It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, stillafool said:

According to Tam he is the one who is paying her way. (roll eyes)

I'm not sure where you got this lol - nope, nobody is paying the way of the other. We are both fortunate enough to be stable financially, after many many years of schooling and efforts. All he has ever helped me with is teaching me how to do hands on things regarding property maintenance, remodeling etc. We both have STEM jobs, that's for hobby and side income.
 

[TamBuktu]

9 hours ago, elaine567 said:

But why?
He is  a grown man, he is nearly 50, why would you need to shoulder all the responsibility?

Because I love him and it is not always 50/50 split of responsibilities. I will give what I can, while I can.

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

He can't leave you when he isn't with you, OP. The only woman he can leave is his wife. 

But rather than argue semantics, your biggest mistake in all of this is blindly trusting this man. The more you write, the more I suspect he zeroed in on you because you have a childlike naivety that works perfectly to his advatnage.  You want so badly for this to work out that you believe everything he says. 

I also wonder if he's actually already separated from his wife and just has never told you because he doesn't actually want to be with you. So he makes up excuses about being too "afraid" to leave because it keeps you in your place and he can keep enjoying you as it suits him but still not commit to you. 

The amount of time you say you spend together would raise any wife's alarm bells. Something doesn't add up there. 

 

Yeah that's entirely possible they are separated. I don't know and probably doesn't matter anyway, he still needs to go through divorce procedure.

I agree something doesn't add up  - that's why I started the thread.

He is a bit non-committal, abstracting from our relationship, his marriage and past relationships, I can see it. Long story why it is this way, but it is mainly trust issues.

[TamBuktu]

57 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

Boy oh boy. Having read all this, I just have to ask you op... Are you happy?

I’m a firm believer in Occams Razor. And I believe the simplest explanation for this is he hasn’t left his wife yet because he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t bring it up ever because he’s happy with the status quo. Have you read the threads in the OW/OM board? 

Yes, I've never been that happy in my life. Occams Razor - yes, maybe that's why I let this stay as is for so long, I have been too happy as is. I know when we make a change it will get worse before it gets better, and honestly I am also not looking forward to that, I just know it's necessary to have kids together and be a family.

I skimmed a few threads but lots more to catch up on.

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, stillafool said:

So if you're so sure of yourself and him, got all of the answers, why are you here?  What information are you looking for and in 25 pages you still don't have the answer?

I was looking for a way to collect my thoughts. In that sense, this has been very helpful - even the unpleasant exchanges made me think what I am doing wrong and how to change.

It's a bit of an unfortunate situation and if I was the reader I would have been probably criticizing too, I am that moralist lol in many aspects, but I really really believe it's different. And besides being something out of character for me to start with, if I have to be honest - I have no regrets. Some things are just meant to be.

[Agentra]

You have pushed yourself so deep into denial and delusion that it is honestly impressive. 

I believe only a "crash and burn" will help you at this point. Best of luck.

[ExpatInItaly]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Yeah that's entirely possible they are separated. I don't know and probably doesn't matter anyway, he still needs to go through divorce procedure.

The reason it would matter is this: if he is actually already separated from her, but pretending to you that he isn't, it's your sign that he isn't that enthusiastic to finally be with you. 

But I see fairly clearly that you intend on staying no matter what and at just about all costs, so there's not much anyone can say here. Your mind is made up so I am not sure what you are looking for at this point on this thread. 

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Your mind is made up so I am not sure what you are looking for at this point on this thread. 

Ideas from anyone to guarantee success in her attempt to turn her 50yo MM into a husband and family man.
Ideas as to how to persuade him to leave his wife and choose her.

Tam
Younger MM do sometimes leave for their OW and start 2nd families, older guys no, unless they get flung out by their wife and have to then fend for themselves... 
This guy sounds set in his "bachelor" type ways, he has a nice set up with his wife and you, so why would he want to make life more difficult for himself?
To my mind you are about 20 years too late, to try to "convert" this particular guy.
Also in the three years of the affair, you have trained him to see you in a certain way.
From what you say, you are perfect OW material. 
Changing your role into a more dynamic, demanding one may not endear you to him at all... you have to consider that.

