It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

8 minutes ago, Estes said:

Ok so that makes no sense. A lot of what you're waiting around for hinges on whether or not they're married, and it's beyond bizarre that you don't know their marital status and are unwilling to look into it further. My sister always checks court records on guys she meets on dating sites and with a full name and location she can typically find out his marital status and pull up any court records related to criminal activity in about 5 minutes by doing an internet search. There is absolutely no reason you cannot spend 5 minutes to do the same.

Leaving that whole bizarre "I don't know if he's legally married, he won't tell me and I won't research the matter" aside, the fact is that if he's legally married, there is no "clean break", even if she retires and moves away, he makes 5x what she does, she's entitled to some or maybe a lot of spousal maintenance, and a chunk of whatever assets they've accumulated in 15 years. Possession of his pre-marital home is a minor issue compared to the rest of what is going to happen if and when he ever gets divorced from a woman he won't even disclose if he's legally married to.

 

If you think i haven't tried - you're very wrong. I have done my snooping and i just can't find a proof - my theory is they have been married in a different state. If you can DM me or put here what kind of search I can do to obtain marital or divorce records - I will do it.

Regarding their accumulated assets - that's none of my business besides the things that he would not be willing to give up (like the house where he lives). His other properties were also obtained before their supposed marriage year, although they still have mortgage on them, not sure how this factors in. Accounts etc are all separate from what he has shared.

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, Estes said:

aside, the fact is that if he's legally married, there is no "clean break"

This relationship has none of the most challenging aspects of divorce - they don’t have children, they don’t own a business together, they don’t even apparently own a home together. As divorces go, this should be fairly straight forward if he was ever to get a good lawyer. 

That said, the fact that you/he believes that you can manipulate the situation such that it will be a clean or easy break is ridiculous. Their assets will be divided as per the law. Of course, divorce will negatively affect his financial assets among other things. 

The question becomes - is he motivated enough to do what is required and suffer the consequences of divorce in exchange for having the relationship that you say he really wants… And so far, the answer is No. 

[RebeccaR]

Tam, at the moment I am sure he is very relieved that you haven’t presented him with an ultimatum and that you haven’t gone to his wife. He will continue dragging out his “decision process” as long as you left him. As unlikely as those two approaches are to work, I think one of those (ultimatum or telling) are your only hope. He is simply not going to make any move to end his marriage on his own.

And in terms of kids, if he was actually terrified of not having a child of his own, he would have done so already by age 50. He would have legitimately gotten together with a woman young enough to provide a bio kid. Since he did not, we have to assume kids aren’t a high priority for him.

[Estes]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

If you think i haven't tried - you're very wrong. I have done my snooping and i just can't find a proof - my theory is they have been married in a different state. If you can DM me or put here what kind of search I can do to obtain marital or divorce records - I will do it.

I suppose I can contact my sister and ask her how she does it, but first, given what's at stake here, why don't you insist he tell you the truth regarding his marital status, and if they were in fact married, when and in what state? If he asks why you want those details, you can tell him that since he was not forthcoming about the marriage issue, and you're planning on spending the rest of your life with him and bearing his children, this isn't a trivial matter and you need solid answers.

If you won't ask those questions of him, then clearly you are afraid of him. The uneven balance of power and his unwillingness to disclose his marital status, as well as your inability to demand reasonable answers is staggering in it's implications as well as your priorities right now which are centered  on whether another round of IVF is in order and whether you should impregnate yourself with his child.

[BaileyB]

13 minutes ago, Estes said:

why don't you insist he tell you the truth regarding his marital status, and if they were in fact married, when and in what state?

It was one of the first conversations I had with my partner - he said to me, “I’ll answer any questions you have. What would you like to know?” Over time, I asked/learned when they were married, where they were married, how long they dated before they were married, when did he file for divorce, when was he officially divorced, what were the terms of his divorce (financially and related to child custody). There have been no secrets, and I can trust what he says because he’s always been transparent and he’s never been found to lie. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[IrinaM]

Tam on the first page of this thread, in your OP, you said that you "both want kids."

That's one of the "bullet points" of information you threw out there. Again, one more thing that has changed.

