, but does he then want to career headlong into another marriage with you...
He will be single, he can do as he pleases.
Will a convenient evening bolthole to get away from his wife, translate into a marriage with all the commitment that entails?

[elaine567]

On 11/16/2021 at 12:08 PM, TamBuktu said:

. I know from my style of writing he sounds like a passive "loser". That's not how he is in real life. He is passive, yes, but over the course of his life he has achieved considerable professional success, degrees, etc. He eventually gets what he wants, just in a very slow way.. Like he doesn't face the difficulty but waits a circumstance to drop. That's how he made his career - on the surface, it was a matter of luck, from knowing him - it was just a good strategy - when to wait, and when to strike.

He is no wimp IMO.
People who appear, passive, submissive or who seem to be push overs, may actually be none of these,.
They can be very self assured and may merely bide their time, and can stubbornly dig in their heels if they do not get what they really want.
This man I guess is in no hurry to blow up his marriage, so is passively resisting atm.  The status quo likely suits him.

[TamBuktu]

21 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You seem to imply he's a whimp, is that true or does he just not want to do what you want him to do?

Neither.

He has done the same in any other relationship. That’s why his only successful ones were with very experienced women 15-25 years his senior.

What’s the root cause of it- I have my suspicions but doesn’t matter. It’s how he is.

 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

He is no wimp IMO.
People who appear, passive, submissive or who seem to be push overs, may actually be none of these,.
They can be very self assured and may merely bide their time, and can stubbornly dig in their heels if they do not get what they really want.
This man I guess is in no hurry to blow up his marriage, so is passively resisting atm.  The status quo likely suits him.

I agree he’s no wimp. He’s very persistent and tactical.

He also has huge blockages when it comes to any change. If this was the first time he is like this, I’d say it’s me or the marriage. But it’s a pattern that started way before both.

[RebeccaR]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Neither.

He has done the same in any other relationship. That’s why his only successful ones were with very experienced women 15-25 years his senior.

What’s the root cause of it- I have my suspicions but doesn’t matter. It’s how he is.

 

What makes you think he will break these very ingrained patterns at this point?

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

What makes you think he will break these very ingrained patterns at this point?

Gut feeling. In the end of the day if he wanted the same as before, he’d have had an affair with another older divorced woman. He knew what he’s getting into (I don’t but that it was for sex/youth for a number of reasons).

[elaine567]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He also has huge blockages when it comes to any change.

Could he be on the Autistic spectrum?

[RebeccaR]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Gut feeling. In the end of the day if he wanted the same as before, he’d have had an affair with another older divorced woman. He knew what he’s getting into (I don’t but that it was for sex/youth for a number of reasons).

The word affair is the point here. I agree he wants an affair with a younger woman (you). But there’s no indication he wants *marriage* with a younger woman. 
 

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Could he be on the Autistic spectrum?

In my opinion and I could be wrong is trauma.

He keeps referring to being "promoted" to be the man of the family when he was very very young and clearly not ready for that change.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

The word affair is the point here. I agree he wants an affair with a younger woman (you). But there’s no indication he wants *marriage* with a younger woman. 
 

Still the obvious choice would have been younger attached woman then. This wasn't an impulsive choice.

[RebeccaR]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Still the obvious choice would have been younger attached woman then. This wasn't an impulsive choice.

Maybe there weren’t that many affair partner options? Most women aren’t eager to date a married man and maybe MM didn’t want to deal with a betrayed husband in any event.

[elaine567]

The "choice" of an OW is often more down to opportunity rather than actual choice.

[elaine567]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

In my opinion and I could be wrong is trauma.

He keeps referring to being "promoted" to be the man of the family when he was very very young and clearly not ready for that change.

Could be.
Have you ever really analysed him from a "spectrum" standpoint? 

[Crazelnut]

Ok, so you want communication tips. Here's one -- learn to communicate directly and assertively. Any partner that you have to manipulate (yes, that's what you're doing) and with whom you cannot express your deepest needs is not a good partner.

You say you're deliriously happy, and yet here you are. You said you wanted to deal with this factually. Ok. Fact: he is married and making absolutely no effort to change that. Fact: you are a mistress, dealing with mistress things, like guilt at church and lying by omission to friends, and those don't feel good. Fact: you want a child and he already signed away his parental rights. This love for the ages is going nowhere. But I suspect it doesn't matter. You'll stay in this run-of-the-mill affair, until one day the real truth dawns on you, but it will be too late. 

[BaileyB]

^^ I could not agree more crazelnut. Well said.

If I may, I would add - 

3 hours ago, Crazelnut said:

Any partner that you have to manipulate (yes, that's what you're doing) and with whom you cannot express your deepest needs is not a good partner.

Any relationship for which you must speak in code and never discuss the real issues (and the fact that he is married and will need to divorce in order for you to legitimately be together is a really significant issue) is not a mature or healthy relationship. 

3 hours ago, Crazelnut said:

Fact: you want a child

If that is your goal - there are other, better options, than a 50 year old man who is married to another woman. Even if he was a single fifty year old man who was living the bachelor lifestyle and had never before made the decision to have a child, he would be a very unwise choice. If you are honest with yourself, and assess the situation rationally as you say you are trying to do, you would see this. But you don’t see this, because you are making an emotionally driven decision. When you write a list of cons like the one that you wrote above and the pro is “he cares for me and I feel happy when we are together” - despite all this talk about “facts,” you are making an emotionally driven decision.

You may in fact get along well - but you are not compatible as it relates to the things that really matter - the things that make him a reliable partner and the things that make this a successful, legitimate relationship. This happens all the time - people are drawn together but for any number of different reasons, they can not/should not be together. If I met a man who was fun and sweet to me, but he could not hold a steady job, had significant debt, lived far away from me, was dealing with the challenge of settling a divorce, etc… it would not matter that we had fun together and he was kind to me. My head would say - WOAH, too many red flags here, this is not going to work. The truth of your situation - there are so many red flags here that you are just ignoring, because it doesn’t support the fantasy that you have created for yourself. And that is going to cause you a whole world of pain. 

So yes, continue on if you must and I expect that you will do. But, your rational mind is screaming at you that there is a problem here - ignore that at your own peril. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by BaileyB

[ExpatInItaly]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The "choice" of an OW is often more down to opportunity rather than actual choice.

Bingo. 

And who is to say he hasn't already tried on another OW and she shot him down? 

OP, just because you said yes to him does not mean there weren't others before you who told him to go fly a kite. 

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

The "choice" of an OW is often more down to opportunity rather than actual choice.

Well there were options.. But doesn't matter really, could be a combination of choice and opportunity, the fact is he got involved with a woman that is unmarried, in childbearing age and wants kids.

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Could be.
Have you ever really analysed him from a "spectrum" standpoint? 

Never before today. I had a very busy day but from my assessment - there are some suspicious features like repetitiveness in behaviors, extreme observational skills in some aspects and missing in other etc.

I won't do armchair psychology but it might still help me read for alternative communication strategies if he's indeed on the spectrum, this was a good idea.

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Never before today. I had a very busy day but from my assessment - there are some suspicious features like repetitiveness in behaviors, extreme observational skills in some aspects and missing in other etc.

I won't do armchair psychology but it might still help me read for alternative communication strategies if he's indeed on the spectrum, this was a good idea.

I would also consider his strange communication style, difficulties expressing his feelings, tendency to avoid change/stay in relationships and jobs…
 

You realize, I’m sure, that if he is on the spectrum both that and his age would increase the risk of having children who are also on the Autism Spectrum. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by BaileyB