It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

I would suggest that she has a healthy boundary, while you do not.

You are accepting of the fact that he gives a house and maintaining a lifestyle a higher value than living with you as a legitimate partner?

Maybe it's boundaries, maybe it's relationship style... i personally would 100% want to be involved with his family, especially the ones that do need help, when we are married, and as much as I can now as well.

Right, it sucks. I am not looking for live-in situation that's not legalized anyway for a number of reasons that I don't want to go into. But yes, I called him out for being selfish.

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Maybe it's boundaries, maybe it's relationship style... i personally would 100% want to be involved with his family, especially the ones that do need help, when we are married, and as much as I can now as well.

Kindly, it’s boundaries. 

In much the same way that you offered to go with him to see the lawyer and solve all the problems keeping him from divorce…

Its his marriage, his problem to solve. It’s his family, his responsibility. Doesn’t mean that you can’t have a relationship with them or even offer the occasional support - but you sway way…. too far in the other direction. Among other things, you don’t believe him to be capable so you will take over and handle everything. Where is your respect for his role in his own family, his marriage, and his life? That’s codependency and a lack of boundaries by their very definition… even though you call it “love” and “relationship style.”
 

Edited November 25, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

21 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Kindly, it’s boundaries. 

In much the same way that you offered to go with him to see the lawyer and solve all his problems keeping him from divorce…

Its his marriage, his problem to solve. It’s his family, his responsibility. Doesn’t mean that you can’t have a relationship with them or even offer the occasional support - but you sway way…. too far in the other direction. Among other things, you don’t believe him to be capable so you will take over and handle everything. Where is your respect for his role in his own family, his marriage, and his life? That’s codependency and a lack of boundaries by their very definition… even though you call it “love” and “relationship style.”
 

Actually I agree. I feel like I can handle anything so my instinct is to "save" him and his family members alike. She appears to be swaying to the other extreme, being aloof even for her own family .. if you ask how I know it- because there was a situation they needed help and he took me with him, we did it together...she wasn't even there... Obviously we are polar opposites maybe that's why he needs both of us...

Edited November 25, 2021 by TamBuktu

[BaileyB]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

She appears to be swaying to the other extreme, being aloof even for her own family ..

According to you. You don’t know the woman, you don’t know the circumstances of her life or her relationship with her family. 

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

if you ask how I know it- because there was a situation they needed help and he took me with him, we did it together...she wasn't even there...

That’s a totally inappropriate thing for him to do. You take it as a sign of your place in his life and his commitment to you. I take it as a sign that he has poor judgment and a total lack of respect for his wife, her family, and you.

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Obviously we are polar opposites maybe that's why he needs both of us...

Obviously…

Edited November 25, 2021 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Fair enough. As said, I'd never do it myself (having parallel relationships; even if i know i'm cheated on or something else), to me that's a foreign mindset, so just scrambling ideas. 
 

This is rich.  You don't mind boinking another woman's cheating husband every night of the week but you're too high and mighty to cheat on a cheater.  I see helping a married man cheat on his wife is not a foreign mindset for you.

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

It doesn't need to be from a "real" danger. I have a friend who recently divorced and moved very far away with her new BF. In fact, she wasn't divorced when she moved in with him. Up to this day, she says she has this visceral fear of PDA with her new partner in public, like she feels like her ex is watching her (which is logistically impossible due to distance). It's brain tricks that makes us "fear" things when we feel guilt....

Why would he feel guilty when he's cheating on her every night with you?  Also she isn't home anyway for him to spend time with according to you.

[Allupinnit]

This is honestly one of the weirdest love triangles I've ever heard of.  He spends alllll of his nights and holidays with you, but can't spend the night?  But she's also never there.  You are also talking about having children with him yesterday, but don't even know if he's legally married?  What am I missing???

You've also helped his family members out, and think you'd be a better wife because you would, and she clearly doesn't help out?

My head hurts trying to wrap my head around all of these half-relationships you've been describing.  The way he likes it - they all serve him mostly.

 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

 (and there are people in his family that do require physical help - something that I would 100% do if we're married... each on their own I guess).

