It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

10 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I thought he told you to have children now if you want them? Or maybe he encouraged you to have kids now with him as a partner, just under the current unmarried circumstances? If I misunderstood, I apologize 

No worries. He never encouraged that. He's not very careful with protection and fantasized about kids sometimes, but I wouldn't take this as an encouragement. Our kid talks were equally cryptic as anything else lol, the more I write, the more I realize I created lots of the problems in the current situation.

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

That’s the thing the habit, guilt, fear would still apply “legally” married or not.

It’s fun for satisfying my curiosity but won’t solve anything 

Why would he even have a habit, guilt or fear in regards to her when you yourself say they never see each other or spend time together.  It sounds like the only thing she would miss is his paying all of her bills.  If the PI tells you he isn't legally tied to her that's an even more win win for you guys.  For your sake I hope you're correct that they aren't legally married.

[elaine567]

47 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I mean besides the last one and the not-curious one these are quality one would want in any life partner, no?

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

What else one would want from a "wife" material?

 

Problem is that many MM do not see their OW as wife material as hypocritically they do not want a long term relationship with someone who was content to sneak around and lie to all and sundry to maintain the affair.
It is fine for him to lie and cheat, but he is looking for a purer, more moral, less devious, more trustworthy woman as a partner.
The kind of a woman who would have turned him down flat when an affair was mooted.
It is a ridiculous, hypocritical and unfair stance but it is how some men see their OWs.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Why would he even have a habit, guilt or fear in regards to her when you yourself say they never see each other or spend time together.  It sounds like the only thing she would miss is his paying all of her bills.  If the PI tells you he isn't legally tied to her that's an even more win win for you guys.  For your sake I hope you're correct that they aren't legally married.

Thanks.. I hope so too

The habit is his living situation but also most certainly things weren’t like now in the beginning, I’m sure they were much closer and then something around 5-6-7 years ago (not me, not another woman) made their relationship go south. Somebody alluded about it, I need to ask one of his relatives (but again, won’t help me, it will be for curiosity reasons)

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

 

Problem is that many MM do not see their OW as wife material as hypocritically they do not want a long term relationship with someone who was content to sneak around and lie to all and sundry to maintain the affair.
It is fine for him to lie and cheat, but he is looking for a purer, more moral, less devious, more trustworthy woman as a partner.
The kind of a woman who would have turned him down flat when an affair was mooted.
It is a ridiculous, hypocritical and unfair stance but it is how some men see their OWs.

It could be… For what he considers me though I’m very “pure”, too “pure” for his liking… I had very few relationships in my life, the people I kissed I can count on one hand; he expressed a concern I’m not experienced enough (?!?) and he’s used to more experienced women but I’m learning (?!?). He wasn’t referring to sexual experiences btw, more so relational.

[Allupinnit]

25 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It could be… For what he considers me though I’m very “pure”, too “pure” for his liking… I had very few relationships in my life, the people I kissed I can count on one hand; he expressed a concern I’m not experienced enough (?!?) and he’s used to more experienced women but I’m learning (?!?). He wasn’t referring to sexual experiences btw, more so relational.

Forgive me for pointing this out but you have an answer for everything, every concern we mention you shoot it right down with how you already know the facts.  

He can't even tell you if he's legally married or not!  Please don't continue doing this to yourself.  

[elaine567]

34 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

… For what he considers me though I’m very “pure”, too “pure” for his liking… I had very few relationships in my life, the people I kissed I can count on one hand; he expressed a concern I’m not experienced enough (?!?) and he’s used to more experienced women but I’m learning (?!?). He wasn’t referring to sexual experiences btw, more so relational.

I was referring to "pure" as in not "polluted" or "contaminated" by having been in an affair...

Edited November 23, 2021 by elaine567

[Wiseman2]

37 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

he considers me though I’m very “pure”, too “pure” for his liking…

Lack of life experience? Because most mistresses aren't thought of as Snow White by their married lovers.

[flitzanu]

25 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Forgive me for pointing this out but you have an answer for everything, every concern we mention you shoot it right down with how you already know the facts.  

He can't even tell you if he's legally married or not!  Please don't continue doing this to yourself.  

no idea if the guy is even married?  aren't court docs like this public?  not sure of your area, but i can literally look someone up online and find their marriage ceritificate or divorce papers in the court system and don't need a private investigator

[stillafool]

54 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 He wasn’t referring to sexual experiences btw, more so relational.

Are you sure?  Didn't you say somewhere that you guys don't have much sex?  Maybe he wants you to be more assertive in that area.  Most MM like a lot of good sex with their mistress.

[stillafool]

17 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Lack of life experience? Because most mistresses aren't thought of as Snow White by their married lovers.

Right and they aren't looking for Snow White in a mistress.  The wife usually has that role.  They want strange hot sex on the side.  Something they can fantasize about later.

