It's complicated - insight needed

[RebeccaR]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

By coming with the fear story you mean? I can work around that in most possible scenarios i think, except if he's flat out lying.

But why should you have to work so hard in this “relationship”? You are doing 100% of the work. Your excuse for this is he is complacent and conflict avoidant, but since you have these same traits, you’re not in a place to criticize. I disagree. Even non-affair relationships are doomed to major problems when one person takes on the lion’s share of the emotional labor. I don’t see this turning into a happily ever after, even if his wife magically left him tomorrow (for her beau? Is this real?). He will still be a conflict avoidant, complacent, selfish man. But apparently you want this 🤷‍♀️

[TamBuktu]

12 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

But why should you have to work so hard in this “relationship”? You are doing 100% of the work. Your excuse for this is he is complacent and conflict avoidant, but since you have these same traits, you’re not in a place to criticize. I disagree. Even non-affair relationships are doomed to major problems when one person takes on the lion’s share of the emotional labor. I don’t see this turning into a happily ever after, even if his wife magically left him tomorrow (for her beau? Is this real?). He will still be a conflict avoidant, complacent, selfish man. But apparently you want this 🤷‍♀️

I see why it appears that way from what I wrote but I can ensure you it isn’t. We would never be where we area if he wasn’t putting a ton of effort and commitment in the relationship. But I see why it looks that way, because I’m writing about the problem not the good parts of it.

She is very unlikely to leave for another relationship considering her age but then weirder things have happened.. I’m not counting on this though.

And regarding avoidance- I just can’t find a better word. But besides being this way myself, I have come quite far on most of my other life goals. Because one bad quality let’s call it avoidance is compensated by another one- in my case persistence and resilience. In his case I am hoping his other qualities will overrule the avoidance too.

Edited November 4, 2021 by TamBuktu

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

 he will still be procrastinating. 

Sounds like you are procrastinating, seeing him 3 years and still too afraid to ask for the relationship, dignity and family you claim you want.

Unless you do something he'll be happy just coasting along in the status quo.

You know this so it's not about his procrastination it's about your fear of being rejected if you speak up about having a family and a man who is dedicated to you.

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sounds like you are procrastinating, seeing him 3 years and still too afraid to ask for the relationship, dignity and family you claim you want.

Unless you do something he'll be happy just coasting along in the status quo.

You know this so it's not about his procrastination it's about your fear of being rejected if you speak up about having a family and a man who is dedicated to you.

Right, I am not denying this at all. Isn't that what the root cause of procrastination is, by definition, avoiding action to therefore blame the unfavorable consequences on the avoidance and not incompetence?

I did speak up very recently and would do it again. I also need to pace it carefully, so that it isn't a coercion. I was myself nowhere ready until about a year ago. And I  realize that's still a long time.

It's not black and white.

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 I also need to pace it carefully, so that it isn't a coercion. 

Getting lost in semantics again? lol. You can hide behind words, tangents, rhetoric, etc. to obscure feelings in but the bottom line is are you happy with him going home to his wife every night?

It's odd to have all the complexities of IVF (does he know you used his sperm?) yet be unable to have the simplest conversation about what's important to you and how you feel.

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I agree asking him or her is futile. I absolutely need answers unfortunately:

So? That doesn't mean you will get answers. 

I need plenty of things. That doesn't mean I will get any of them. 

Look, you're dealing with a man who has never so much as used the words "married" or "wife" with you. It is silly to think he's ever going to have the stones to really face the hard truths and leave her. You are going to learn this the very hard way, evidently. 

[TamBuktu]

54 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Getting lost in semantics again? lol. You can hide behind words, tangents, rhetoric, etc. to obscure feelings in but the bottom line is are you happy with him going home to his wife every night?

It's odd to have all the complexities of IVF (does he know you used his sperm?) yet be unable to have the simplest conversation about what's important to you and how you feel.

Lets leave this ivf topic at the following: if I add one more detail it will all click like a puzzle but I won't because it is irrelevant to the discussion. All that matters is I need advice on the relational side of things only.

Semantics... Lol don't blame me. I tried to reduce to bare skeleton and people were still unhappy. Bottom line - times together are the price I pay for the times apart and cost so far has been lower than benefit.

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

So? That doesn't mean you will get answers. 

I need plenty of things. That doesn't mean I will get any of them. 

Look, you're dealing with a man who has never so much as used the words "married" or "wife" with you. It is silly to think he's ever going to have the stones to really face the hard truths and leave her. You are going to learn this the very hard way, evidently. 

Oh I will get my answers don't even doubt that. Just not via him or her.

Yes we did it the silly way. I am committed to reverse that - I am trying to pace it. Or he can reverse it first - he usually finds his way, even in a roundabout way.