Why doesn't MM give physical help to his ailing relatives or his family hire someone to take care of them?  If MM's wife isn't close to the family she may not know anything about it.  Plus it's not her job to take care of random sick in-laws; and since they don't know her either they probably don't want her taking care of them.  Since you're his mistress and so willing why don't you take care of the sick relatives.  It may impress him and speed things up.

Edited November 25, 2021 by stillafool

[ufo8mycat]

3 minutes ago, stillafool said:

If MM's wife isn't close to the family she may know nothing about it.

Or she has set a boundary that it caring for his relatives isn’t her responsibility. 
 

OP, I really don’t think you can read too much into this. It reads that you feel his family liking you is some sort of win or pick me moment. It isn’t. 
 

sure, you might want to white knight him and take on all these additional responsibilities. You might also find his wife has good reasons for not wanting to do this. It isn’t automatically the job of a wife to have a hard on for caring responsibilities. 

[stillafool]

 

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Obviously we are polar opposites maybe that's why he needs both of us...

 

No, he doesn't need you both.  Now this is turning into a "Sister Wives" episode.  You change like the wind.  You say terrible things about the wife and now are saying he needs her.  Earlier you wanted to be married to him and start a family.  Sounds like you've accepted that she isn't going anywhere.  

[ufo8mycat]

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I feel safe.. because I feel loved.

I understand how important this is. But when you feel safe and loved, you feel empowered to ask questions. Your tiptoeing and discussions and not wanting to push him doesn’t sound like a safe space where you can talk about anything. It’s easy to feel loved as you are asking ZERO from him, you have no expectations. Which is fine, but also means you can’t expect anything from him

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Yup, him not trusting me is a big issue. It is something I brought up and he claims it's habitual... I also facilitated it pretending I am unaware of the double speak (maybe from a guilt - because the information I had was acquired by my own checks, one can call them stalking lol). I am going to bring this up over and over again. The trust issues. To me that's more important than anything else actually, because only when we achieve complete trust, we can transition from romantic couple to a happy family.

So a very simple way to deal with the double speak. Interrupt him and ask him what that means exactly. “I don’t understand what you are saying, explain it like I am 5” 

“I understand all those words but now you have put them in a sentence it makes no sense” 

“what does that mean “

”does that look like to you” 

this claim of distrust being habitual may be true, it may also be his way of saying he doesn’t want to change. Regardless therapy is the only option here.

You are not going to save him from

his mean wife and unfair life. By your own admission he is where he wants to be. Being miserable and passive agressive. 
 

how long you going to invest your time in someone who doesn’t choose you wholly? 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

i personally would 100% want to be involved with his family, especially the ones that do need help, when we are if we get married, and as much as I can now as well.

Fixed it for you. 

He has not even so much as indicated he is thinking about leaving his wife. You are getting way too caught up in your fantasy. 

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

. Of course they ask every time when we'll have kids etc and I've always been acting silly to deflect - not to embarrass him.

Don't they know he's married?

It sounds like you are avoiding your own embarrassment that you are with a married man.

Is your affair that secret? Your people ask inappropriate questions like this?

Edited November 25, 2021 by Wiseman2

[stillafool]

Are you sure you aren't in someway employed by his family and that is how this affair got started and why his family knows you?  (I don't know why Arnold Schwarzenegger's affair is coming to mind.)

[ufo8mycat]

10 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

There were some weird moments - like someone in his family saying "we told you we like her (aka me)"  - I'm not sure what this was all about, I never asked

Why are you not asking? This is really a really strange example. Have they met you one? ten times? fifty times? You didn't walk in together. Who are these people? Family is very broad. Why didn't you probe that - what did he tell them? How had he framed you being there - what were you introduced as? His friend? His girlfriend? A colleague? 

10 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

am vaguely planning something for us going on a getaway where we can talk honestly (which I bet is more terrifying to him than me and the main reason why we haven't done it yet).

In three years you have never had a weekend away? Why is this vague planning? Why wouldn't you just do it? If he isn't keen then that  it your evidence. You are asking nothing of him now. A few hours where you cook and have sex. There are no demands on him at all. 

 

This man is avoidant. 

[BaileyB]

48 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

This man is avoidant. 

He is not the only one that is avoidant. 

[mark clemson]

So did he spend Thanksgiving with you? You said he has spent others with you as well in the past?