[stillafool]

4 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Of course I shift gears - the whole point of writing is collecting my thoughts, these are not facts set in stone. What I am writing is what I think at the moment of writing and it can change later in the thread or later in life (one example is I said I'll never use donor gametes - that's conditional on the ability to use mine - obviously I'll adapt if the circumstances change, all I can do is secure something to be in the 90% percentile)

So with this are you saying we should take everything you say with a grain of salt because it may not be true?  Thanks for telling us this 59 pages into this thread.  You could have saved a lot of us a great deal of time.

[czanclus]

4 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

That's sort of what I did, without the timeline or explicit marriage talk.

You said he matters in a husband form - to me that's only in conjunction of having kids and not in a million years I'll be the one to suggest to get married, that's on him. I see your point, I just don't see myself having kids unmarried not that much for myself, more so for the kids and the stable environment that he can give them (emotionally stable I mean). Otherwise I couldn't care less about rings and weddings.

Thanks for replying, mods modified my original post for 'language', but seriously kudos to living life on your own terms and not apologizing for it deviating from the norm. That said...

I didn't say he (your current man) matters in any form per se, I just understood you to want marriage along with child(ren), and that this man you are currently, in your mid-30's?, with is your first choice for that. For the stability, definitely follow your own compass, but for what it's worth - my parents never divorced, my mom was practically a 'virgin bride' (OK, not really, but my dad was basically the only man she's ever been with) - did it all 'by the book', and still! totally enabled his philandering ways and other dysfunctional behavior in later years, making that 'forever matrimony' family insufferable for me as their offspring. I'll challenge *anyone* who tells me that MY model - present kid's dad (by his choice) who lives in a separate household and whom I never married, made for a less stable life for my kid than what my parents did for me. Ring ain't got nothing to do with it either way. The man is either there for you and the kid(s) or he's not.

Sure, through most of my own wisdom, I've come to realize I am an exception to the vast sea of mindless drones lost in the confusion between their discomforts with societal norms and discomforts with being the oddballs who don't follow societal norms, but by that token - you too, if you so decide, have the power to choose to be the shining exception. I barely know you, but from how you write, it seems to me that you have it in you. Either way, do as you best see fit. Don't bring any children into the world that you're not going to be able to commit to raising 100%.

Does this guy seem like he's capable of following through with the plan? Some readers have expressed valid concerns with him being up for the responsibility, given his age (set in his ways) and lifestyle, and having a man who frustrates you with how lax he is about child raising is 10 times worse than just doing it all yourself. My point is to not project into him some virtues of apt fatherhood that are not there.

Apropos the man's desires being genuine, whether for marriage or fatherhood, then the answer is obvious. You can at most tell him what you want and when you want it, and with kindness and respect, withdraw from the charade once you realize he's not on board. I don't want to make it a question of when vs. if, but I do wish that you consider his resignation as a very realistic scenario. Don't delude yourself into thinking you weren't clear enough in your communication, or that you need to be something better for him to want a child with you, just walk if you observe him to be reluctant to follow through. Alternatively, accept the situation as is, for as long as it is.

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Lol what’s that question about? Whenever she posts something, I don’t “live” on social media

You said you have good reason to believe she stares at herself in the mirror all day. 

Checking her social media and seeing her selfies is the only way you would know that, I gather. 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 hour ago, Allupinnit said:

He can't even tell you if he's legally married or not!

And that just blows my mind. This is a sign that these two are not as close as most APs are.

There is obviously so much you don't know about this man, Tam. You don't even know the basic, fundamental, and most important facts. 

[TamBuktu]

24 minutes ago, czanclus said:

Thanks for replying, mods modified my original post for 'language', but seriously kudos to living life on your own terms and not apologizing for it deviating from the norm. That said...

I didn't say he (your current man) matters in any form per se, I just understood you to want marriage along with child(ren), and that this man you are currently, in your mid-30's?, with is your first choice for that. For the stability, definitely follow your own compass, but for what it's worth - my parents never divorced, my mom was practically a 'virgin bride' (OK, not really, but my dad was basically the only man she's ever been with) - did it all 'by the book', and still! totally enabled his philandering ways and other dysfunctional behavior in later years, making that 'forever matrimony' family insufferable for me as their offspring. I'll challenge *anyone* who tells me that MY model - present kid's dad (by his choice) who lives in a separate household and whom I never married, made for a less stable life for my kid than what my parents did for me. Ring ain't got nothing to do with it either way. The man is either there for you and the kid(s) or he's not.

