It's complicated - insight needed

[RebeccaR]

2 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Would it make sense laying it all out but in small chunks?

The problem with this is you basically have to start from scratch each time you reopen the conversation. 

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I think the main issue is I have never done it with anyone else (being direct on topics like marriage, family etc, or any other important topic

Have you considered therapy to understand why?

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I disagree. Despite her protestations OP has clearly banked her entire future on this man, figuratively and literally. She has (unfortunately) convinced herself she can never establish a connection with a different man, this married man is her soulmate. Please realize Tam that there is life beyond this one man who hasn’t shown any inclination to leave his marriage.

and you haven’t answered, whose decision was it for you to make him beneficiary of your life savings?

Rebecca, I said it multiple times - my decision (and he wasn't happy with it). But yes, together or not (God forbid), I will always trust him- he gained this place in my life, it is a long story but it surpasses our romantic involvement. 

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I generally get things done myself and here I need his input.

Here you cannot do it without him so he needs to know the full story, so he can say yea or nay.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

The problem with this is you basically have to start from scratch each time you reopen the conversation. 

Yeah. Exactly that and also me losing my nerves a bit. I only want to speak about this when super calm but it is an emotional topic.

And yes, I considered therapy. I mostly know why, but it is not something that can be quickly addressed due to the complicated background reasons that resulted in this.

So it is a question of finding a way without addressing the root cause, unfortunately (simply because of time constraints).

[RebeccaR]

If he’s truly your life partner you should be able to open up fully to him. If you can’t, that’s not a positive sign. Even if you marry but your personalities don’t change, every conflict and disagreement will be this difficult or more. 

[stillafool]

9 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Only in the past year or so I had a "mind shift".. I think the main issue is I have never done it with anyone else (being direct on topics like marriage, family etc, or any other important topic if that matters).

How can this be when you were previously engaged to be married.  You mean you accepted a proposal without discussing marriage, family, etc.?  If you're too afraid to discuss these topics with MM you guys aren't as close as you think.

Edited November 7, 2021 by stillafool

[elaine567]

The problem here is not about discussing marriage/kids, it is about the fear he will say no.
"There is no way I am leaving my wife, sorry, realistically not going to happen." or "I never want to get married again", or "I don't really want kids..." etc.
She fears rejection, as all her current hopes and dreams are invested in him. 

[ExpatInItaly]

13 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

If he’s truly your life partner you should be able to open up fully to him. If you can’t, that’s not a positive sign.

Yes, agreed. 

The fact that you and he cannot have a direct conversation about the most important matters after 3 years says a lot, OP. And it's not good. You can't even use the words "married" or "wife" together. That speaks to the absence of true emotional connection and honesty, and unwillingness to involve you more in his life. 

So while you feel you click with him on every level, it acutally appears to be quite superifical to the unbiased observer. And my guess is that this is very much by design on his part. And you've gone along with it because you're afraid of what you're going to hear when you muster up the courage to be honest with him. 

You say goes home every night out of fear. But you sound significantly more afraid than he does in your avoidant behaviour. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by ExpatInItaly

[TamBuktu]

15 minutes ago, stillafool said:

How can this be when you were previously engaged to be married.  You mean you accepted a proposal without discussing marriage, family, etc.?  If you're too afraid to discuss these topics with MM you guys aren't as close as you think.

Long story but I literally had no say, the person had a life agenda and I was just a convenient puppet who says yes.

Funny story was it ended shortly after he was saying “my wife to be” and expected me to reciprocate, I couldn’t utter the words and he thought I’m “playing” him.

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Yes, agreed. 

The fact that you and he cannot have a direct conversation about the most important matters after 3 years says a lot, OP. And it's not good. You can't even use the words "married" or "wife" together. That speaks to the absence of true emotional connection and honesty, and unwillingness to involve you more in his life. 

So while you feel you click with him on every level, it acutally appears to be quite superifical to the unbiased observer. And my guess is that this is very much by design on his part. And you've gone along with it because you're afraid of what you're going to hear when you muster up the courage to be honest with him. 

You say goes home every night out of fear. But you sound significantly more afraid than he does in your avoidant behaviour. 

Yeah I see why it looks like this.

Having not said words like baby, marriage, family, doesn’t mean we haven’t implicitly discussed it. As I mentioned we have gone through the whole fertility testing and procedures hell together and yet managed to do it without saying the actual words.

We are not superficial together, far from it. We just adopted this silly style that I liked so much initially because it made me feel understood and safe, at this point in time is backfiring though.

 

 

[RebeccaR]

9 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

The fact that you and he cannot have a direct conversation about the most important matters after 3 years says a lot, OP.

