It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

You have been having a lot of heart to heart discussions recently - how’s that going for you? They have, by your own words, left you needing to collect your thoughts and allow him some time to settle down. So - how thrilled do you think he will be when you bring this topic up again on Thanksgiving? And, how is it going to be any different than your previous attempts that he had managed to evade?

Perhaps this is a marriage of convenience, why else would a woman allow her partner to miss holidays as described. Which makes it even more bizarre why he hasn’t actually chosen to be with you Tam - 

As said above, if I presume he didn't lie to me, there might be something legal involved, and it might be how their agreement is.. I don't know. I wish I did.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I am not sure how can I fill this role, unless I have a literal living child with him.

But he might not like your attentions being focused on a needy child who is not him. Many husbands who *don’t* have mommy issues find it difficult when their wives’ attention is needed for the baby rather than himself. I doubt your MM would enjoy this.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Because you let him get away with this.  I would not, I would demand a direct answer or he could go kick rocks.  TBH Tam you knew the man was married when you got involved with him.  So to what purpose would you want to hear about his wife?  What do you want him to say?  It's disrespectful to his wife to discuss her with you or anyone in your presence since he's having sex with you behind her back.    I can't imagine why you'd want to hear her name either, don't you at least feel some guilt for having sex with this woman's husband?  You actually know her.  How deep do you want to drive this knife into her back?

I agree, it's disrespectful to her. Unless it's part of their agreement, whatever it is? I don't know. I'm trying to steer away from talking about her here too....

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

There is something I haven't really been sharing because, well, I didn't fully believe him when he said it.

Of course there is more that you haven’t shared… the trickle truths continue and have created a 60 page discussion…

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He claims there is something (legal; past; not good) she is holding him with, and also is afraid of violence if she's forced out.

Could it get any more ridiculous? First - why do you involve yourself in this kind of situation - with a man you apparently no nothing about and with the threat of violence. Second - why do you believe this nonsense? A woman can not hold a man in a marriage with blackmail and the threat of violence. 

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

The only reason I'm not bringing it to the discussion is because it will raise a slew of speculations...

Here you go again, talking in code…

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

and I'm not fully convinced it's not just a deflection strategy (which I frankly hope it is, the alternative is much grimmer).

And trying to rationalize the ridiculous…

Edited November 24, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Of course there is more that you haven’t shared… the trickle truths continue and have created a 60 page discussion…

Could it get any more ridiculous? First - why do you involve yourself in this kind of situation - with a man you apparently no nothing about and with the threat of violence. Second - why do you believe this nonsense. A woman can not hold a man in a marriage with blackmail and the threat of violence. 

Here you go again, talking in code…

And rationalizing the ridiculous…

Tam, you came to this sub asking how to cajole a reluctant married man to commit. If you had initially told us that there was possibly a blood oath or witness protection program or something equally unusual holding him back, our advice might have been different. 
 

For your part, there is a saying taught to doctors in training: “when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras”. You don’t like the implication of “horses” (a standard married man who isn’t planning to divorce) so you explain him as a zebra.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, czanclus said:

Alright, what do you got so far? (I'm very similar in thinking through scenarios from sometimes a mere seed of hypothetical, and at this age cannot bother to apologize to what in my mind are mindless drifters who deem any level of thought beyond the basic if-then as 'overthinking' - you do you.) But, lay it out. If they are close, if what he's giving you is the pinnacle of what you'll get, then what? If they are not close, would it not suffice to have his actions on the plan you lay out in the next, say, couple of months, be the testament to the fact? Can this 'wife/mother figure' fit into yall's lives in any capacity or do you want her out entirely, all with a 'good luck and best wishes' farewell card? How's the algorithm looking so far? 🙂

Right, I work in early stage research and that's how we do things. I sometimes find it hard to separate this mindset from my personal life.