Sure, through most of my own wisdom, I've come to realize I am an exception to the vast sea of mindless drones lost in the confusion between their discomforts with societal norms and discomforts with being the oddballs who don't follow societal norms, but by that token - you too, if you so decide, have the power to choose to be the shining exception. I barely know you, but from how you write, it seems to me that you have it in you. Either way, do as you best see fit. Don't bring any children into the world that you're not going to be able to commit to raising 100%.

Does this guy seem like he's capable of following through with the plan? Some readers have expressed valid concerns with him being up for the responsibility, given his age (set in his ways) and lifestyle, and having a man who frustrates you with how lax he is about child raising is 10 times worse than just doing it all yourself. My point is to not project into him some virtues of apt fatherhood that are not there.

Apropos the man's desires being genuine, whether for marriage or fatherhood, then the answer is obvious. You can at most tell him what you want and when you want it, and with kindness and respect, withdraw from the charade once you realize he's not on board. I don't want to make it a question of when vs. if, but I do wish that you consider his resignation as a very realistic scenario. Don't delude yourself into thinking you weren't clear enough in your communication, or that you need to be something better for him to want a child with you, just walk if you observe him to be reluctant to follow through. Alternatively, accept the situation as is, for as long as it is.

Thank you for your post, you raise way too many good points.

My struggle comes from being very deeply conditioned to do things by the norm and then not following the norm, and also being a complete i solo player and now having to work in a team with someone else (him).

My parents just like yours were a dysfunctional "good on the outside" "more than rotten on the inside" couple (never divorced, sadly) and I'm cringing giving my children similar dysfunctional upbringing... Deep in my heart I see him as the caring father I never had, and also I know I'll be doing the raising and caring on practical level and I'm completely calm and not worried about  it.. I might need to think long and hard what's really the best solution.

Regarding "soft" ultimatum (btw I managed to read your entire original post before it changed, I am a fast reader) I am sort of taking this strategy now, taking my time, and also deciding on the fly what's best. My thoughts evolve as we speak, I if I was 100% confident in a solution - I would have taken much more direct and firm steps.....

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

And that just blows my mind. This is a sign that these two are not as close as most APs are.

There is obviously so much you don't know about this man, Tam. You don't even know the basic, fundamental, and most important facts. 

I said it earlier I think but if we were focusing on his marriage/relationship, why it worked/haven't worked, what's going on right now, I don't think we'd have ever connected the way we did. In a way, I am grateful he took this approach, even if it was for his own advantage

Btw saw your post about her selfies etc. Same thing in real life situations, but doesn't matter really, to me it's just something foreign and strange that I don't do, otherwise I guess it doesn't matter. Take it as a compliment to her - she's good looking.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

.. Deep in my heart I see him as the caring father I never had

Daddy issues.

[TamBuktu]

53 minutes ago, stillafool said:

So with this are you saying we should take everything you say with a grain of salt because it may not be true?  Thanks for telling us this 59 pages into this thread.  You could have saved a lot of us a great deal of time.

No, I am saying anything and everything said by anyone in this world should be taken with a grain of salt and yes, thoughts evolve and change over time, some slower, some faster. Generally faster if you spell them out like in a thread or conversation. Why is this misleading to you?

[basil67]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

No, I am saying anything and everything said by anyone in this world should be taken with a grain of salt and yes, thoughts evolve and change over time, some slower, some faster. Generally faster if you spell them out like in a thread or conversation. 

Indeed.  The person who's views, plans and ideas never change is incapable of personal growth.  

I'm glad to see you questioning and changing some of your ideas as the thread progresses. 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Lack of life experience? Because most mistresses aren't thought of as Snow White by their married lovers.

Most aren't I guess. I don't think he ever considered me as "mistress" material anyway. Life experience in terms of relationship experience, most of his relationships were with women with divorces, kids, etc behind their back. I'm the type that hates flirting with passion, had 1 serious relationship and a couple of shorter term ones and that's about it.. before him I mean.

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Why is this misleading to you?

Because we give advice on what we assume to be the truth.  Now I know that isn't the case with your statements.  Fair enough.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Are you sure?  Didn't you say somewhere that you guys don't have much sex?  Maybe he wants you to be more assertive in that area.  Most MM like a lot of good sex with their mistress.

We just had a very slow progression to sexual (years), but now we are very active. I said we are a bit atypical in sexual sense but doesn't matter really... Most of the bonding was during the friendship stage anyway.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, flitzanu said:

no idea if the guy is even married?  aren't court docs like this public?  not sure of your area, but i can literally look someone up online and find their marriage ceritificate or divorce papers in the court system and don't need a private investigator

I tried and didn't find anything. Maybe I am looking in a wrong place - e.g. if it happened out of state where shall I check - the current state records or the place where the event happened?

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I tried and didn't find anything. Maybe I am looking in a wrong place - e.g. if it happened out of state where shall I check - the current state records or the place where the event happened?

There are sites online that charge a very small fee for this type of information.  Google them.