Then, there are his Mama issues and his cultural influences, and his taciturn personality...
His wife may be the least of your problems. She may be quite happy to get rid of him, finally...
 

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Some things are just meant to be.

 Some things are just NOT meant to be

.

[elaine567]

The Mama issues may sound trivial or even funny.
Men ALL love younger women, they don't want older women, is what we keep being told.
BUT some men ARE very attracted to older women and that cannot be ignored.
If I were 60, would I date a 50 yo guy with Mama issues? Maybe...
If I were 35, would I date a 50 yo guy with Mama issues? No way.
At least at 60, I would know I was in his preferred age group, at 35 I wouldn't be...

Edited November 8, 2021 by elaine567

[spiritedaway2003]

Gently, if you want to stop wasting your time (life) and if you are that confident that your MM will leave for you, then don’t pressure him at all.  In fact, just walk away from him — not to force him into a decision. Do it for you. He should respect that you do not wish to continue to engage in a affair until he is divorced.  All these plans you have with him can’t happen until he’s available, so where’s the holdup?  

You already spent 3 years on him. How many more do you plan to wait, another 3, 5, even 10 years?  Remember, no one is holding him hostage from getting a divorce. At the moment, he’s not getting one because he’s perfectly fine with how things are working out for him.  

His response will tell you everything you need to know. Don’t make excuses FOR him.  I always find it helpful to see things as they are and not project into the situation.  Is he just all words, trying to keep you on the hook or is he genuine (and can he back it up by actions)?  A guy who loves you that much will move mountains just to be with you. 

Knowing that truth will help propel you to make a decision one way or another, instead of being tethered indefinitely.  Set a timeframe. He doesn’t need another 3 years to decide if he wants to be with you and take actions (file for divorce). He already knows that answer. But do you?

Edited November 8, 2021 by spiritedaway2003

[TamBuktu]

3 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

The reason it would matter is this: if he is actually already separated from her, but pretending to you that he isn't, it's your sign that he isn't that enthusiastic to finally be with you. 

But I see fairly clearly that you intend on staying no matter what and at just about all costs, so there's not much anyone can say here. Your mind is made up so I am not sure what you are looking for at this point on this thread. 

First off - yeah, I realize now I have firmly made my mind, and not much point to discuss that... I'll update when there is progress. The other poster suggested stepping away to give him space to decide but I don't think I can, quite frankly, but we shall see.

On your first point: I won't call it not enthusiastic, his style is like this. We have discussed in depth before how long he took to initiate before and how many times in his youth he got dumped because the girls misunderstood his intentions with just friendship when he was head over heels, just slow. Then he started dating older women and apparently that fixed the issue? Maybe that's one of the last things I want to address since it got brought up..

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Ideas from anyone to guarantee success in her attempt to turn her 50yo MM into a husband and family man.
Ideas as to how to persuade him to leave his wife and choose her.

Tam
Younger MM do sometimes leave for their OW and start 2nd families, older guys no, unless they get flung out by their wife and have to then fend for themselves... 
This guy sounds set in his "bachelor" type ways, he has a nice set up with his wife and you, so why would he want to make life more difficult for himself?
To my mind you are about 20 years too late, to try to "convert" this particular guy.
Also in the three years of the affair, you have trained him to see you in a certain way.
From what you say, you are perfect OW material. 
Changing your role into a more dynamic, demanding one may not endear you to him at all... you have to consider that.

Then, there are his Mama issues and his cultural influences, and his taciturn personality...
His wife may be the least of your problems. She may be quite happy to get rid of him, finally...
 

 Some things are just NOT meant to be

.

I have the same feeling for the wife for some reason..

