It's complicated - insight needed

[BaileyB]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

In retrospect the biggest red flag in the beginning was when he told me that he has never broken a relationship, instead he provoked the women to do it. I though it's quite funny back then and now I am living the consequences of this behavior

What’s stopping you from heeding that red flag and cutting your losses now? 

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

But remember it goes both ways - I just haven't been doing the asking so far, mainly because of fear and to some extent - feeling I am demasculinizing him. However - if that's what he needs (and apparently that's what he needs by his actions) - i can be the one putting demands too, it's no longer just her.

No guarantee that you would prevail. After all, she is his wife. She doesn’t need anything to change to have her way -

Besides, who wants to be in a relationship with a man that you have to pressure/demand that he be in a relationship with you. Perhaps you need to raise your standards…
 

Edited January 7, 2022 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

What’s stopping you from heeding that red flag and cutting your losses now? 

No guarantee that you would prevail. After all, she is his wife. She doesn’t need anything to change to have her way -

Besides, who wants to be in a relationship with a man that you have to pressure/demand that he be in a relationship with you. Perhaps you need to raise your standards…
 

Lol isn't that exactly what she's doing - pressuring him to stay together, after he said he's unhappy?

No guarantee I'll prevail. I accept that and lived in huge fear the past couple of months because of our "talks" but so far so good. Yet of course there are no guarantees.

All I know is what I have to offer. 

What's stopping me is pretty obvious - we fell in love, built a connection, built life, became best friends, and I don't want to lose it all. Years ago would have been simple, now.. not so much.

[ufo8mycat]

11 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

In retrospect the biggest red flag in the beginning was when he told me that he has never broken a relationship, instead he provoked the women to do it. I though it's quite funny back then and now I am living the consequences of this behavior

That is genuinely pathological behaviour. 
 

you don’t have choice, I feel you are, understandably fearful of the outcome. But my heart breaks for you knowing the most likely actions are the ones he has taken his whole life. Which by your own reporting is none what so over.

eggs and embryos don’t freeze forever, I hope you don’t waste too much time on a man who has no agency. 

Make an appointment for couples counselling to resolve these issues, they are real and what you want is important. Hopefully he doesn’t mock you as he did his wife 

[ufo8mycat]

9 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Lol isn't that exactly what she's doing - pressuring him to stay together, after he said he's unhappy?

Do you really think this man has open communication with anyone? You are fearful of raising such important issues with him. You assume his wife if pressuring him, what evidence is there for that? The far more likely scenario is that he stays because he wants to. 
 

based on what you write, I have no reason to believe he has expressed his heartfelt unhappiness to his wife, that he has had an earnest open discussion and how he feels. The much more likely scenario is that she has zero idea why he is increasingly distant and just like you, is fearful of raising the issues. This man is avoidant and passive aggressive with everyone. He has no accountability and takes no responsibility.

have you considered that you maybe he is an unreliable narrator and his reports of his wife are biased? You and his wife probably have more incommon than you think. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by ufo8mycat

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

That is genuinely pathological behaviour. 
 

you don’t have choice, I feel you are, understandably fearful of the outcome. But my heart breaks for you knowing the most likely actions are the ones he has taken his whole life. Which by your own reporting is none what so over.

eggs and embryos don’t freeze forever, I hope you don’t waste too much time on a man who has no agency. 

Make an appointment for couples counselling to resolve these issues, they are real and what you want is important. Hopefully he doesn’t mock you as he did his wife 

I know. Fun story he thinks mental health is bad on his record so he won't go unless off insurance, in some secretive kind of way. I asked why and he's like it's forever in your records. Sure but who cares.. I am doing what i can, within boundaries, to avoid resentment. The thing with me is I am very stubborn and so far that has always worked in my favor.. this time around.. I am not that sure. But I hope because I love him and still see the happy ending as a distinct possibility.

[BaileyB]

18 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Lol isn't that exactly what she's doing - pressuring him to stay together, after he said he's unhappy?

They are married. How many unhappy people chose to stay in their marriage even if/when they are unhappy? Lots. There are plenty of married people walking around this world and going to work every day feeling dissatisfied and unhappy with their relationships/lives. Some of them will cheat. Some will file for divorce. Some will go for counselling. Some will just resign themselves to their circumstance. 

It’s a common mistake that other women make when they assume that the fact that he claims to be unhappy in his marriage means that he wants/intends to divorce. It’s certainly not always true. In fact, it’s usually not true - 

She is certainly not pressuring him to stay in his marriage. What they have is a binding, legal agreement. He is committed to her in a way that he is not committed to you. 

