It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

33 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

So the reason he is giving for not getting a divorce is fear of his wife's family?  Well, he may have good reason to fear them, if they are honour religion motivated or mafia or something, but otherwise he is just another guy who is having an affair.  Of course his extended family is going to be dismayed and upset about betrayal; most would be.  However, most would realise that if a marriage is not working, it is not working and both people are better out of it.

I know you want to think the best of him, that he is honest and honourable, but on balance it is more likely he is just pulling the wool over your eyes.  He knows you are caring woman who does not want to tread over any boundaries.  He could be being manipulative; this is a kind of emotional blackmail - if you pressure me to divorce, then I could end up dead.  He is either being very honest with you and in a dangerous situation or he is putting the fear of God into you if you should ever think he will divorce.

I suppose what seems a bit odd here is that this 'fearful' man in a 'dangerous' position was still happy to have an affair with you and spend a lot of time with you.  What did he think would happen if he got found out?  He didn't sound very fearful of that happening.

I'm still doing my research but from the information i have so far:
1) His concern is legit
2) His concern is also exaggerated

THe dark side is really dark so to speak (1), but I also this they will be relieved if he is out of their mothers life (2) because he wasn't really accepted anyway.

He has no issues spending time together with me because they don't live close and also we can always explain our time together as friendship + common projects. It won't even be off because both are true on top of the romantic/sexual aspect and as I mentioned I know them both from well before the things between me and him turned romantic. 

[TamBuktu]

13 minutes ago, spiderowl said:

TamBuktu, you are young enough to start again and find someone more suitable.  You have 'bonded' emotionally and physically with this guy; that is why you are so stuck on continuing with him regardless of his lack of action towards a divorce.  Bonding makes us feel attached, as if we can't let go.  Nature intended it that way.  However, it does not mean that nature always gets it right.  Once you have disentangled yourself from this guy, weaned yourself off him and unbonded, you could feel the same way about another guy who does not come with all the same issues.  His age is a factor too; I am sure that must be concerning you at some level.  If you can get rid of this feeling of being 'bonded', you could have a different future.  It is a feeling, not fate.

It's true, I still feel like we haven't explored all options.

Age is slightly concerning to me yes, but not to the point to trade him for younger haha.

[TamBuktu]

Bottomline i want to check if his fears are truthful. What would be the best approach to tackle that?

I can ask him directly but that leaves the possibility he is biased or doesn't tell me the truth. I can ask her indirectly but that might put him or me at risk. I can do my own research but risk to be biased or incomplete. What would you guys do?

Edited November 3, 2021 by TamBuktu

[spiderowl]

13 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Bottomline i want to check if his fears are truthful. What would be the best approach to tackle that?

I can ask him directly but that leaves the possibility he is biased or doesn't tell me the truth. I can ask her indirectly but that might put him or me at risk. I can do my own research but risk to be biased or incomplete. What would you guys do?

As I understand it, you think he is fearful that there would be violence towards him.  I guess someone in his wife's background has a criminal record or is known for abusive behaviour.

I think in general you need to ask some direct questions of your guy.  I have learned from time spent online on dating sites that guys who are married rarely say that they are.  They will say they are 'separated' or just have 'single' on their profile.  However, usually they do not have a photo and are jokey and flirty when exchanging messages.  Well, there are various signs I have picked up through experience.  One thing I do is to ask them directly - "are you married or attached"?  Quite a few will then confess that they are indeed married (but that the marriage is all but over, of course!).

So, the point I am making is, if you want an answer to anything ask him a very direct question.  A previous poster (sorry, I cannot easily go back and find their username now) suggested you ask him if he is going to get a divorce and, if so, when.  That is a direct question.  With regard to his fear, ask him directly what he is afraid of, who he is afraid of and what he thinks they will do if he tells his wife he wants a divorce.  Note if he is evasive - well, I'm sure you will do that anyway.

I had my first child at 31 and then a second child.  I am now in my early 60s and well past the stage of wanting to do anything energetic with them (due to health reasons).  If you had children now, your guy will be elderly by the time they are adults.  He will not have the energy to help you to organise their special parties, celebrations, weddings (yes, parents do help a lot with these things).  I feel for you because you need a guy that loves you and wants a future with you.  You are at the stage where it feels right to settle down and start a family, and yet you have become attached to this guy.  I would imagine you are not and have not given any other guy a chance for some time now.  I just want things to work out well for you. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by spiderowl

[Birdies]

I'm someone who was married and had an affair with a married man.  We are now very happily married to each other.  We have a child and are currently doing IVF for another.  So, lots of relevant experience.