If they are close - 
- he's a liar or getting something basic from me - i'd then quit
- he needs something from both of us - e.g- like playing a mother figure to him and daddy figure to me, that's oversimplifying, but just to get the idea - I'd then try to find a reasonable solution
- -  by embracing a more motherly role
- - keeping her involved in some capacity
- - compensating in other ways - e.g. via "motherly" friends
If they are not close - 
- if he takes actions (leaving her) - i'd then not need to interfere OR i can play supportive role
- if he takes actions (leaving me) - nothing to be done, but i'd still like clarity
- if he wants all three of us to stay involved in some capacity
- -  we need her input to keep this amicable if there will be change
- - if there won't be a change - I need to reevaluate kids plans
- - if he's just stagnant because there is a factor out of his control
- - - if it is a legal thing or secret - I need to evaluate am I on board with that
- - - if it is a legit fear of violence - I need to consider what is the safest way out
- - - if it is "paralysis by analysis" or unreasonable fear on his end - i just need to give it time and push out of the steady state we created

Above is crudely my thoughts, I will revise later but that's the skeleton I have at the moment

[elaine567]

11 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

He responded he's so used to double talk etc, sometimes he doesn't even know why he's doing it. I tend to believe him...

Definition of doublespeak,, (doubletalk)

: language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth

Is this not very trouble some for you?

MM do tend to gloss over the truth when it suits them, but this guy seems to take it to a whole other level. 
Wake up.

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Tam, you came to this sub asking how to cajole a reluctant married man to commit. If you had initially told us that there was possibly a blood oath or witness protection program or something equally unusual holding him back, our advice might have been different. 
 

For your part, there is a saying taught to doctors in training: “when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras”. You don’t like the implication of “horses” (a standard married man who isn’t planning to divorce) so you explain him as a zebra.

You are so right... He implied this multiple times over the years but (see the common theme here lol) I never believed him because he didn't present evidence.

He said he will when I am ready but again, this was so vague I didn't believe it. I feel like most people would have done the same though? Sounds like a deflection, no? But then what if he is telling the truth?...

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Definition of doublespeak,, (doubletalk)

: language used to deceive usually through concealment or misrepresentation of truth

Is this not very trouble some for you?

MM do tend to gloss over the truth when it suits them, but this guy seems to take it to a whole other level. 
Wake up.

I am so immune to this so to speak I found it hilarious that he can do it and get away with it... But I guess I've been falling into the same trap as the others so ... I'm laughing at myself.

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

You are so right... He implied this multiple times over the years but (see the common theme here lol) I never believed him because he didn't present evidence.

He said he will when I am ready but again, this was so vague I didn't believe it. I feel like most people would have done the same though? Sounds like a deflection, no? But then what if he is telling the truth?...

Again, why use the word deflection when what you mean is “lie”?

[TamBuktu]

3 hours ago, anika99 said:

Hmm, interesting. He wants a mommy figure, you want a daddy figure. He can fulfill your needs for a daddy as long as he has a mommy at home (wife). Deep in his heart his wife is meeting his core need. With you he gets to enjoy feeling admired and needed, but you don't fill the needs his wife fills. 

And that too, we clearly fill different needs, and I think that's decoupled from relationship status or even the "dark" side of the story.

[TamBuktu]

Just now, RebeccaR said:

Again, why use the word deflection when what you mean is “lie”?

It's never an overt lie. The way he does it he'd never say the lie himself - the other person would fill the gap and create the lie if that makes any sense.

[TamBuktu]

23 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

A woman can not hold a man in a marriage with blackmail and the threat of violence. 

Are you 100% sure about this?..... 

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's never an overt lie. The way he does it he'd never say the lie himself - the other person would fill the gap and create the lie if that makes any sense.

Misleading someone deliberately is still lying, as is lying by omission. Sure, he could claim he never actually lies, but that’s extremely disingenuous and off-putting.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

Are you 100% sure about this?..... 

tam, while it’s not easy, women experiencing domestic violence leave physically and emotionally abusive partners every day, don’t they? Many times without a dollar to their names, no job skills, etc. us his situation as awful as theirs?