I'm not sure that means he'll leave, but it would seem that says a lot about how much he doesn't care about his wife and/or how much she'll put up with from him, or perhaps doesn't care about his presence.

I think there tends to be this assumption that the existing marriage is happy/functional, but I suspect that's often not the case in these affair situations.

An exception might be if she travels to see blood relatives and he doesn't go. But otherwise it seems like in a normal, healthy marriage they would be together.

Just noting this.

[TamBuktu]

About a month ago I started a thread discussing my relationship with a MM: here

In short, we've been together over 3 years, currently see each other every day, have been through a lot together including some health procedures, family introductions etc, but we never mention or discuss his "little complication" - his married status. They have been together about a decade, no kids, no financial ties to my knowledge. She has adult kids from another marriage. He's pushing 50, I'm 15 years younger than him, and she - 15 years older than him.

Only few weeks ago I started bringing the topic (time to be a 24.7 couple) up - wasn't without anger and fear, but so far - he has been a bit passive although he acknowledged the problem and said "he's working on a resolution". On the topic why he delayed acting on the "resolution" he stated 1) fear of aggression from her adult children 2) trying to time it right 3) hinted there might be something legal to resolve. Otherwise nothing has changed since we started the conversations, besides him being a notch more attentive. 

The other thread ended after the Thanksgiving dinner, which we spent together, like we pretty much do for all holidays these days - including Valentines, birthdays, Christmas etc. Only thing is he doesn't sleep over - he'd leave around 10-11p to go to his other house (where presumably she still resides).

Maybe I'm a bit triggered by the coming New Year, but I want to put a couple of strategic conversations before the end of this year. So far I learned that he's okay with me bringing the topic up, although very slow in action. I don't fear at all he'd leave - I fear he won't act fast enough, because my goal is to have kids together soon, ideally in the coming year. For that I need his complication being resolved first. Any ideas how to bring up things again?

I got some advice in my last thread but also quite a few reactions of judgement - so just wanted to make it clear I am not contemplating at all ending our relationship, so I don't need advice in that direction - all I need is advice on how to speed things up as well as maintain sanity amidst uncertainty. And how to communicate with him without anger or pressure. In short, I am very happy how the things between us are currently, the pressure comes from my desire to have kids together fairly soon + of course desire for more stability and certainty for our future together.

[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

For that I need his complication being resolved first.

His complication being his marriage.

Good luck to you with this. Even when the man is wanting to divorce, it’s usually not something that is resolved quickly. 

I’d rather not conspire with you as to how to coerce this man to end his marriage. That said, I do wish you well.

Edited December 9, 2021 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

Happy New Year guys!

I wanted to quickly update what has happened in the past month or so and gather feedback:)

We spend most of the holidays together, except sadly NYE when he left for midnight and came back to celebrate later on with me. However this (and other things) triggered a number of conversations, which although not super productive, are calmer than before, and gave me some clarity.

Some of the highlights were:

Hurdles - or perceived hurdles;)
- I confronted that if he really feels threatened by her/family/ I will interfere. At this point he backed off and said the threats were not made, he just anticipated them - which closed this case for now
- I said I researched the financial laws and his properties are not under threat if they separate nor they have joined accounts - he confirmed, the money he expects to lose are mainly in 2 of her trusts and although the amount is considerable, it's not a reason to stay and play vulture;)
-He said he hates the situation. I asked directly if he hates her. His answer was very vague - that he hates "nobody" and it was good in the beginning. I asked is it good now. Answer was no, but I do what I am told (meaning go back at night). I asked for the rational and his answer was fear of future court case if she discovers. This brings me to the point:

How much she knows about us:
-In his opinion - nothing. However - she blamed him for distancing and avoiding eye contact multiple times in the past year. THis confirmed that they communicate to some level and I'm inferring she's aware something is going on.

How much he has done/not done:
-They spoke about being unhappy- her response was - "let's go to couple's therapy then". He just avoided the topic after that once again.
-I asked was he planning to separate before he met me and he said he was very unhappy but someone in her family who recently passed  kept them together..
-His sideway progress: he hopes she to be the one filing. He got in touch with someone who claimed to be the "love of her life" and was plotting how to set them back up so she leaves. I disregarded that considering their ages and the manipulative nature of it.
-I asked for timeline from his end. His response: 4-6 months. I am not too happy with it because I feel like it gives him space to change his mind. I told him exactly that.