I didn't read every page, but you and he did IVF TOGETHER?  You fertilized your egg with his sperm and now you have embryos you are waiting to transfer?  That seems like a really bizarre step to take without first dealing with "the complication", aka HE IS MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE.

Personally I would not go forward with having a child with a married man.  And if he hasn't left his wife in 3 year, I am dubious that he will. 

I would give him an ultimatum, like "I am cutting off all contact until you show me your divorce/separation papers.  If you don't within 3 months, then there is absolutely no chance of a future for us."  If you don't show him you're unwilling to tolerate the current situation, of course he will just keep stringing you along because it's easiest for him.  From what you wrote, he is extremely conflict-avoidant and won't do anything that causes conflict or hurt feelings in someone else unless he's made to.  That's not a great quality in a partner by the way.

You need to just have a straightforward conversation with him.  This beating around the bush isn't working, right?  It's been 3 years of it with what to show.... nothing.  TALK TO HIM.  Pull off the band-aid.  Tell him he needs to get a divorce and to contact you when it's done, and that you are taking a step back from your relationship until then.  Otherwise he won't do it, I guarantee.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Birdies

[ExpatInItaly]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Bottomline i want to check if his fears are truthful. What would be the best approach to tackle that?

You can't, really. Not in any practical sense. 

I would not trust him to be honest with you and not paint himself as a victim, and it isn't your place to approach his wife. So, you have to do what most OW have to do: accept the fact that there are questions you will probably never get the real answer to. 

And what does it matter if it doesn't change the bottom line? If his fears are legitimate, he isn't going to leave his wife. And if they're exaggerated or fabricated, well, he still isn't going to leave his wife. So what would you gain by trying to fact-check this? 

 

[Wiseman2]

15 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

What would be the best approach to tackle that?

Suggest a compromise. Try to conceive and ask him to move in with you and legally separate. See how he reacts.

He may delighted that you want him in your life and want to start a family. Or when you call his bluff he may hem and haw.

At least you'll have your answers as to his sincerity.. Not about fear of getting caught cheating or divorce, but how he really feels about you or if you're just a diversion.

That's the most important thing. How you fit in. Not the theoretical technicalities of a divorce that hasn't even been thought of or a family that isn't even happening.

 Find out where you stand. That's all that matters.

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

If his fears are legitimate, he isn't going to leave his wife. And if they're exaggerated or fabricated, well, he still isn't going to leave his wife. So what would you gain by trying to fact-check this? 

Good point.

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, spiderowl said:

As I understand it, you think he is fearful that there would be violence towards him.  I guess someone in his wife's background has a criminal record or is known for abusive behaviour.

I think in general you need to ask some direct questions of your guy.  I have learned from time spent online on dating sites that guys who are married rarely say that they are.  They will say they are 'separated' or just have 'single' on their profile.  However, usually they do not have a photo and are jokey and flirty when exchanging messages.  Well, there are various signs I have picked up through experience.  One thing I do is to ask them directly - "are you married or attached"?  Quite a few will then confess that they are indeed married (but that the marriage is all but over, of course!).

So, the point I am making is, if you want an answer to anything ask him a very direct question.  A previous poster (sorry, I cannot easily go back and find their username now) suggested you ask him if he is going to get a divorce and, if so, when.  That is a direct question.  With regard to his fear, ask him directly what he is afraid of, who he is afraid of and what he thinks they will do if he tells his wife he wants a divorce.  Note if he is evasive - well, I'm sure you will do that anyway.

I had my first child at 31 and then a second child.  I am now in my early 60s and well past the stage of wanting to do anything energetic with them (due to health reasons).  If you had children now, your guy will be elderly by the time they are adults.  He will not have the energy to help you to organise their special parties, celebrations, weddings (yes, parents do help a lot with these things).  I feel for you because you need a guy that loves you and wants a future with you.  You are at the stage where it feels right to settle down and start a family, and yet you have become attached to this guy.  I would imagine you are not and have not given any other guy a chance for some time now.  I just want things to work out well for you. 

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. He is very evasive in general, if cornered (on any topic) and unfortunately I am not the pushiest person.. But from all said and discussed, being overtly direct is the way to go. I need to set the stage so that he answers and not become avoidant though.. That's the hardest part on my end (besides my own demons of being scared to be direct in general).

