It's complicated - insight needed

[RebeccaR]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes but it’s done already. If I do what you’re suggesting, to me that feels like a coercion. I’d have to think about it

In other words, you can’t threaten to leave (until he’s divorced) because he’s come to rely on your companionship? What about your own life?? You are making yourself a prisoner to him in this crazy scenario where you can’t leave because he’ll be - upset? I can’t even 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

He is responsible of course but she took advantage of him in a very low point of his life. He fell in love with someone who couldn't have kids and then after she passed, he kept recreating the relationship and his current W took advantage. How moral this was - I'll leave it to your judgement

This is doubtful considering older women is what he's attracted to.  Otherwise after going through the death of an older wife, like a lot of men in his shoes, he would have opted for a younger wife so he wouldn't be put in that situation again.  Instead he choose, courted, fell in love and asked an older woman again to marry him.  She too fell in love with him so she accepted.  I know it makes YOU feel better to think she took advantage of him.  She had no control over his deep feelings of love for her.

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, stillafool said:

This is doubtful considering older women is what he's attracted to.  Otherwise after going through the death of an older wife, like a lot of men in his shoes, he would have opted for a younger wife so he wouldn't be put in that situation again.  Instead he choose, courted, fell in love and asked an older woman again to marry him.  She too fell in love with him so she accepted.  I know it makes YOU feel better to think she took advantage of him.  She had no control over his deep feelings of love for her.

I’m laughing here. His feelings are as deep as it gets lol. Then I get blamed for projecting, but what you just did is any different? He wasn’t married to the other woman mentioned. Not proposed to the current one.

[BaileyB]

55 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If I do what you’re suggesting, to me that feels like a coercion.

I call it, making the best decision for you. Maybe that’s selfish.

As I’ve shared on this site before, when I met my partner he was signing divorce papers. It was a long and difficult divorce, he thought he was ready for another relationship at the time but when he found someone he with whom he would consider having a serious relationship, he realized he wasn’t ready. He wanted to continue to see each other, but he did not want to commit to anything serious. I said - “that’s fine, I respect your decision. But, it’s not what I want for my life.” He respected my decision, we said goodbye amicably and he did not contact me - until he had his life sorted and he was ready to be in a serious relationship. He says now that we would likely not be together today if he hasn’t taken that time to settle his affair, deal with his anger/grief/emotions, etc… 

Did I coerce in him anything - no. I set a healthy boundary for myself, he knew what I wanted from a relationship and we treated each other with mutual respect. 

The difference, I was not willing to sacrifice my hopes and dreams to stay in a relationship that was not what I wanted. I didn’t think that was a healthy decision for me. Sure, I could have stayed on and waited and attempted to manipulate him into doing as I wanted - but that’s not what I chose for myself. This is not the relationship that I want for myself.

The challenge here - you put the cart before the horse. You are already too invested/inappropriately invested with this man which makes it difficult to now go back and negotiate the boundaries and expectations of the relationship. And, considering that your relationship is dependent on him filing for divorce - if you end the relationship with the intention that this will pressure him to file for divorce and chose you - that is coercion. If you end the relationship because you plan to move forward to create a different/healthier future for yourself, that’s not coercion. That’s just making the best decision you can make for yourself. 

But truly, the best and healthiest thing for you to do for yourself is to walk away - if he intends to be with you, he will do what is required to make that happen. It is actually the best gift that you could give him - the space and time to make his own decision and settle his own affairs. Again, he is a big boy, he can take care of himself. When my now partner was dealing with the end of his divorce, we respected each other enough to keep a healthy boundary. I respected him enough not to overstep. His marriage and his divorce was absolutely none of my business. It was his to deal with - he didn’t ask me to hold his hand because he didn’t need me to hold his hand. He respected me enough not to dump his problems on me and involve me in the middle of his mess. If he had asked me to hold his hand, I wouldn’t have done it. That’s a huge red flag to me - I want a responsible, grown man who is capable and has the skills to deal with his own responsibilities. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I said I don't know how many times 1) he has never been the pursuer 2) he ended up with few much older women 3) besides the first one it all stems from his past experience

Where do you see contradiction?