As was said above - he doesn’t communicate or take responsibility for himself in any way. You can’t even say with certainty that he has communicated his unhappiness with his wife. So, how could she be pressuring him if she doesn’t even know there is a problem/he wants to fly the coup!  Her suggestion (if what he told you is true) that they attend counselling is also not pressure. It may be considered by some to be proactive - she is wanting to better her marriage, to support her husband if he is unhappy. Maybe she knows him as well as you do…

Edited January 7, 2022 by BaileyB

[Estes]

25 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

he has never broken a relationship, instead he provoked the women to do it. I though it's quite funny back then

You won't think it quite so funny when it happens to you, and it will. He's going to let things go on as long as possible without changing a thing, until his lack of action provokes you into ending this debacle. Or, he simply loses interest, or develops poor health because in a short 10 years he'll be in his 70s and even expects to be using a walker. Or his wife will find out and give him the ultimatum to leave you or she'll divorce him which is the last thing he wants.

 

 

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

Do you really think this man has open communication with anyone? You are fearful of raising such important issues with him. You assume his wife if pressuring him, what evidence is there for that? The far more likely scenario is that he stays because he wants to. 
 

based on what you write, I have no reason to believe he has expressed his heartfelt unhappiness to his wife, that he has had an earnest open discussion and how he feels. The much more likely scenario is that she has zero idea why he is increasingly distant and just like you, is fearful of raising the issues. This man is avoidant and passive aggressive with everyone. He has no accountability and takes no responsibility.

have you considered that you maybe he is an unreliable narrator and his reports of his wife are biased? You and his wife probably have more incommon than you think. 

He talks so little about her that the few sentences I got in the past few years, I believe, were truthful. He's so involved with me, my house, my family that it is just impossible for him to hide, if they had any close communication. So my theory is
- they don't communicate
- they do and she doesn't care, as long as she benefits from their relationship

I do believe he spoke to her but I am sure he has done it in a way that was ambiguous and therefore her suggestion for counselling. In fact even her own mother was "joking" that they probably should divorce.. 

I agree his wife and me probably have some commonalities (like putting up with him lol). "she has zero idea why he is increasingly distant and just like you, is fearful of raising the issues" - that is very possible but heck that's a woman with grown kids, on her second marriage, she could have inquired what's going on if she really wanted to. I totally don't understand her behavior.

[ufo8mycat]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I am doing what i can, within boundaries, to avoid resentment

Why do you constantly subjugate your own needs? Have you considered that your resentment is valid and justified. You are entitled to you feelings frustrations and upsets, but you are in a relationship with a man who refuses to see or validate your feelings through actions.

your feelings are valid and important. I am not sure what you are going to get by putting a man first who doesn’t respect you enough to communicate with you on the things that matter to you. 

[ufo8mycat]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

that is very possible but heck that's a woman with grown kids, on her second marriage, she could have inquired what's going on if she really wanted to.

Kindly, you are fearful of rocking the boat. You could inquire as well. Yet you don’t. You don’t even know for sure his marital or financial status. There are many things he just doesn’t talk about. So why are you taking the moral high ground here? 

[Estes]

Didn't the Op say a few pages back that she met his wife and even worked with her on something?

If so.. why the heck didn't you inquire a bit as to her personal life, under the cover of some idle chatter?

Certainly that would have been an opportune time to get some collaberation of the facts, wasn't that very tempting?

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

They are married. How many unhappy people chose to stay in their marriage even if/when they are unhappy? Lots. There are plenty of married people walking around this world and going to work every day feeling dissatisfied and unhappy with their relationships/lives. Some of them will find what they believe to be a workable solution - extramarital affair. Some will file for divorce. Some will go for counselling. Some will just resign themselves to their circumstance. 

It’s a common mistake that other women make when they assume that the fact that he claims to be unhappy in his marriage means that he wants/intends to divorce. It’s certainly not always true. In fact, it’s usually not true - 

She is certainly not pressuring him to stay in his marriage. What they have is a binding, legal agreement. He is committed to her in a way that he is not committed to you. 

As was said above - he doesn’t communicate or take responsibility for himself in any way. You can’t even say with certainty that he has communicated his unhappiness with his wife. So, how could she be pressuring him if she doesn’t even know there is a problem/he wants to fly the coup!  Her suggestion (if what he told you is true) that they attend counselling is also not pressure. It may be considered by some to be proactive - she is wanting to better her marriage, to support her husband if he is unhappy. Maybe she knows him as well as you do…

Well just by his words - that someone will track him, he needs to take different routes to avoid being tracked, he is questioned why he's not keeping eye contact etc - she is holding him. She's holding him in a tight grip that is. But not as tight to care where he eats, who he's spending his weekends with, why they aren't together on major holidays. It's super fishy no matter how we try to rationalize it.