 

I know you think it's a sign of commitment that he hangs out at your crib constantly, but it's not. All married men do that. Where else will you hang out, eat, have sex? His house?

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Quote

She has referred to him as “husband” on social media and her mother who he took care for (also weird why she didn’t do it herself) referred to “divorce is needed” for 2 of them.. He used to wear a ring and they have some old photos where they have been traveling or visiting people. I know none of this is a 100% proof but what is? 

Lot's of couples who live together long term but aren't married are now referring to their live in mates as husband, wife, wifey, etc.  So that really is not proof either when other things don't add up which is the case here.  I've even worn a fake wedding band when single to deter men.  Nothing unusual about a couple travelling together married or not.

Quote

He definitely makes more than her (4-5 times more) so unless I’m missing something major, can’t be a financial arrangement.

Well you did say he has supported several women's kids so maybe he's supporting women's finances as well.  He's very generous to women.  Is he generous with you?

Quote

He for some reason needs a “mother” type figure and I think she supported that role..

If so, this doesn't bode well for you which would mean you aren't his type for marriage.  Hmmmm.

Quote

And they have one common interest I haven’t mentioned here which may explain why they bonded in the past. But overall I think most of this is really that- past.

You complain that people here aren't giving you the answers you're looking for yet every 2 pages the story changes because of some information you aren't mentioning.

 

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

At this point I'm toying with the idea to swap the order of events (get pregnant first and hope for the best) although I'm not 100% confident this plan is a good idea.

Sorry Tam, but this sounds like entrapment to get him.  Has he approved this decision?

[Pumpernickel]

45 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Sorry Tam, but this sounds like entrapment to get him.  Has he approved this decision?

This is only advisable if she’s ready to be a single parent. Which I’m not sure is the case. @TamBuktu- are you willing to take the risk? Are you equipped to be a single parent, financially & emotionally? 

[ufo8mycat]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Some make it sound he's coasting - yes, he is buying time, but also he is trying to figure out the cleanest possible way out, which in the end will benefit us all (especially if she moves out and pursues a new relationship - I know it's a wishful thinking but that solves literally all problems, financial, moral etc in one go).

He is coasting. He is "hoping" he wife will move out (why would she?), he is "hoping" she will meet someone else (That he may or may not try to orchestrate based on some really random reasoning". 

He is spending more time hoping and wishing and it will buy a lot of time. Its actually pretty good time buying strategy now I think about it. Wait for other people to do things but never ask them to do it. 

Ending a long term relationship is never clean. Ever. They are intertwined by their very nature. There will be wins and losses financially as you seperate. It's how it goes. Your scenario sounds so far fetched as to be unbelievable - she moved out and pursues another relationship? You happy to wait for this?  

However your actual OP was how to best secure a future with this man and I think its pretty obvious. You do nothing different. Do everything you are doing now and just keep going. You sound happy with your day to day. He seems happy to have a family with you, even while married. So if you want an assured future, don't ask him to change anything. 

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:55 PM, BaileyB said:

This relationship has none of the most challenging aspects of divorce - they don’t have children, they don’t own a business together, they don’t even apparently own a home together. As divorces go, this should be fairly straight forward if he was ever to get a good lawyer. 

That said, the fact that you/he believes that you can manipulate the situation such that it will be a clean or easy break is ridiculous. Their assets will be divided as per the law. Of course, divorce will negatively affect his financial assets among other things. 

The question becomes - is he motivated enough to do what is required and suffer the consequences of divorce in exchange for having the relationship that you say he really wants… And so far, the answer is No. 

Yeah, it will be messy but if we go by purely practical reasoning - no matter how we twist it, he gains way more than he loses by divorcing by marrying me. 

So at this point it boils down to 1) starting an exciting new life (+kids) 2) keeping a comfortable old life. At this point he's leaning to 1) else he would have been gone years ago (his words)

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:11 PM, RebeccaR said:

Tam, at the moment I am sure he is very relieved that you haven’t presented him with an ultimatum and that you haven’t gone to his wife. He will continue dragging out his “decision process” as long as you left him. As unlikely as those two approaches are to work, I think one of those (ultimatum or telling) are your only hope. He is simply not going to make any move to end his marriage on his own.