On the age issue... I hear you. I have weighted pros and cons on that though and I'd rather have my kids have an older father than no father or someone that I barely know... although for I'm also prepared to take the lion share of child rearing.

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, Birdies said:

I'm someone who was married and had an affair with a married man.  We are now very happily married to each other.  We have a child and are currently doing IVF for another.  So, lots of relevant experience.

I didn't read every page, but you and he did IVF TOGETHER?  You fertilized your egg with his sperm and now you have embryos you are waiting to transfer?  That seems like a really bizarre step to take without first dealing with "the complication", aka HE IS MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE.

Personally I would not go forward with having a child with a married man.  And if he hasn't left his wife in 3 year, I am dubious that he will. 

I would give him an ultimatum, like "I am cutting off all contact until you show me your divorce/separation papers.  If you don't within 3 months, then there is absolutely no chance of a future for us."  If you don't show him you're unwilling to tolerate the current situation, of course he will just keep stringing you along because it's easiest for him.  From what you wrote, he is extremely conflict-avoidant and won't do anything that causes conflict or hurt feelings in someone else unless he's made to.  That's not a great quality in a partner by the way.

You need to just have a straightforward conversation with him.  This beating around the bush isn't working, right?  It's been 3 years of it with what to show.... nothing.  TALK TO HIM.  Pull off the band-aid.  Tell him he needs to get a divorce and to contact you when it's done, and that you are taking a step back from your relationship until then.  Otherwise he won't do it, I guarantee.

Thanks for sharing, how long did it take you and him to make the final step and was the transition smooth? Was there an ultimatum involved from  his or your side?

I feel like he won't respond well to ultimatum. But to being more direct - yes. I need to work on that.

I said IVF to avoid in depth explanations, i meant just cryopreservation. I won't do a transfer before he is legally divorced. Since you are going through similar - after so many egg retrievals for egg freezing I was fed up and wanted to test if the eggs have potential to blast, but I am by no means planning FET any time soon.

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Suggest a compromise. Try to conceive and ask him to move in with you and legally separate. See how he reacts.

He may delighted that you want him in your life and want to start a family. Or when you call his bluff he may hem and haw.

At least you'll have your answers as to his sincerity.. Not about fear of getting caught cheating or divorce, but how he really feels about you or if you're just a diversion.

That's the most important thing. How you fit in. Not the theoretical technicalities of a divorce that hasn't even been thought of or a family that isn't even happening.

 Find out where you stand. That's all that matters.

Yes that follows in the direct conversation bucket. I am afraid he won't oppose because he is already ok with unprotected sex. My fear is we will conceive and he will still be procrastinating. But maybe I am projecting too much.

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You can't, really. Not in any practical sense. 

I would not trust him to be honest with you and not paint himself as a victim, and it isn't your place to approach his wife. So, you have to do what most OW have to do: accept the fact that there are questions you will probably never get the real answer to. 

And what does it matter if it doesn't change the bottom line? If his fears are legitimate, he isn't going to leave his wife. And if they're exaggerated or fabricated, well, he still isn't going to leave his wife. So what would you gain by trying to fact-check this? 

 

I agree asking him or her is futile. I absolutely need answers unfortunately:
- if his fear is legitimate / extreme case - I'll need to step out
- if his fear is legitimate / mild case - I have options if he is on board - even if it involves temporary relocation
- if his fear is exaggerated - I can deal with the root cause, and would just thread gently, as long as he's on board is solvable
- if his fear is fabricated - like lying to me - I'll reconsider my commitment

So some of the above scenarios are very solvable, others aren't... I will need to fact check one way or another. I just need to find a simple straightforward approach to get the needed information.

[RebeccaR]

30 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

how long did it take you and him to make the final step

I understand you’re eager to get information from others in supposedly similar circumstances, but he is nowhere NEAR the final step. He hasn’t taken any steps to make your relationship legitimate. He’s not even close to taking the FIRST step of even broaching the topic of divorce with his wife, much less arranging finances, housing, splitting assets etc. Don’t jump to thinking you’re at the final step when he hasn’t even put on his socks yet.

[RebeccaR]

32 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

My fear is we will conceive and he will still be procrastinating.