I think this is obvious to everyone reading. The excuse “well we are BOTH avoidant, evasive people” doesn’t make things look better. One evasive person in a relationship is a problem; two evasive people is a disaster waiting to happen.

[TamBuktu]

14 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The problem here is not about discussing marriage/kids, it is about the fear he will say no.
"There is no way I am leaving my wife, sorry, realistically not going to happen." or "I never want to get married again", or "I don't really want kids..." etc.
She fears rejection, as all her current hopes and dreams are invested in him. 

Knowing him, the chance he’ll say any of these things is extremely low, even if he thinks them.

So it’s not a fear of rejection, it’s more of a fear of putting myself all out there, and getting no clarity. And also- I’m extremely worried of getting overly emotional.

 

[RebeccaR]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Long story but I literally had no say, the person had a life agenda and I was just a convenient puppet who says yes.

I’m assuming this happened due to cultural reasons. If not, I really hope you got therapy to understand why you accepted a proposal as a “puppet”. You sound South Asian in some of your word choice and your thoughts around money, perhaps you were subjected to an arranged engagement at a young age. Sad that you feel a married man is the best you can do.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think this is obvious to everyone reading. The excuse “well we are BOTH avoidant, evasive people” doesn’t make things look better. One evasive person in a relationship is a problem; two evasive people is a disaster waiting to happen.

It is, so I need to overcome myself somehow and avoid a disaster. It is just so hard for me.

You can’t see it here but we have gone a very long way, from how it was to how it is now.

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

I’m extremely worried of getting overly emotional.

With the love of your life? Surely he’ll be sympathetic? This isn’t something I can understand, perhaps again it’s cultural differences 

[RebeccaR]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

You can’t see it here but we have gone a very long way, from how it was to how it is now.

I do understand. But if it’s been 3 years and you are still terrified of opening up, maybe that’s a sign things aren’t so good.

[RebeccaR]

I also understand if you need to start over again dating, you might feel like you wasted 3 years. I understand. But please don’t waste more.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, RebeccaR said:

With the love of your life? Surely he’ll be sympathetic? This isn’t something I can understand, perhaps again it’s cultural differences 

Oh he’ll understand.

He has seen me through tantrums and he’s the only person I have ever felt safe with to express certain opinions.

I just don’t want to embarrass myself in this way and also I much rather talk from a point of calmness knowing my own “quirks”.

Maybe it’s a cultural difference to a some extent, and to a bigger extent- the way how we have been raised.

[ExpatInItaly]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

And also- I’m extremely worried of getting overly emotional.

Why are you extremely worried? What do you fear the consquences will be, that you will somehow embarrass yourself?

Because if you can't be emotional with the man who is supposedly life-partner material, then you don't have much to work with here. Our life partners generally see us at our most vulnerable. Our most cringey. Our most fragile. The fact you are so worried about this again should tell you something about how emotionally close you two are not. 

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I also understand if you need to start over again dating, you might feel like you wasted 3 years. I understand. But please don’t waste more.

I am just not confident I’ll ever meet someone like him.

If I was to date again.. nah, I’d just become a single mom by choice instead.

[TamBuktu]

Just now, ExpatInItaly said:

Why are you extremely worried? What do you fear the consquences will be, that you will somehow embarrass yourself?

Because if you can't be emotional with the man who is supposedly life-partner material, then you don't have much to work with here. Our life partners generally see us at our most vulnerable. Our most cringey. Our most fragile. The fact you are so worried about this again should tell you something about how emotionally close you two are not. 

My personal belief is there is a big difference between being vulnerable and being cringey.

No one needs to see my cringey side, I’d rather keep it to myself;)

That’s the person I have felt closer to in my lifetime, closer than to parents, siblings, partners, friends, anyone. So yes, by my definition we are close, very emotionally close.

 

[ExpatInItaly]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

there is a big difference between being vulnerable and being cringey.

And what is that difference? 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

My advice would be to take a direct approach, lay all your cards on the table. Marriage and  kids is your goal, you don't want to waste any time.

Exactly. Quit wasting your own time and his. He’s a grown man, he can handle it. If he is serious about this relationship, he will do what is required to be with you. End of story. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

37 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

The problem here is not about discussing marriage/kids, it is about the fear he will say no.
She fears rejection, as all her current hopes and dreams are invested in him. 

Bingo.

Thus, the need to make excuses and justify everything. She’s avoiding the difficult conversations because she’s not ready to give up the fantasy yet. He’s avoiding the difficult conversations because - he has things exactly as he wants right now.