 

From you Tam"

On 10/29/2021 at 7:05 AM, TamBuktu said:

The one with least money here is Wife
   15 years older than him, now he wanted to feel young, >>>> Very not true.. He chose AP out of comfort zone of preference for older

      

 

On 10/29/2021 at 10:40 AM, TamBuktu said:

Wife is way more of a show piece, verry quirky AP here:) He doesn't consider youth a plus, he has chosen only older women in his past love life besides AP.

Yes, it's bothersome he's not cutting ties. It's clear what keeps Wife in. But what keeps MM in?? Love? Habit? Fear of change in the verge of entering his 50s? Social stigma?

 

On 10/29/2021 at 10:50 AM, TamBuktu said:

She was divorcee with adult kids in her 50s, if you need context. Beautiful yes. She's beautiful now, age is just a number. He was in some kind of a hole and she provided comfort. Love? Maybe, companion love.
 

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by stillafool

[RebeccaR]

Tam, isn’t he at a low point now (his “nightmare”, his “problem”)? But he doesn’t even want to speak of leaving that for happiness with you. Why not?

Or, even if his marriage is indeed not great, you are making it bearable for him. He doesn’t need to leave his nightmare marriage now he’s found nightly solace in your arms.

You refuse to see him as anything but caught in tragic circumstances, tossed by the winds and unable to function. Stop thinking of him this way, for your own sake.

[elaine567]

Bottom line here is that Tam is still the OW, nothing has essentially changed.
 There is no progress forward whatsoever.
We all here may have a better understanding of the man and the challenges faced, but he has not moved one inch towards making this relationship more than just a MM/OW one.
Tam like so many OWs is providing a convenient bolthole away from the stresses of his life and marriage...
If she ramps up the stress, then he may just find a better bolthole...

[TamBuktu]

56 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Tam, isn’t he at a low point now (his “nightmare”, his “problem”)? But he doesn’t even want to speak of leaving that for happiness with you. Why not?

Or, even if his marriage is indeed not great, you are making it bearable for him. He doesn’t need to leave his nightmare marriage now he’s found nightly solace in your arms.

You refuse to see him as anything but caught in tragic circumstances, tossed by the winds and unable to function. Stop thinking of him this way, for your own sake.

Nightmare that he can't wake up from by his own words.

I walked that walk. The people around me considered me happy. I was dying from the inside and yet had to stay because I couldn't own my mistake at that time around. A very close person to me walked that walk too. She said she wouldn't leave because of peer pressure etc and then was relieved when he passed. TO me these are real life nightmare stories. I can fully relate with him, for that reason..

When you have a reason out it's not a nightmare - it's a fight. When you DON'T have a clear reason out is when the nightmare starts... And for some people never ends, they just call it life

I lived it, I know the feeling so well  And also I know not everyone can relate - maybe the reason I understand him so well is our personality types are quite similar

[TamBuktu]

34 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Bottom line here is that Tam is still the OW, nothing has essentially changed.
 There is no progress forward whatsoever.
We all here may have a better understanding of the man and the challenges faced, but he has not moved one inch towards making this relationship more than just a MM/OW one.
Tam like so many OWs is providing a convenient bolthole away from the stresses of his life and marriage...
If she ramps up the stress, then he may just find a better bolthole...

Oh there has been a ton of progress:)

1) I had conversations with him that I couldn't gain the courage to have for a very long time
2) He verbalized for the first time desire for progress and action
3) I collected my own thoughts and refreshed my memory for details
4) I realized the two points of concern I can track without his help
5) I figured the value and strength of my commitment to him
And most importantly
6) I learned that whatever solid proof, facts, evidence is present, people are and will always be biased, and I just have to get to terms with it and carry on..

It's not the end of the fight, but definitely the beginning of it.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

) He verbalized for the first time desire for progress and action

All the rest is what YOU have done.
Desire is not action

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He said something in the lines that he’s so used to doing what he’s doing (deflecting hard topics, never giving straight answers

That's because he's so used to lying to his wife you and who knows who else. You have made no progress as far as your goal of getting married or having a family. 