This fear is very legitimate and I would listen to the part of yourself that recognizes this

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I understand you’re eager to get information from others in supposedly similar circumstances, but he is nowhere NEAR the final step. He hasn’t taken any steps to make your relationship legitimate. He’s not even close to taking the FIRST step of even broaching the topic of divorce with his wife, much less arranging finances, housing, splitting assets etc. Don’t jump to thinking you’re at the final step when he hasn’t even put on his socks yet.

Ah trust me I am very aware. I know his personality and I am not talking to final step being completing the divorce, I am talking about taking the decision to file it and inform her that. To me this will be "final step", the rest is logistic nuisance that can take a while of course.

Yet I am still curious for others that have been through similar. I have seen two divorces of close people recently. One was after 12 years childless marriage, the other one - after 18 years with 2 kids. First one was great until the last 2 years, then they drifted apart and she eventually moved out. She moved on living with a new partner so did he. About an year after that they filed amicably, it only took a couple of months to finalize because they didn't contest anything. The second one was very long, very ugly. Took about 5 years, while they were both dating. He married his new wife within a month after the divorce was final. The woman said though the only reason they stayed together was the kids, otherwise she was checked out since day 1. Of course both of these cases are nothing alike ours, so I have no frame of reference 

[elaine567]

21 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I feel like he won't respond well to ultimatum.

Most people do not respond well to ultimatums as they are usually being asked to do something they inherently do not want to do. 
You therefore need to consider why you would want to "push" a man to do something he does not want to do.
If he indeed loves you as much as you think, why would it  be necessary to resort to ultimatums?  
How sensible would it be to even try to cajole, persuade, coax and ultimately try to force the guy to leave his wife ?
He either is on board or he isn't.
If by his behaviour he isn't enthusiastic, I do not think it is worth your while trying too hard to make him see things the way you see them.  
You need this to be long term, most people when they feel they are being forced, tend to retreat back into their comfort zone.
Before you know it, he will be back with his wife or cultivating a new OW to make him feel good again.

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

. He married his new wife within a month after the divorce was final.

I guess his OW, hence why the divorce was so ugly...

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

Most people do not respond well to ultimatums as they are usually being asked to do something they inherently do not want to do. 
You therefore need to consider why you would want to "push" a man to do something he does not want to do.
If he indeed loves you as much as you think, why would it  be necessary to resort to ultimatums?  
How sensible would it be to even try to cajole, persuade, coax and ultimately try to force the guy to leave his wife ?
He either is on board or he isn't.
If by his behaviour he isn't enthusiastic, I do not think it is worth your while trying too hard to make him see things the way you see them.  
You need this to be long term, most people when they feel they are being forced, tend to retreat back into their comfort zone.
Before you know it, he will be back with his wife or cultivating a new OW to make him feel good again.

Yes exactly, that's why I don't want to use an ultimatum. The suggestion that I was responding to was for timeline.

What all said he wants to do it, but doesn't want the associated trouble with it. It is selfish but it is also a human thing, I can't say that I cannot relate.
I also want to talk directly to him but am postponing it because of the discomfort it is causing me, can't even imagine how uncomfortable he might feel telling her.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

I guess his OW, hence why the divorce was so ugly...

They were both dating parallelly for years before, she twisted it for being the OW but in the end of the day it wasn't. Because she told me she knew it was a mistake from day 1 and just wanted kids. I hate to even think being in that situation... 

[RebeccaR]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes exactly, that's why I don't want to use an ultimatum. The suggestion that I was responding to was for timeline.

What all said he wants to do it, but doesn't want the associated trouble with it. It is selfish but it is also a human thing, I can't say that I cannot relate.
I also want to talk directly to him but am postponing it because of the discomfort it is causing me, can't even imagine how uncomfortable he might feel telling her.

To him it isn’t worth the trouble 

[elaine567]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

What all said he wants to do it, but doesn't want the associated trouble with it

So essentially he doesn't want to do it...

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

can't even imagine how uncomfortable he might feel telling her.

I doubt he will get that far...
He has already put a huge spoke in your wheel

[TamBuktu]

34 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

To him it isn’t worth the trouble 

Very likely, and that's because I have been complacent with the situation. It is a bit of a circular problem.

[TamBuktu]

35 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

So essentially he doesn't want to do it...

Sorry I am trying to type fast, he didn't said it this way that's my interpretation based on our last talk + actions or lack of thereof.

[TamBuktu]

33 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I doubt he will get that far...
He has already put a huge spoke in your wheel

By coming with the fear story you mean? I can work around that in most possible scenarios i think, except if he's flat out lying.