And in terms of kids, if he was actually terrified of not having a child of his own, he would have done so already by age 50. He would have legitimately gotten together with a woman young enough to provide a bio kid. Since he did not, we have to assume kids aren’t a high priority for him.

On your first paragraph, yes, he'll drag until I put a fork on the road. Human nature. I will for sure do that and/or tell everyone, and it's no secret to him - we spoke about that. In the end even if he leaves me, I'll tell her. If he doesn't and we move forward - I still might be the one telling her, if he's too chicken to do it alone.

On the kids subject - I get personally offended by statements like this. I've always wanted kids but the circumstances were never right for it. So despite being my priority to have them, the circumstances (bad partner choice) didn't allow e to. In his case the story is similar...

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:12 PM, Estes said:

I suppose I can contact my sister and ask her how she does it, but first, given what's at stake here, why don't you insist he tell you the truth regarding his marital status, and if they were in fact married, when and in what state? If he asks why you want those details, you can tell him that since he was not forthcoming about the marriage issue, and you're planning on spending the rest of your life with him and bearing his children, this isn't a trivial matter and you need solid answers.

If you won't ask those questions of him, then clearly you are afraid of him. The uneven balance of power and his unwillingness to disclose his marital status, as well as your inability to demand reasonable answers is staggering in it's implications as well as your priorities right now which are centered  on whether another round of IVF is in order and whether you should impregnate yourself with his child.

It's just me being very very VERY uncomfortable talking about this. If he can solve it without telling me a word, that's great for me. I don't want to know much more than that it is over. I don't want his past stupid mistake to shadow our future.

I did ask a relative and supposedly they had a wedding ceremony  in another state. I'm assuming that's a proof they're married. 

You're right that my priorities are centered around having children at this point. We can get married whenever, children can't wait. But he needs to divorce/fully separate before I get pregnant.

[RebeccaR]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

On your first paragraph, yes, he'll drag until I put a fork on the road. Human nature.

It’s not all humans’ nature, but it is HIS nature.

On the topic of kids, didn’t mean to offend, but while you have been proactive about reproduction planning, he has had at least 15 more years than you and hasn’t taken the initiative to procreate. Since he chose a woman unable to have kids due to age, it just seems like a lower priority for him than for you.

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:39 PM, IrinaM said:

Tam on the first page of this thread, in your OP, you said that you "both want kids."

That's one of the "bullet points" of information you threw out there. Again, one more thing that has changed.

 

I know you think it's a sign of commitment that he hangs out at your crib constantly, but it's not. All married men do that. Where else will you hang out, eat, have sex? His house?

Nothing has changed except before it has been a thought/desire and now we need to take concrete actions so he's getting cold feet. He still wants it.

We could have easily hung out elsewhere. And there was definitely no need to remodel half of my place to hang out in there.

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

It’s not all humans’ nature, but it is HIS nature.

On the topic of kids, didn’t mean to offend, but while you have been proactive about reproduction planning, he has had at least 15 more years than you and hasn’t taken the initiative to procreate. Since he chose a woman unable to have kids due to age, it just seems like a lower priority for him than for you.

It is a concerning factor for sure. At this point it will become very clear very soon if he really want to have kids or just dreams about it. 
(I blame his ex, not the current one for not having kids. She was 20+ years older and effectively blocked his path to have kids in a reasonable age Current woman was "replacement" for her, it's just an infuriating story but whatever)

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 4:01 PM, stillafool said:

Sorry Tam, but this sounds like entrapment to get him.  Has he approved this decision?

Lol there is NO way, literally no way, me wanting i or not, to do it without his approval and consent. It's impossible logistically. And I also never had an interest in having kids alone anyway.

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 4:48 PM, Pumpernickel said:

This is only advisable if she’s ready to be a single parent. Which I’m not sure is the case. @TamBuktu- are you willing to take the risk? Are you equipped to be a single parent, financially & emotionally? 

Logistically it won't be a problem, however, it's not how I envision my dream family. I don't want to be a single mom, unless it is my absolutely last resort (like if I get to 43-44 and I'm single with no prospects for the situation to change). I am leaning on delaying childbearing with fertility preservation for that reason.