[TamBuktu]

Yes, on the above I didn’t expect it to happen over the course of 2 weeks so I’m not surprised nor disappointed (for now).
 

I’m still holding on my year timeline

Spiderowl had a great post (it hurts a little but was still great) on the nature of the progress… Won’t be linear, won’t be fast, and won’t necessarily go in the direction of my choice

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

won’t necessarily go in the direction of my choice

Then why bother?

[BaileyB]

27 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Nightmare that he can't wake up from by his own words.

I walked that walk. The people around me considered me happy. I was dying from the inside and yet had to stay because I couldn't own my mistake at that time around. A very close person to me walked that walk too. She said she wouldn't leave because of peer pressure etc and then was relieved when he passed. TO me these are real life nightmare stories. I can fully relate with him, for that reason..

When you have a reason out it's not a nightmare - it's a fight. When you DON'T have a clear reason out is when the nightmare starts... And for some people never ends, they just call it life

I lived it, I know the feeling so well  And also I know not everyone can relate - maybe the reason I understand him so well is our personality types are quite similar

Words are just words - easily said.

I know you think your relationship is different and you dislike hearing how all affairs/people are the same… But read these boards - they are filled with men who tell their OW that they are trapped in a marriage of convenience, a nightmare that they couldn’t wake up from either. Still, when faced with a different option - very few men leave their marriages. 

You are projecting here. His experience is not your experience. Don’t assume that he thinks/feels like you do, or that he will act as you did - he is his own person and he will make his own decision. And - his inaction is a decision. You should see it as such.

[Veronica73]

I don't understand how it is such a nightmare. If it was a nightmare, he would leave. (Unless you really think there is some imminent violence that will happen. Which if that is the case, you might want to be concerned for your own safety and leave this situation and not be leaving all your money to him and his wife.) Also.isn't he around 15 years older than you? He can take care of himself. You act like he's not capable of making his own choices.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Veronica73

[stillafool]

14 minutes ago, Veronica73 said:

I don't understand how it is such a nightmare. If it was a nightmare, he would leave. (Unless you really think there is some imminent violence that will happen. Which if that is the case, you might want to be concerned for your own safety and leave this situation and not be leaving all your money to him and his wife.) Also.isn't he around 15 years older than you? He can take care of himself. You act like he's not capable of making his own choices.

I know basically mothering this guy at every point.  I don't understand how he could see his marriage as a nightmare when according to Tam he is never there except to sleep.  Does his wife haunt him in his sleep?  About the violence Tam said she can take care of herself and has no problem with defending herself.  Maybe she can defend them both when his wife's family comes after them.

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

 It makes me sick in the stomach thinking of the potential consequences

Or the potential revelations that will blow your fantasy about this guy to smithereens.

[basil67]

5 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He is responsible of course but she took advantage of him in a very low point of his life. He fell in love with someone who couldn't have kids and then after she passed, he kept recreating the relationship and his current W took advantage. How moral this was - I'll leave it to your judgement

How did his current wife take advantage of him?    

And to be fair, you're hardly in a position to be making suggestions about someone else's morals.    Let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone

[elaine567]

I think disentangling himself from the situation, is the "nightmare" of which he speaks

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Then why bother?

So I have no regrets and what ifs.

Also, if I gave up at unclear outcomes, I’d have been unemployed .. it’s my whole life, no hating it 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, Veronica73 said:

I don't understand how it is such a nightmare. If it was a nightmare, he would leave. (Unless you really think there is some imminent violence that will happen. Which if that is the case, you might want to be concerned for your own safety and leave this situation and not be leaving all your money to him and his wife.) Also.isn't he around 15 years older than you? He can take care of himself. You act like he's not capable of making his own choices.

I tried to explain my viewpoint above- nightmare is a situation you have no real reason to exit (the nightmare is the thought process behind it).

in a situation with a “real” reason like abuse etc it’s not easy but it’s straightforward. Here he’s comfortable on the surface, stuck in secrets and lies on the inside. It’s not a fun way to live.