Yes it was a mistake to avoid the topic and obviously I paid the price for this. I don't think we would have bonded if he mentioned the two words above in the critical new stages when we were building our connection. At this point I am calloused sufficiently to handle it.

[ExpatInItaly]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

I don't think we would have bonded if he mentioned the two words above in the critical new stages when we were building our connection.

So did he hide the fact that he was married?

[TamBuktu]

Just now, ExpatInItaly said:

So did he hide the fact that he was married?

No he didn't hide it - I knew. We have known each other for many years. He just never mentioned it, ever, in a conversation with me or anyone else, except in an extra roundabout way. That's when I knew something isn't right, but did the silly thing not to ask questions assuming if he's so uncomfortable to even mention it, must be really really bad. And then we bonded and the rest is now history.

[RebeccaR]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I don't think we would have bonded if he mentioned the two words above in the critical new stages when we were building our connection

And that would have been a good thing for you, because you might have met a single guy and be a happily married mom right now. His subterfuge (even though you actually knew his wife) didn’t work to your benefit. You bonded. He hasn’t bonded the way you have. You project your feelings on him.

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

And that would have been a good thing for you, because you might have met a single guy and be a happily married mom right now. His subterfuge (even though you actually knew his wife) didn’t work to your benefit. You bonded. He hasn’t bonded the way you have. You project your feelings on him.

Maybe maybe not. I doubt I would have found someone that "gets" me the way he does. Maybe he led me into all this with an intention for a fling, I don't know. It didn't end up being a fling and yet the initial setting of the stage is hard to reverse.
He is bonded too, I have zero doubt about it. Nobody with half brain would do what he does for me without the bonding factor.

Edited November 4, 2021 by TamBuktu

[ExpatInItaly]

9 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

No he didn't hide it - I knew. We have known each other for many years. He just never mentioned it, ever, in a conversation with me or anyone else, except in an extra roundabout way. 

So, what difference would it have made if he used different wording?

You knew the truth from the get-go. I fail to see how the words made any difference, except to give yourself permission to believe his marriage was awful so you engaged in an affair. 

 

[RebeccaR]

13 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Maybe maybe not. I doubt I would have found someone that "gets" me the way he does. Maybe he led me into all this with an intention for a fling, I don't know. It didn't end up being a fling and yet the initial setting of the stage is hard to reverse.
He is bonded too, I have zero doubt about it. Nobody with half brain would do what he does for me without the bonding factor.

He does a lot for everyone, including taking care of his ex’s kids financially as you mentioned. Maybe he just really likes pleasing people? He sees you are bonded so he treats you kindly? I am not saying this, or anything, to put you down. I want you to consider the likely possibility that this relationship doesn’t mean the same thing to him as it does to you. Once you realize that, you can make informed decisions about your future. 

[stillafool]

On 10/30/2021 at 1:01 PM, TamBuktu said:

So you really don’t see any issue not spending any quality time with your “husband”? 

If it’s that.. is that really a “marriage” or some kind of adult joke?

Did you got cheated on in the past? sounds like displaced hatred, it happens to all of us

Sorry I just saw this post.  

You are not with him 24 hours a day and have no idea what goes on between them when alone.  You also know nothing about what "they" consider quality time.  You're too afraid to even ask him a question for fear you'll scare him away.  He's afraid to confront his wife for fear he'll scare her away.  Why would I have misplaced hatred? And for who?  My husband has never cheated on me but I have been cheated on by boyfriends.  When I found out I broke up and looked for better which I found.  I didn't look to someone else's husband to save me.

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He just never mentioned it, ever, in a conversation with me or anyone else, except in an extra roundabout way. That's when I knew something isn't right, but did the silly thing not to ask questions assuming if he's so uncomfortable to even mention it, must be really really bad.

It means something isn’t right, all right. It’s funny how you assumed that he never mentioned his wife or marriage meant it must be “really, really bad.” One could also have assumed that he was a very private man. Or perhaps, that he was completely disconnected from his wife and his marriage. There are any number of things this could mean. That said, it’s not normal for a man to never mention his wife or the fact that he is married to his coworkers. That would have raised my suspicion, and I doubt I would have assumed that his marriage was “really, really bad.” 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

No he didn't hide it - I knew. We have known each other for many years. He just never mentioned it, ever, in a conversation with me or anyone else, except in an extra roundabout way. That's when I knew something isn't right, but did the silly thing not to ask questions assuming if he's so uncomfortable to even mention it, must be really really bad. And then we bonded and the rest is now history.

On top of what Bailey wrote above, it's not uncommon for affair partners to not want to hear anything about their other married life.  If this isn't his first affair (and there's no reason to think it's his first), he could have learned from those OW to not mention his wife.

