It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Except from never spending the night together. Never waking up together. That’s a pretty big exception.

It’s not even like a long distance relationship where you only spend weekends together. 

Never a single night. Think about what that means when comparing yourself to any other couple.

All I'd say is I've been in a live in relationship before and we spent significantly less quality time together. I hear you and Estes, however we are overcompensating in a way because of the "night time separation" so I really don't feel deprived on the intimacy, both physical and emotional.

And that actually backfired, I have felt too comfortable for the longest time, otherwise I doubt I'd have got so involved without bringing up important issues.. 

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

You are making excuses again. While there are exceptions (travel, LDR), in general that’s what couples do - live together. He apparently lives a few minutes away yet won’t stay the night. There’s a huge jump from “he has never stayed over” to “next year I want us to be married and living together with a baby”. If he was interested in that, wouldn’t he give it a test run?

Wouldn’t you like just once to fall asleep in his arms? To know the security of having him right there with you if you felt sick? If his wife truly didn’t care, couldn’t he get away for a single night? This is hard to understand.

Yeah we are 10 min apart and when i felt sick or needed him - he has been over in an instant.

I feel like at this point we don't need a test run. What more we are going to learn about living together when we practically do it even now in a way? I know his sleep habits and logistically we'll be sleeping apart anyway due to different schedules.

At this point it's literally him pulling the trigger to divorce. I can't tell you how annoying it is to me to explain the marriage delay to friends/family who keep pestering how well we are together (not knowing about his double life )

[BaileyB]

16 minutes ago, Estes said:

Geez, I think curling up with my significant other and falling asleep either in one anothers arms or spooning is one of the best parts of being a couple. Then waking up and starting the day together... there's a LOT more to it than "Well we are just asleep anyway".

 

I have a friend who dated a single man for five years. In the end, she left him because he said he loved her but he could never commit to anything more - moving in together, marriage. An early red flag - he didn’t like staying over with her (he would ask her to go to his house and if he stayed at her home, he would leave at 8AM). He needed his space and he didn’t compromise well. 

This guy does not want to set a precedent -  he is setting a firm boundary of what he will and will not offer in terms of a relationship. As was the case with my friend, one can only delude themselves for so long before making a different decision if marriage and family is your goal. Very few women would be happy in a relationship with a man when they never get to sleep in his arms and wake next to him in the morning…

Edited January 8, 2022 by BaileyB

[Estes]

16 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yeah we are 10 min apart and when i felt sick or needed him - he has been over in an instant.

I feel like at this point we don't need a test run. 

Answer this question. If one night after a nice evening together he said “I’d like to spend the night” would you respond with “That won’t be necessary” or would you be happy about it and possibly overjoyed at the idea? 
 

If you’d be in favor of having him stay over then your past few posts on this subject are nothing more than making excuses for him. 

[TamBuktu]

14 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I have a friend who dated a single man for five years. In the end, she left him because he said he loved her but he could never commit to anything more - moving in together, marriage. An early red flag - he didn’t like staying over with her (he would ask her to go to his house and if he stayed at her home, he would leave at 8AM). He needed his space and he didn’t compromise well. 

This guy does not want to set a precedent -  he is setting a firm boundary of what he will and will not offer in terms of a relationship. As was the case with my friend, one can only delude themselves for so long before making a different decision if marriage and family is your goal. Very few women would be happy in a relationship with a man when they never get to sleep in his arms and wake next to him in the morning…

Yeah definitely a sign that he's avoidant. Otherwise for me personally it's not a dealbreaker.. Maybe the way I was raised plays a role in it, my parents never slept in the same room.

But yeah, he's showing signs of being avoidant like this jokes about changing him etc. I'm like of course I am changing you and you are changing me, that's a normal part of a relationship.

His current wife and the woman before her both encouraged him to live a very independent life, to the extreme (woman N1 even encouraged him to date others for fun, and they were at a point that he was planning to propose to her, so not casual at all). With me this is not gonna fly. I want a committed husband and father in my life. I see him fit for the role, and thought his past choices were circumstantial but yeah, there are truths that can be derived from the past...

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, Estes said:

Answer this question. If one night after a nice evening together he said “I’d like to spend the night” would you respond with “That won’t be necessary” or would you be happy about it and possibly overjoyed at the idea? 
 

If you’d be in favor of having him stay over then your past few posts on this subject are nothing more than making excuses for him. 

I'll be happy of course and also will start asking questions what changed etc - he knows it.

So let say I convince him to stay over or go on a trip overnight - is this going to help our relationship progression in your opinion? If so, how? Maybe I'm not seeing it but I can definitely do something about it, if it's helpful.

[Estes]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

His current wife and the woman before her…I want a committed husband and father in my life. I see him fit for the role

Yeah so did the women before you and look where they ended up. You’re no better off than they were and he’s given you no reason to expect you ever will be. 
 

You’ve wasted at least 3 years of your life waiting for a non-event and have unequivocally stated you’ll continue to wait for him indefinitely (although you’ve waffled a bit on this in various posts). 