He said he'd have stayed with her forever if he had no motivation but now he does have motivation - us. However, he said they were unhappy way before us and someone in her family effectively held them together. I know it sounds like he once again put the responsibility on a third party... that's what he told me.

I just don't understand why he always feels someone is chasing him, tracking him down, trapping him... Actually I'm pretty confident her family will be very relieved once they divorce, so will be most of his family. It is some kind of fictional narrative he got himself into and i don't believe it but I think he believes his own logic.

[TamBuktu]

Just now, Estes said:

Didn't the Op say a few pages back that she met his wife and even worked with her on something?

If so.. why the heck didn't you inquire a bit as to her personal life, under the cover of some idle chatter?

Certainly that would have been an opportune time to get some collaberation of the facts, wasn't that very tempting?

We were too early on and I didn't know where we were going. 

I want to do it now and probably can, I am just thinking how to make the conversation sound natural and not suspicious.

Alternatively I can send someone to talk to her but again, how to make it not suspicious...

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

Kindly, you are fearful of rocking the boat. You could inquire as well. Yet you don’t. You don’t even know for sure his marital or financial status. There are many things he just doesn’t talk about. So why are you taking the moral high ground here? 

Marital status: it is just such a hurtful topic to me. FOr the rest - financial status, even sexual past - I did inquire recently. I can tell you I was tachycardic but still did it. 

What else shall I inquire to solve the unknowns? I'm in the thick of it so I'm probably missing something obvious

[TamBuktu]

10 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

Why do you constantly subjugate your own needs? Have you considered that your resentment is valid and justified. You are entitled to you feelings frustrations and upsets, but you are in a relationship with a man who refuses to see or validate your feelings through actions.

your feelings are valid and important. I am not sure what you are going to get by putting a man first who doesn’t respect you enough to communicate with you on the things that matter to you. 

Right, it was a mistake. I was proving myself I'm "strong" which wasn't smart.

I'm changing this now. It's very painful process, but I am making progress, I think.

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Well just by his words - that someone will track him, he needs to take different routes to avoid being tracked, he is questioned why he's not keeping eye contact etc - she is holding him. She's holding him in a tight grip that is.

Or he paranoid and delusional. 

Seriously Tam, she’s not holding him in a tight grip. If she was, he wouldn’t have spent Christmas and every other day/night he has spent with you. 

Come on - you can’t claim that she watches and questions his every move (ie. why he’s not even keeping eye contact) and then say that she doesn’t care if he is out galavanting with you you at all hours of the day and night. These two things are incongruous. 

15 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

i don't believe it but I think he believes his own logic.

It sounds like you do the way you quote what he says as “fact.” 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by BaileyB

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Or he paranoid and delusional. 

Seriously Tam, she’s not holding him in a tight grip. If she was, he wouldn’t have spent Christmas and every other day/night he has spent with you. 

Come on - you can’t claim that she watches and questions his every move (ie. why he’s not even keeping eye contact) and then say that she doesn’t care if he is out galavanting with you you at all hours of the day and night. These two things are incongruous. 

It sounds like you do the way you quote what he says as “fact.” 

Case in point, your source for this claim is who?

There is no source, we were together when they had this conversation. 

You are right something doesn't add up. If she
- is letting him be fully free, then why he goes home even when she's out of state?
- is holding a tight grip, how did he explained e.g. having a Thanksgiving dinner without her?

I am equally puzzled as you are.. Or is it something obvious?

[basil67]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

There is no source, we were together when they had this conversation. 

You are right something doesn't add up. If she
- is letting him be fully free, then why he goes home even when she's out of state?
- is holding a tight grip, how did he explained e.g. having a Thanksgiving dinner without her?

I am equally puzzled as you are.. Or is it something obvious?

My adage for life:  If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.