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It is a concerning factor for sure. At this point it will become very clear very soon if he really want to have kids or just dreams about it. 
(I blame his ex, not the current one for not having kids. She was 20+ years older and effectively blocked his path to have kids in a reasonable age Current woman was "replacement" for her, it's just an infuriating story but whatever)

I did understand why you blame others for his own choices. Surely a grown man could have spoken up? And I don’t believe he is so easy to manipulate, or you would have succeeded already.

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 3:53 PM, stillafool said:

 

On your 4 points:

His relative mentioned a wedding ceremony at a different state. I guess that answers the question whether he's married.

When I said supporting kids of exes, it's because of absolute necessity (after mother's death etc), of course he is not supporting me, why would he, I don't need it. My position on finances is even if we marry, we'll never comingle them, and in "dating" stages I've always been a big proponent of 50/50 split. He did help me considerably with manual work, but mainly teaching me how to do stuff and also as a bonding activity in a way.

I noticed he needs a "dominant" woman for a serious relationship and I'm not one, that's a red flag indeed. I just.. don't enjoy bossing men around, to me that feels emasculating to them and I don't like it. So we'll see if that's something he can live with, turning the roles to him being the more dominant and not the opposite as it has been in his past relationships.

They have bonded over a pet rescue organization, I don't see how this is concealing relevant information for the thread.

[RebeccaR]

20 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's just me being very very VERY uncomfortable talking about this. If he can solve it without telling me a word, that's great for me.

Just reminding you again that it’s very concerning you cannot speak freely with the “love of your life”. This is by far the biggest red flag of your whole situation.

[TamBuktu]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:36 PM, ufo8mycat said:

He is coasting. He is "hoping" he wife will move out (why would she?), he is "hoping" she will meet someone else (That he may or may not try to orchestrate based on some really random reasoning". 

He is spending more time hoping and wishing and it will buy a lot of time. Its actually pretty good time buying strategy now I think about it. Wait for other people to do things but never ask them to do it. 

Ending a long term relationship is never clean. Ever. They are intertwined by their very nature. There will be wins and losses financially as you seperate. It's how it goes. Your scenario sounds so far fetched as to be unbelievable - she moved out and pursues another relationship? You happy to wait for this?  

However your actual OP was how to best secure a future with this man and I think its pretty obvious. You do nothing different. Do everything you are doing now and just keep going. You sound happy with your day to day. He seems happy to have a family with you, even while married. So if you want an assured future, don't ask him to change anything. 

This opinion made me think actually. Indeed he is coasting, and indeed if I don't do anything, our relationship will last for a very long time, even lifetime.

I am quite independent so having some "downtime" for myself is not a big deal, and I can reach to for him any time anyway. Finances etc we won't mix even if we marry. We can have kids even as is.

So what stops me? I guess I don't 100% trust he'll stick around if things get hard. And also - deeply rooted desire to have a picture-perfect, traditional family. Are these good enough reasons? I am not sure, I just know that at current I have fears stopping me from moving forward with my life as is.

I want to bring his other relationship in our conversations to absolute bare minimum, but the more I think, having a honest conversation might be the best way forward.. It hurts me even to think about it, let alone to talk about it, but I guess I have no choice.

I was so swamped with work the past couple of days .. that he had to take over with a lot of my personal responsibilities with the house etc, I'm super grateful. But for that reason I have slowed down our "relationship progress" conversations. I need to get back on it, I'll update what comes out of it. My main focus will be separation timeline and fertility planning + the dreaded "tell me more about her" talk.

Edited January 12, 2022 by TamBuktu

[stillafool]

59 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

It's impossible logistically.

No it's not!

[Allupinnit]

Does he know to the extent you have your life planned out with him being your husband full-time with kids?  Have you thought about how long you're willing to wait for him to be on the same page?  

You're so intent on getting your way here, I'd spell it out for him, don't beat around the bush any longer.  Give him the 6 months he needs to "get his affairs in order" and be done with it.  Seems like he only responds when women tell him what's going to happen, as you said.  

 

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, stillafool said:

No it's not!

Not sure what you mean, he knows how it works so I can’t “trick” him at home and in the clinic everything is documented. Anyway it’s not what I want so what’s the point?