Think of a boring job with a decent pay that you worked for 10 years. The inertia is a killer, even if you have an opportunity for brighter better future…

[BaileyB]

44 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

in a situation with a “real” reason like abuse etc it’s not easy but it’s straightforward. Here he’s comfortable on the surface, stuck in secrets and lies on the inside. It’s not a fun way to live.

Ok, but that’s not a nightmare. If he is feeling stuck by inertia, comfortable enough in his marriage that he does not want to file for divorce and upend his wife, his standard of living, etc… that is life. It’s not a nightmare.

Who needs a reason to end a marriage - people end marriages every single day because they have fallen out of love with their partner and they are not happy anymore. It should not be difficult - they have no children, he could file for divorce and find a new place to rest his head by the end of the week! If he has multiple properties and they live separately, he may not even have to find a new place. He can just tell her what is, and visit the lawyer. Why does it have to be so difficult - it’s not difficult. Just because he has yet to do it, does not mean that it is difficult to do.

If he was so unhappy with his life and his marriage, he would leave. As it stands now, he’s found a workable solution. You allow him to stay in his marriage by giving him an escape - a home cooked meal, some extra sex, a little love and attention - that seems to be enough for him considering that he has not made a single decision to change his circumstance in the past three years.

Edited November 19, 2021 by BaileyB

[ufo8mycat]

8 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

It’s beyond cruel to take this away from someone, if you “caught” them in a low point of their lives… Like he was when they met. And no, he didn’t “complain”, he’s not a complainer, but facts are still facts:(

He has chosen to hand over his agency. Unless of course he is being held against his will. You will fully overlook that he is choosing to stay. I married pretty young and when it turned out it was making me miserable in my 30s - I left: I sucked up the emotional and financial devastation and left. People do it every damn day. 
 

it wasn’t taken away, he has chosen to not take it up. Why do you not see that omissions are also actions. If he wanted to have a family, he could have. He has had decades to make these decisions. 

8 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

he’s the one that gives, gives, gives and ends up with losing himself. If I could get one thing out of this relationship- it will be to help him change that.

Poor bub with no control over his own own life and choices.  lucky there is a white knight in the wings. 
 

I guess we accept the love we think we deserve. This is not a man with any history of active decision making. You deserve more than an secret, insecure love. 

[elaine567]

Have you ever just asked him directly where he is going as he sneaks out of your house every night?  

Edited November 19, 2021 by elaine567

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Ok, but that’s not a nightmare. If he is feeling stuck by inertia, comfortable enough in his marriage that he does not want to file for divorce and upend his wife, his standard of living, etc… that is life. It’s not a nightmare.

Who needs a reason to end a marriage - people end marriages every single day because they have fallen out of love with their partner and they are not happy anymore. It should not be difficult - they have no children, he could file for divorce and find a new place to rest his head by the end of the week! If he has multiple properties and they live separately, he may not even have to find a new place. He can just tell her what is, and visit the lawyer. Why does it have to be so difficult - it’s not difficult. Just because he has yet to do it, does not mean that it is difficult to do.

If he was so unhappy with his life and his marriage, he would leave. As it stands now, he’s found a workable solution. You allow him to stay in his marriage by giving him an escape - a home cooked meal, some extra sex, a little love and attention - that seems to be enough for him considering that he has not made a single decision to change his circumstance in the past three years.

Bailey- with all respect, you’re missing my point.

Logistically is simple, correct. Emotionally- is much harder to leave okay situation then a horrible situation.

Okay situations are nightmare because you can’t really justify it to yourself, not every personality type have this struggles, but I certainly did. I’d say in retrospect this was the worst period of my life, and I’ve been through a lot objectively worse things- think all kinds of abuse, been there, continued relatively untouched; terminating things that were “okay” - total nightmare. I was stuck in lies and secrets and although I didn’t cheat (because I’m too sheltered and “good girl” type in my hear), I’m sure the other party didn’t enjoy our time together either. I’m sure the BW is “okay” but struggling too. 
 

I get where you’re coming from, I have people in my life that act exactly like this and more power on them, I’m not one of them nor is my AP.