[Minneloa]

Tam,

Are you at all familiar with Twelve-Step rhetoric? I ask because, even though I am not a member, I find some of their slogans quite useful. The one that comes to mind is the Serenity Prayer, which is basically a variation on “Control the Controllables.” Reading your responses here, I am struck by how fiercely determined you are to manage this entire complicated mess, but the truth is that you can’t control all the variables, especially since you are dealing with his engrained passivity and mysterious paranoia, not to mention a third party, his wife. I know you want your desired outcome,  but I worry that you are not being realistic about your chances for “success” here. Plus, isn’t it exhausting to do all the emotional labor: planning, worrying, anticipating, decoding, etc.? It all seems so terribly convoluted. ☹️

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, Minneloa said:

Tam,

Are you at all familiar with Twelve-Step rhetoric? I ask because, even though I am not a member, I find some of their slogans quite useful. The one that comes to mind is the Serenity Prayer, which is basically a variation on “Control the Controllables.” Reading your responses here, I am struck by how fiercely determined you are to manage this entire complicated mess, but the truth is that you can’t control all the variables, especially since you are dealing with his engrained passivity and mysterious paranoia, not to mention a third party, his wife. I know you want your desired outcome,  but I worry that you are not being realistic about your chances for “success” here. Plus, isn’t it exhausting to do all the emotional labor: planning, worrying, anticipating, decoding, etc.? It all seems so terribly convoluted. ☹️

I am not familiar with it but I'll check it out, good idea. I guess yes, it boils down to giving up control over things that can't be controlled..
Ironically I work in very early stage R&D so planning, anticipating, decoding, and having no answers is my second nature.. I used to call our relationship my "safe place", where I don't have to worry and deal with solving problems, and have been loved as is, no matter what... But here we are, over 3 years in and it is morphing into a research project with no clear variables :( 
All I can do is do my best, be reasonable, and accept that the outcome might not be my desired one.. without giving hope. 

[Crazelnut]

36 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

You are right something doesn't add up. If she
- is letting him be fully free, then why he goes home even when she's out of state?
- is holding a tight grip, how did he explained e.g. having a Thanksgiving dinner without her?

I am equally puzzled as you are.. Or is it something obvious?

It's very obvious. It's OBVIOUS he's bs'ing you. He says whatever is expedient to counter your requests. It's that simple. He has no intention of leaving his marriage. Come back in "4-6 months" and let us know how it worked out. 

[poppyfields]

11 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

This “loving supportive” husband spends every evening with me by his choice..

Okay here's a new one, but are you sure he's even married?   I mean how the hell can he be spending every single night with you, eat dinner with you every night and be married?  What wife would ever tolerate or accept that?  No wife at all, that's who.

The reason I question it is because I know two different guys who tell women they meet they are married, so (1) the women won't push for more, (2) won't push to spend the night (the men prefer to sleep alone), (3) nag them about spending holidays (they prefer spending holidays alone) or (4) otherwise push them (the guys) into marriage because they prefer to be alone and are in truth avoidants and commitment averse.

It's very emotionally safe for them pretending to be married, a stress free life basically.  Once the woman starts nagging him to leave his pretend wife, he's gone which may be what is beginning to happen now, with you and your guy.

I dunno reading this thread, just a gut feeling.  But I think it's possible you are being bamboozled but NOT in the way you think.  This man may NOT be married at all, it wouldn't surprise me.

This entire situation just sounds very very OFF.

 

 

[poppyfields]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:35 PM, TamBuktu said:

We spend most of the holidays together, except sadly NYE when he left for midnight and came back to celebrate later on with me

Adding to my last, another reason why I question whether or not he's even married.  So in addition to him spending every evening/night with you, having dinner with you, he also spends major holidays with you?  Again what wife would ever tolerate or accept that?

He's not married but uses it as an excuse because in truth he doesn't want marriage or even a more serious commitment.  It's safe and it's NOT uncommon.

It's a valid strategy men use to avoid commitment with a particular woman.

 

[poppyfields]

OP I am sure y'all think I'm crazy but one final thought.  He now tells you he needs yet another 4-6 months to leave his wife, or rather his pretend wife.

He's stalling because apparently he likes having you around.  But guarantee when that 4-6 months period is up, he will still tell you he's "not ready" to leave his wife because there IS no wife to leave.

Not sure why but I have this really strong sense this is what's happening. 

Unless you have actual solid tangible proof he is in fact married, and if you do I will fully admit I am mistaken, I think you being bamboozled.

Yes he's a LIAR but not in the way you think.

Edited January 8, 2022 by poppyfields

[stillafool]

9 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He never had kids for purely logistic reasons in the past. Could have he chosen fertile women? Yes. But he put love over kids like many people ahem men that have no bio-clock do... and then he's trying to fit a narrative to explain his own poor choices, that's my take.

Pretty much like you are doing Tam.  You're in your 30s and your bio clock is ticking away yet you chose to put marriage and babies on hold to wait for, get this- another woman to divorce her husband so you can try to marry and get pregnant by him.  Yes you're right, love does make some make poor choices.