Mu girlfriend’s good friend has been the other woman for 30 YEARS and only recently had she opened her eyes to the fact that he’s never going to leave his wife. She’s finally started to break away but with limited success. He’s really done a job on her. 

 

[Estes]

11 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I'll be happy of course and also will start asking questions what changed etc - he knows it.

So let say I convince him to stay over or go on a trip overnight - is this going to help our relationship progression in your opinion? If so, how? Maybe I'm not seeing it but I can definitely do something about it, if it's helpful.

Nah, it won't help at all. Him not staying over is a sure indicator of where his head is at, that's the point you have completely missed. Along with the fact that you are in fact making excuses by saying "him staying over isn't a big deal because we will just be asleep" when of course that's exactly what you want. You're tiptoeing around this guy, validating and justifying the current situation and his lack of action with whatever nonsensical statements you choose to put out there- and it's getting you nowhere fast.

 

[BaileyB]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yeah definitely a sign that he's avoidant. Otherwise for me personally it's not a dealbreaker..
Maybe the way I was raised plays a role in it, my parents never slept in the same room.
I'm like of course I am changing you and you are changing me, that's a normal part of a relationship.
His current wife and the woman before her both encouraged him to live a very independent life (even encouraged him to date others for fun).

More excuses. It doesn’t bother me because he snores, my parents never slept together, he is this way because his wife made him this way, he still does my home maintenance when I ask him, etc… If that sounds ridiculous, it’s because it is ridiculous. 

Quote

One woman even encouraged him to date others for fun - With me this is not gonna fly. I want a committed husband and father in my life.

You must mean that it’s not going to fly once you convince him to divorce his wife and commit himself to you. 
It’s ironic, considering that you have been dating a man who is in another relationship with another woman for several years now. It’s been acceptable to you until now - 
 

[TamBuktu]

19 minutes ago, Estes said:

Yeah so did the women before you and look where they ended up. You’re no better off than they were and he’s given you no reason to expect you ever will be. 
 

You’ve wasted at least 3 years of your life waiting for a non-event and have unequivocally stated you’ll continue to wait for him indefinitely (although you’ve waffled a bit on this in various posts). 

Mu girlfriend’s good friend has been the other woman for 30 YEARS and only recently had she opened her eyes to the fact that he’s never going to leave his wife. She’s finally started to break away but with limited success. He’s really done a job on her. 

 

Well where did they end up? First one sadly died, second one has had a wife title for a decade.

I won't wait more than another year and wouldn't have waited until now actually, if I haven't seen definite steady progress.

[Estes]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Well where did they end up? First one sadly died, second one has had a wife title for a decade.

 

How do you know she died? Because he told, you right? This guy lies,  you know that, right? You are even questioning if HAS a wife as he has maintained.

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I wouldn't have waited until now actually, if I haven't seen definite steady progress.

Definite steady progress… ok. 🤔

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

More excuses. It doesn’t bother me because he snores, my parents never slept together, he is this way because his wife made him this way, he still does my home maintenance when I ask him, etc… If that sounds ridiculous, it’s because it is ridiculous. 

You must mean that it’s not going to fly once you convince him to divorce his wife and commit himself to you. 
It’s ironic, considering that you have been dating a man who is in another relationship with another woman for several years now. It’s been acceptable to you until now - 
 

Exactly - the way how he'd put it - first one is a situation that existed before he knew about my existence. For future purposes, if he steps out - it will be breeching my trust and I won't allow it to happen.

Also - in this or any other relationship constant nitpicking what the other can do better inevitably leads to resentment and breakup. So I am choosing to focus on the things that I like instead.

Would have i been happier if he was more decisive? Probably. Can I change that? Unlikely, it's a personality trait. So what I am seeking is ways to work with what he/we have, and not against it. At this point I think we are very close to resolution so if I mess this up I'll blame myself.. I just need direction in a way, how to stay sane while he catches up..

I'm going back and forth for example to do another ivf stims or not. He might take it as a sign we're "secure" and have time to waste.. That's an example of something big I have to decide asap, not where he'll sleep the night..

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, Estes said:

How do you know she died? Because he told, you right? This guy lies,  you know that, right? You are even questioning if HAS a wife as he has maintained.

I know her children

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

Definite steady progress… ok. 🤔

We started with casual dates, no sex. Developed a friendship. Start seeing each other on weekends. Started talking every day. Started seeing each other every other day. Turned sexual. Met families. Made friends. Started seeing each other every day. Started talking about future children. No steady progress you say ?

[Estes]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

if he steps out - it will be breeching my trust and I won't allow it to happen.

You have no control over what he does and does not do.

[BaileyB]

Just now, Estes said:

You have no control over what he does and does not do.

Clearly. 

[Estes]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

No steady progress you say ?

Ok you've made steady progress. With a few minor concerns, generally all the important indicators point to a happy and healthy future life together.

Please keep us posted at the one year mark and let us know how you made out.

Admit it- telling all the naysayers how happy the two of you are together and how great the wedding was and how you're both excited to be expecting your first of several children is going to feel REALLY good.

