It's complicated - insight needed

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Being through several health scares, major house projects, and family visits together plus you know, the ordinary thing in life like births, funerals, job changes.. I feel like we are truly on the way to committed partnership.

He is married to another woman. He can not be your partner if he is married to another woman. 

[elaine567]

9 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

"if it's your goal, then it's our goal"

Which is not quite the same as "It is my goal".

[introverted1]

On 11/18/2021 at 5:16 PM, TamBuktu said:

It is a sham marriage with an elderly woman who resides in one of his properties and  occasionally "mothers" him

Isn't he at least as much older than you as he is younger than his wife? If the age gap is what makes it a sham,how is what he has with you not also a sham?

[TamBuktu]

16 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

Isn't he at least as much older than you as he is younger than his wife? If the age gap is what makes it a sham,how is what he has with you not also a sham?

It’s not the age gap it’s the attitude. Lack of communication etc

[Minneloa]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It’s not the age gap it’s the attitude. Lack of communication etc

Lack of communication with whom? Isn’t that one of the root problems of your relationship with him?

[introverted1]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It’s not the age gap it’s the attitude. Lack of communication etc

How do you know what his communication with his wife is like?

From what you've said in this thread, his communication with you is not good.

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

How do you know what his communication with his wife is like?

From what you've said in this thread, his communication with you is not good.

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

I didn’t say it because I knew I’ll be ripped apart if I say it  

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I'm just trying to understand what has kept her / drawn her to a "relationship" like this.

The most important person to ask this to is yourself. Why are you drawn to a relationship like this?

[RebeccaR]

18 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

I didn’t say it because I knew I’ll be ripped apart if I say it  

Does she have illness and pains? Why do you assume so? People live into their 70s and 80s active, doing sports, traveling 

[RebeccaR]

20 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

I didn’t say it because I knew I’ll be ripped apart if I say it  

If this is your sales pitch, you should be pitching it to him, not us. Why not point out to him how much better his life will be with you than with her?

[pepperbird2]

Whatever you do, please DO NOT bring a child into this mess. To do so would be the height of selfishness.

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

If this is your sales pitch, you should be pitching it to him, not us. Why not point out to him how much better his life will be with you than with her?

Honestly? Because I feel guilt.

To me sounds like pressure tactic if I say it  If he thinks it- it’s a whole other story.

Anyhow, if opportunity arises, I’ll clarify his position on the kids topic.

[spiritedaway2003]

OP, you have to be careful not the keep making excuses for the man. He's a grown man.  I myself have been involved in a brief affair with a f(MM) so I've been there.  I love him like I've never loved anyone in my life, but that doesn't mean I don't try to see things for what they are. 

And what I see here is you making pages after pages of excuses for your MM.  The only actions he had taken is having that conversations with you (talk).  You are the one doing all the mental work of thinking and planning for what all the future might look like. He hasn't taken any (real) substantive actions in planning that future with you. 

Pause.  

Is that not accurate? 

I get that leaving a marriage can be difficult -- I think even for those who are ready to leave it, there is a sadness to the end of a relationship.  There is a huge emotional component, which isn't unexpected.  It's also difficult going against the inertia of a established life.   Even if he doesn't want to uproot his life by saying that there's someone else, he could still leave for himself.  If you mean that much to him, he would be taking actions to break away from his situation.  It's his life. It's his (supposedly) unhappy marriage.  He's a grown man. The reality is that he is exactly where he wanted to be right now. 

My opinion (and it's just an opinion) is that your waiting for another year is an exercise in futility.   If he started divorce proceedings and that process takes a year to complete, and you're willing to wait a year, fine.   But that process hasn't even started and your clock is ticking...I fear that a year from now, you'd just be in the same place.

Also, you said you wanted to give him time because the conversation is just in recent weeks.  That is also a rationale, believe it or not, and you don't need to convince us.  You just need to convince yourself that you're OK with it.  No one in an affair knows how it will all play out, but those in the affair had at least time to consider whether there is a potential future.  Clearly, you've thought about it. None of the things you're bringing up is a surprise to him given the length of the affair.  Trust me, he's thought about it.  He's just keeping you in the dark.  Your communication with your MM isn't as close as you think if you are worried about wording things a certain way to not hurt his feelings.