But I do want to talk about your other point because it is something I never gave a deep thought but has been on the back of my mind. What you called Mama issues. When he was younger he told me he was always rejected by peers because he was moving things too slow, waiting for them to make moves on him etc. Then he discovered older women. Much older than the 15 years that he has with current wife. Apparently then is when he discovered what is to be loved - i am not talking at all dating for financial benefits, I think he meant being more accepted. Big love died and he ended up with current wife

Now my question? If that's his preference, then why he chased me? He was the one initiating things for us. And then does he expect the older women domineering type of behavior to see a woman as "wife material"? I am not judging here, just genuinely puzzled.

Edited November 8, 2021 by TamBuktu

[TamBuktu]

Oh and one last point since it got mentioned: our cultural differences. He went above and beyond to immerse me in his "group of people", for that reason I think we are set on this "problem". They have accepted me at least on the surface it looks like it. Fun thing is - I am interacting with a group that he has known since childhood and nobody ever mentions his current relationship. It's like it doesn't exist. I am always so puzzled with that.

[RebeccaR]

16 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I am interacting with a group that he has known since childhood and nobody ever mentions his current relationship

Quite likely they mention her when you are not around though

[RebeccaR]

21 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Now my question? If that's his preference, then why he chased me?

You are assuming he is monogamous at heart. He’s not. He wants both - an older wife and a younger girlfriend. This isn’t complicated.

[TamBuktu]

6 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Quite likely they mention her when you are not around though

Not really, some of them don't associate us at all, so I know it's unbiased

[elaine567]

33 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Oh and one last point since it got mentioned: our cultural differences. He went above and beyond to immerse me in his "group of people", for that reason I think we are set on this "problem". They have accepted me at least on the surface it looks like it. Fun thing is - I am interacting with a group that he has known since childhood and nobody ever mentions his current relationship. It's like it doesn't exist. I am always so puzzled with that.

Why would that puzzle you when he has never mentioned wife, divorce, marriage... to the woman he is seeing every evening, ie you.?

[TamBuktu]

Just now, elaine567 said:

Why would that puzzle you when he has never mentioned wife, divorce, marriage... to the woman he is seeing every evening, ie you.?

Because in my case there is conflict of interest, in their case any information is just a matter of fact..

[BaileyB]

52 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

First off - yeah, I realize now I have firmly made my mind, and not much point to discuss that... I'll update when there is progress.

And with that, I’m going to do what I said I would do yesterday and step away from this thread. Good luck to you OP - 

[elaine567]

21 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

You are assuming he is monogamous at heart. He’s not. 

This is what I believe about many MM, they  are not naturally monogamous.
It is why I guess so many OWs fail spectacularly at prising these men out of their marriages.

[ExpatInItaly]

You make a mind-boggling number of excuses for this man, OP. 

I think you could find a way justify (to yourself, mostly)  just about any questionable behaviour or claims from him. 

[TamBuktu]

Yeah please understand I'm just trying to scope out the situation at this point. I feel like I almost exhausted the weird points, besides not fully understanding some of them.

Monogamy: I guess he isn't / he wasn't. He has been in kind of open relationship before but claims not by his choice. I don't know is it a character trait or circumstances.

[elaine567]

58 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Monogamy: I guess he isn't / he wasn't. He has been in kind of open relationship before but claims not by his choice. I don't know is it a character trait or circumstances.

What were the circumstances?

[stillafool]

13 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I'm not sure where you got this lol - nope, nobody is paying the way of the other. We are both fortunate enough to be stable financially, after many many years of schooling and efforts. All he has ever helped me with is teaching me how to do hands on things regarding property maintenance, remodeling etc. We both have STEM jobs, that's for hobby and side income.
 

I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about his wife.

[stillafool]

12 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I was looking for a way to collect my thoughts. In that sense, this has been very helpful - even the unpleasant exchanges made me think what I am doing wrong and how to change.

It's a bit of an unfortunate situation and if I was the reader I would have been probably criticizing too, I am that moralist lol in many aspects, but I really really believe it's different. And besides being something out of character for me to start with, if I have to be honest - I have no regrets. Some things are just meant to be.

You still didn't answer the question.