 

[poppyfields]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Why it doesn't add up to me: 
- why he never brings her up in front of friends/family of his
- how the ring disappeared
- how he's out every evening and weekend days and she never cared (rolling eyes)

You missed how he spends major holidays with you as well, and she doesn't care...

Tam serious question but how would you feel if you discovered he was NOT legally married?  Nor even in another relationship cause even a girlfriend would not tolerate him being gone every night, never spending holidays, etc etc.

Nor him ever mentioning her (IF she exists) to family and friends.  

Don't you find all of this questionable and odd? 

You admitted he is avoidant.  What better way to avoid a commitment or marriage to a woman (you) than by claiming he IS already married? 

There IS a way to check, if you care.

All marriages (and divorces) are a part of your state's public records. 

As such, go to your state's court website and look it up.  

It's not difficult.

Anyway, it probably doesn't matter other than you would then know he was using as an excuse to avoid having to commit or marry you, AND that he's a huge liar and scammer.

AND that it's doubtful he would ever commit and marry you. 

Many avoidants prefer sleeping alone.  The act of "sleeping and waking together" is one of the most intimate things a couple can do.  Even when no sex is involved. 

I find it extremely odd that in three years, he has never once had the desire to do this with you.  Even when the "wife" is out of town. 

But if you're happy....

Good luck. 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by poppyfields

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

We started with casual dates, no sex. Developed a friendship. Start seeing each other on weekends. Started talking every day. Started seeing each other every other day. Turned sexual. Met families. Made friends. Started seeing each other every day. Started talking about future children. No steady progress you say ?

You are “dating” a married man. The rules of single dating do not apply. You don’t meet, develop a friendship, meet each others families, have sex, go away for romantic weekends together, he proposes, you move in together, you get married, you get a dog, and then you have children. 

You have dated, developed a friendship, it turned sexual, you started talking about a future but - full stop!! He can’t ask you to marry him, you can’t live together, he won’t even spend the night, you can’t have children because - he is not single! 

In all seriousness, I thought the “progress” you were suggesting was that you have been pressuring him to talk more seriously about the future which has prompted him to make more vague and empty promises, to offer more excuses why he can’t file for divorce, and you have taken as “progress” that this will someday, miraculously, come together for you. 

Agree, come back in a year and let us know how much progress you have made. Maybe he will have spent the night by then…

Edited January 8, 2022 by BaileyB

[Estes]

14 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Nor him ever mentioning her (IF she exists)

The Op made a rather strange and vague statement that she met the wife, having "worked with her on something" and also knows the children of the first wife who died.

My guess is that he TOLD her "oh by the way your coworker -by some crazy astronomically improbable coincidence- is my wife" and "those are the kids of my first wife" and she just blindly accepted it as fact like she does with everything else he puts out there.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Estes

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Yeah that's valid - I have done everything available in contemporary medicine to put it on hold... 
But yeah, could i have had it easier and have had a family already with other man? Very likely so. I don't think i could have found anyone that i click with that perfectly though.. So I put love first, and comfort/security second in my list of priorities, true.

And that is what he did Tam is put love first.  He may have BEEN married to her at one point but I think Poppy has a good point he's not married to her now.  It all adds up that he's not married and using that excuse to hold you and other women he's involved with at arm's length.  He doesn't go home to a wife when he leaves your house.  He goes to the woman he has sex with.  He can spend weekends, holidays and as much time as necessary with you and other women because he doesn't have to answer to anyone.   You've spent all this time hating a woman who only sees him as her maintenance man.  

[poppyfields]

Tam, if you're interested, there is another way to confirm whether or not he is legally married. 

Many search websites like Spokeo, when you enter full name, age, and city and state, it will tell you. 

E.g.  John Smith is "married," (OR divorced), it will give you names of relatives (his wife's name) and other info. 

Frankly, I am shocked you haven't bothered to confirm in 3 years especially given all his extremely questionable behaviors and how easy it would be to confirm this.

It almost seems like you don't want to know because if you discovered he was lying, that would ruin your perfect image of him and keep you living on hope and in a state of perpetual denial, which is infinitely safer and less painful than knowing the truth -- that he is a liar, scammer and that he is NEVER going to commit or marry you. 

I'm really sorry. 

 

[stillafool]

19 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He talks so little about her that the few sentences I got in the past few years, I believe, were truthful. He's so involved with me, my house, my family that it is just impossible for him to hide, if they had any close communication. So my theory is
- they don't communicate
- they do and she doesn't care, as long as she benefits from their relationship

More proof he is not married to her.  No reason to communicate except about issues about the house.  If that is even true.  She may not even live there anymore.

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, poppyfields said:

It almost seems like you don't want to know because if you discovered he was lying, that would ruin your perfect image of him and keep you living on hope and in a state of perpetual denial, which is infinitely safer and less painful than knowing the truth -- that he is a liar, scammer and that he is NEVER going to commit or marry you. 

I'm really sorry. 

And also she wouldn't have the big, bad wife to blame for the two of them not being together.