I won't add a lot more since I think this thread can go on and on about why he hasn't left (he's taking a backseat).  I'm going to ask you to ponder the same: why are you too taking such a backseat in your own life?

Edited November 20, 2021 by spiritedaway2003

[elaine567]

The problem with being the OW is that MM tend to tell the OW exactly what she wants to hear in order to keep her sweet and to keep the goodies coming his way.
I know your MM is different, but is he?
You don't really know, do you?
Just like there are so many things about him you don't know and some things  he still won't tell you even when you ask...

You want kids, he knows you want kids, he also knows if he says he doesn't want kids you will end it, so if he wants to keep things going he is going to say if pressed that he wants kids...

Edited November 20, 2021 by elaine567
typo

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

OP, you have to be careful not the keep making excuses for the man. He's a grown man.  I myself have been involved in a brief affair with a f(MM) so I've been there.  I love him like I've never loved anyone in my life, but that doesn't mean I don't try to see things for what they are. 

And what I see here is you making pages after pages of excuses after excuses for your MM.  The only actions he had taken is having that conversations with you (talk).  You are the one doing all the mental work of thinking and planning for what all the future might look like. He hasn't taken any (real) substantive actions in planning that future with you. 

Pause.  

Is that not accurate? 

I get that leaving a marriage can be difficult -- I think even for those who are ready to leave it, there is a sadness to it to the end of a relationship.  There is a huge emotional component, which isn't unexpected.  It's also difficult going against the inertia of a established life.   Even if he doesn't want to uproot his life by saying that there's someone else, he could still leave for himself.  If you mean that much to him, he would be taking actions to break away from his situation.  It's his life. It's his (supposedly) unhappy marriage.  He's a grown man. The reality is that he is exactly where he wanted to be right now. 

My opinion (and it's just an an opinion) is that your waiting for another year is an exercise in futility.   If he started divorce proceedings and that process takes a year to complete, and you're willing to wait a year, fine.   But that process hasn't even started and your clock is ticking...I fear that a year from now, you'd just be in the same place.

Also, you said you wanted to give him time because the conversation is just in recent weeks.  That is also a rationale, believe it or not, and you don't need to convince us.  You just need to convince yourself that you're OK with it.  No one in an affair knows how it will all play out, but those in the affair had at least time to consider whether there is a potential future.  Clearly, you've thought about it. None of the things you're bringing up is a surprise to him given the length of the affair.  Trust me, he's thought about it.  He's just keeping you in the dark.  Your communication with your MM isn't as close as you think if you are worried about wording things a certain way to not hurt his feelings.

I won't add a lot more since I think this thread can go on and on about why he hasn't left (he's taking a backseat).  I'm going to ask you to ponder the same: why are you too taking such a backseat in your own life?

It’s accurate. He’s keeping me in the dark, likely buying time to make a final decision.

How did it work out in your case?

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

It’s not the age gap it’s the attitude. Lack of communication etc

Can’t the same also be said for your relationship… lack of communication, lack of commitment, etc…

Edited November 20, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

Just now, BaileyB said:

Can’t the same also be said for your relationship… lack of communication, commitment, etc…

Yes. I’ll ask him exactly this. I swear I don’t know how to phrase it to keep it civil. Otherwise I’ll ask right now

[RebeccaR]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He’s keeping me in the dark, likely buying time to make a final decision.

Consider - that he has already made his final decision but is just not telling you. 

[introverted1]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

Do you know this?  Or do you assume it?

FWIW, this is the impression every MM tries to give his OW.  The marriage is dead, she doesn't understand me, we're just roommates, we don't have sex.  It's so common as to be trite.  It's rarely accurate.

Edited November 20, 2021 by introverted1

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Consider - that he has already made his final decision but is just not telling you. 

I have every reason to suspect it’s not the case. If it is- yes, it will be totally different for me 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

And yet, he chose this for himself and he has not made the decision to leave. 

If you want to look at the facts, those are the facts.

Edited November 20, 2021 by BaileyB

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

This is jealousy talking, you don't actually know what goes on in their marriage. 
 