Other hurdles:
-We brought up the kids topic very seriously. Now he was on the fence because he'll be "70 and with a walker" at their college graduation. I asked is he sure he wants kids. He said "if it's your goal". I kept pushing is it HIS goal and he said something in lines with he doesn't know. I think that's  the biggest issue that surfaced, this was only couple of days ago and I will push further to get the truth.

More or less is where we are now. We still see each other every day and day to day nothing changed, except some considerable tension because of the above conversations. I am not sure do we stand. I feel like I am making a lot of progress in terms of clarity, but I am staying on a very shaky ground. Not sure what's the best approach moving forward... I am not sure how he feels deep inside but I'm personally very drained of the aforementioned discussions.
 

[introverted1]

Honestly, it sounds like the typical stuff MM say to their OW: they are all lovely dovey and talking about the future until the OW actually pushes for that future to become a reality and then the MM is suddenly reticent. This has a handy name:  future faking.

Not to burst your bubble, but this guy has now put to rest a few assumptions on your part

• There is no threat of hard that prevents him from leaving
• There is no financial loss if he leaves
• She does not know of your existence, although she may have a general sense of something not being right
• She isn't tacitly accepting his affair
• She doesn't want to give up on the marriage (she wants to go to counseling)
• He wants her to initiate the divorce (not likely; see above)
• He doesn't actually want children himself, but is appeasing you

None of this adds up to anything good, I'm afraid.  It sounds more and more like the usual MM/OW dance that rarely ends in happiness for the OW.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

Honestly, it sounds like the typical stuff MM say to their OW: they are all lovely dovey and talking about the future until the OW actually pushes for that future to become a reality and then the MM is suddenly reticent. This has a handy name:  future faking.

Not to burst your bubble, but this guy has now put to rest a few assumptions on your part

• There is no threat of hard that prevents him from leaving
• There is no financial loss if he leaves
• She does not know of your existence, although she may have a general sense of something not being right
• She isn't tacitly accepting his affair
• She doesn't want to give up on the marriage (she wants to go to counseling)
• He wants her to initiate the divorce (not likely; see above)
• He doesn't actually want children himself, but is appeasing you

None of this adds up to anything good, I'm afraid.  It sounds more and more like the usual MM/OW dance that rarely ends in happiness for the OW.

True, yet I'm actually relieved for 1-2 as well as 3-5 (especially 3-5 because I was suspecting she's okay with open relationship or whatever she wants to call it). 6 I fully expected considering his personality type. 7 is the huge red flag, that I need to investigate further. I guess we are at a make or break point.. he might have not expected me to be that direct considering my personality type but I am set on getting resolution and so far he hasn't backed off, which means he's at very least considering moving things forward with us (which on my end is pending on your point 7).

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

He hopes she to be the one filing. He got in touch with someone who claimed to be the "love of her life" and was plotting how to set them back up so she leaves.

Would it not be easier for the man to visit a lawyer and file for divorce? 

Seriously. 

Kindly, there is nothing new here except you seem to have confirmed there is no good reason for him to stay in his marriage or delay filing for divorce. He does not stay for fear of physical threat or financial loss and he expressed serious reluctance to have children. How are you closer to your goal? It seems to me that you are further away from sealing the deal than ever. 

Quote

I asked for timeline from his end. His response: 4-6 months.

For what reason? What will happen in the next four to six months that would enable him to leave his marriage? Aside from, another man entering her life and his elderly and infirm wife making the decision to leave the marriage and pursue another relationship…

Edited January 6, 2022 by BaileyB

[Allupinnit]

I'm sorry but this all sounds like a bunch of horse crap.  You're really pushing him with your confrontations and he's trying to buy himself more time in his marriage.  

It's not your job to spell it out to him how to divorce his wife, or WHY he should.

Do you work for him/them?  How do you see him every single day? 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Allupinnit

[basil67]

Aside from all the dodging and weaving he just did, what part of "I'll be 70 and in a walker at their graduation" suggests that he might really want to have children?