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

tam, while it’s not easy, women experiencing domestic violence leave physically and emotionally abusive partners every day, don’t they? Many times without a dollar to their names, no job skills, etc. us his situation as awful as theirs?

I do not know. Probably much easier on day to day basis but much more serious if there is a D Day to come (because of lack of protection)

I am no stranger to domestic violence and violence in general, I was part of it and witnessed it as a side observer too. The women involved never left regardless, because that was "the right thing to do"... And they were financially stable, educated, and had a place to go, and also legal protection. They stayed by choice... It happens, I witnessed it.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

if there is a D Day to come (because of lack of protection)

Can you guys hire security guards? Get an order of protection? How can you and he even discuss the practical matters if you don’t know the nature of the threat? He doesn’t want to, probably because there is no threat.

However much they love their mother, it strains credulity that her sons would risk a murder conviction over this guy. More likely they’d be happy to see him go 

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Can you guys hire security guards? Get an order of protection? How can you and he even discuss the practical matters if you don’t know the nature of the threat? He doesn’t want to, probably because there is no threat.

However much they love their mother, it strains credulity that her sons would risk a murder conviction over this guy. More likely they’d be happy to see him go 

I can't agree more with you, that's why I disregarded what he said as non-significant/not real

Even if it's "just in his head" (which is a very real possibility), it's still a thing.

I have someone very close who stayed with her husband (who was abusive, physically, emotionally, sexually) because "he would have committed suicide if she filed a divorce". That's a real scenario I witnessed. He wouldn't commit a suicide for God sakes, but she was so convinced, she never attempted leaving. People were a bit shocked why she wasn't upset when he died from unrelated causes... in the end of the day they were "such a loving couple"...

If there is a practical issue, I have solutions. If he never shares the practical issues, I can't do anything, obviously.

Edited November 24, 2021 by TamBuktu

[stillafool]

41 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's never an overt lie. The way he does it he'd never say the lie himself - the other person would fill the gap and create the lie if that makes any sense.

This is what skilled liars do.

Edited November 24, 2021 by stillafool

[BaileyB]

56 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

- - - if it is "paralysis by analysis" on his end - i just need to give it time and push out of the steady state we created

Is this not paralysis by analysis on your end…

Edited November 24, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

21 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I have someone very close who stayed with her husband (who was abusive, physically, emotionally, sexually) because "he would have committed suicide if she filed a divorce". That's a real scenario I witnessed. He wouldn't commit a suicide for God sakes, but she was so convinced, she never attempted leaving.

It’s a common manipulation tactic that abusers use to essentially blackmail their partner into staying in what can best be described as a very unhealthy situation. 

 

[BaileyB]

22 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If there is a practical issue, I have solutions. If he never shares the practical issues, I can't do anything, obviously.

You can’t force the man to communicate with You in much the same way that you can’t force the man to file for divorce. Have you not figured this out in the last three years? You also shouldn’t solve his problems for him. He is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions and deal with his own affairs…

 

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

It’s a common manipulation tactic that abusers use to essentially blackmail their partner into staying in what can best be described as a very unhealthy situation. 

 

That’s right, I wrote this in response to “spouse can’t be manipulated into staying in unhealthy marriage”

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

You can’t force the man to communicate with You in much the same way that you can’t force the man to file for divorce. Have you not figured this out in the last three years? You also shouldn’t solve his problems for him. He is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions and deal with his own affairs…

 

Nope, indeed. I’m just stating is as a fact.

Thats where love comes about- no judgement of the other’s flaws and working within their zone of comfort

[RebeccaR]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Thats where love comes about- no judgement of the other’s flaws and working within their zone of comfort

No, with respect, you are making excuses for him in hopes of convincing yourself he is on the path you want. He’s lying to you, but it’s worse that you’re lying to yourself.

No judgment of the other’s flaws is part of love? It depends on the flaws. Snoring ok, social ineptness ok. Habitual lying, sorry, I believe one should judge and reevaluate why they love a habitual liar who’s lying to their own lover.