[IrinaM]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

The reason it appears contradicting is because that's exactly how he is. He's not the typical "party guy" and also not the typical introvert. In a nutshell if he is out with friends at night - he will never drink, but he will pretend to do so so he can immerse in the company. Then his friends will start conversations and he'd just guide into some scandalous topic and enjoy people watching. It's literally how he describes it. He only goes out for people watching.
When he is on his own - he can't stay in silence, and can't stay without doing something manual. That's why all his "activities" - for whatever reason doing things, in unusual times, alone, relaxes him.
And then it comes the multiple hour long walks alone. That's how we started bonding because I was doing the same and we just converged to do it together.
So in a nutshell - he is a complete introvert that can pretend to be extrovert for the purpose of "people watching". He completely shifts depending on his surroundings.

He's the level of weird that keeps me on my toes, I feel like that's why I find him so fascinating. I'd never go out with a "party animal" - it's so not my style.

hun you don't realize how you sound. this loser is not some sort of magical "all things to all people." you are trying to imagine this "complicated" situation, this complex man. He defies all attempts to define him, because he's so unique! The situation itself is also magical and one-of-a-kind, and therefore cannot be understood by the minds of mere mortals.

This isn't complicated at all. This man is not some sort of onion to be peeled. He's just some dude that knows how to feed lines to desperate women. He's using you, this is fact. It's safe to say he's also using his wife, although you may not know what for. Just because you can't see her value doesn't mean he can't.

I actually do think you have an attempt at "winning" this prize, although it's remote, but it's possible. You just have to keep doing what you are doing and hope for the best. That gives you about a 1% chance, which is as good as it gets with a MM.

Don't you find it degrading to have to plot and scheme to win this dude? Isn't it demoralizing to have to force a basic conversation about the future? I don't know how you can view these "conversations" as a victory, I see it more as an indication of how little it takes to keep you happy.

[TamBuktu]

On 11/20/2021 at 1:00 PM, elaine567 said:

This is jealousy talking, you don't actually know what goes on in their marriage. 
 

Right, and it doesn't matter really. It's all about what's coming for us.

My research is painfully slow but yes she keeps residing on his main property, since there is an empty unit there is no easy way to tell whether they share or live fairly independently. She receives her mail elsewhere and he pays all the bills.

She's not on the deed of any of the properties like I expected but of course that still doesn't exclude other financial ties. 

My question is (please let's leave moral judgement aside) - what else is smart to research?  I need the right questions, the rest I can handle

 

[TamBuktu]

On 11/20/2021 at 3:59 PM, IrinaM said:

hun you don't realize how you sound. this loser is not some sort of magical "all things to all people." you are trying to imagine this "complicated" situation, this complex man. He defies all attempts to define him, because he's so unique! The situation itself is also magical and one-of-a-kind, and therefore cannot be understood by the minds of mere mortals.

This isn't complicated at all. This man is not some sort of onion to be peeled. He's just some dude that knows how to feed lines to desperate women. He's using you, this is fact. It's safe to say he's also using his wife, although you may not know what for. Just because you can't see her value doesn't mean he can't.

I actually do think you have an attempt at "winning" this prize, although it's remote, but it's possible. You just have to keep doing what you are doing and hope for the best. That gives you about a 1% chance, which is as good as it gets with a MM.

Don't you find it degrading to have to plot and scheme to win this dude? Isn't it demoralizing to have to force a basic conversation about the future? I don't know how you can view these "conversations" as a victory, I see it more as an indication of how little it takes to keep you happy.

It is possible he's using me and/or her, I just don't see what is he could be using me for.

I don't find it degrading actually, I find it challenging/interesting. I don't need much to be kept happy at this point of my life... It's really a first world problem. 

Onto keep doing what we've been doing. It has been an amazing weekend. I dropped the ball on the conversations to recharge but I still wasn't expecting things to go that good. Like it keeps me wondering for bad things lol. Is he that excited that I'm fighting for him?! Scared of my actions if I am not happy ?! Generally unaffected of our conversations ?! Or something else. Like he got a second wind...

I just don't understand this behavior. I am giving it another couple of days to recharge and I'll ask very directly.