[Versacehottie]

forgive me if anyone's mentioned this...but in all this mental gymnastics and confused thinking, have you ever given a single thought to--let's say you get your way and have a kid--what life will be like for said kid?  You think you are confused, poor thing will be growing up in this mess. 🙄

[TamBuktu]

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

So, what difference would it have made if he used different wording?

You knew the truth from the get-go. I fail to see how the words made any difference, except to give yourself permission to believe his marriage was awful so you engaged in an affair. 

 

I never said otherwise. I came all in with eyes wide open after not months, years of consideration.

Words made a difference back then, I think, because the emphasis was on us and not on them. If he was constantly talking about say, his mother, it will be similar turn off. All I was saying that I'm glad we started the way we did, not that i wasn't aware.

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, Versacehottie said:

forgive me if anyone's mentioned this...but in all this mental gymnastics and confused thinking, have you ever given a single thought to--let's say you get your way and have a kid--what life will be like for said kid?  You think you are confused, poor thing will be growing up in this mess. 🙄

I'm not having a kid before we resolve the mess. Then the kid/s will have a caring mother and an amazing dad:)

[TamBuktu]

6 hours ago, stillafool said:

Sorry I just saw this post.  

You are not with him 24 hours a day and have no idea what goes on between them when alone.  You also know nothing about what "they" consider quality time.  You're too afraid to even ask him a question for fear you'll scare him away.  He's afraid to confront his wife for fear he'll scare her away.  Why would I have misplaced hatred? And for who?  My husband has never cheated on me but I have been cheated on by boyfriends.  When I found out I broke up and looked for better which I found.  I didn't look to someone else's husband to save me.

No, who is 24/7 with their partner lol? I have a pretty good idea because of all the years, and it's not like we only see each other and forget about it, we text all the time as well.

Sorry I don't remember the context of your previous post. But on this one, I'm not afraid to confront him, he won't get scared away. I have a healthy confidence to know what i have to offer and it's a lot more than looks and "youth".

[TamBuktu]

6 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

He does a lot for everyone, including taking care of his ex’s kids financially as you mentioned. Maybe he just really likes pleasing people? He sees you are bonded so he treats you kindly? I am not saying this, or anything, to put you down. I want you to consider the likely possibility that this relationship doesn’t mean the same thing to him as it does to you. Once you realize that, you can make informed decisions about your future. 

We've been friends for years, so I know very well the difference between pleasing people and being all in bonded. The ex's kids help of course is for love too, and shall i add a detail she has passed so it's obviously a bit of a tragic situation there, i'm aware and supportive

[TamBuktu]

4 hours ago, basil67 said:

On top of what Bailey wrote above, it's not uncommon for affair partners to not want to hear anything about their other married life.  If this isn't his first affair (and there's no reason to think it's his first), he could have learned from those OW to not mention his wife.

To me, maybe, i am referring to our entire (not small) common circle

[TamBuktu]

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

It means something isn’t right, all right. It’s funny how you assumed that he never mentioned his wife or marriage meant it must be “really, really bad.” One could also have assumed that he was a very private man. Or perhaps, that he was completely disconnected from his wife and his marriage. There are any number of things this could mean. That said, it’s not normal for a man to never mention his wife or the fact that he is married to his coworkers. That would have raised my suspicion, and I doubt I would have assumed that his marriage was “really, really bad.” 

Yup it means something isn't right indeed. I have no idea what the bad thing exactly is (she, something he has been through, whatever), I just know it is a common courtesy to leave a subject alone if the person is visibly extremely uncomfortable bringing it up. Back then I mean. Now I can ask, I am just procrastinating as someone called it out.

I didn't mean in work context - i'm talking she hasn't been mentioned in front of his family in family events or when somebody would ask how is she doing, he will say something extra generic like "nothing special" and change the subject. Obviously this is not normal and raised my suspicion too, I just decided to leave it on him, he knows his situation best. I have been pressured in the past to talk on sensitive subjects and hated it to the point to ruin the relationship... So decided to spare him the "joy" of interrogation.

But again, the bottomline of all this is yes, we acted silly, maybe made a bad judgement call in the beginning. But the other side of the coin: we are very, very, very happy. We get from each other love, intimacy and companionship. Pretty much all I could have asked from a man. Otherwise I'd have never let it come that far, but at some cases, the connection is just undeniable. I didn't believe it before it happened to me:)

[ExpatInItaly]

4 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I know very well the difference between pleasing people and being all in bonded.

All-in bonded but signed away his parental rights?

You have a strange definition of "all-in bonded" and it's very different from his. This man has kept you in your place for a reason, when it comes to the big life commitments. Your admitted lack of relationship experience means you don't see the obvious here, but he isn't as green as you are. 

He knows what he is doing. You don't get it yet, but you will.