It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

I predict, having opened this Pandora’s box, you will not be able to go back to the blissful ignorance that you have previously enjoyed with this man. The frustration will grow into bitterness as you wait and watch for signs of progress… It will be a year of suffering - trying in vain to bend this man to your will… Waiting, watching, wondering…

That scares me to death tbh, mostly because I can’t pretend everything is ok when he now knows what’s on my heart.

Otherwise, just like him, I can somewhat dissociate and enjoy day to day. 

[Wiseman2]

23 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Plus protecting my future children

There are no children. Focus on the cheater in front of you rather than a family and marriage that do not exist with him.

You are free. You are single. You are young enough to find love and a decent loyal man. You are free and young enough to get married and start a family. 

But only if you free  yourself from him and choose a better life for yourself than one he drags you down into with him.

[RebeccaR]

38 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Yes, unfortunately that’s what it boils down to.

Plus protecting my future children from a hot mess if she turns vindictive.

It’s amazing that you are setting up this poor betrayed woman as an enemy of innocent babies. Instead of recognizing that you are the cause of any “vindictiveness” she might feel and you could just avoid it by leaving her husband alone and using different genetic material to father your children.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

It’s amazing that you are setting up this poor betrayed woman as an enemy of innocent babies. Instead of recognizing that you are the cause of any “vindictiveness” she might feel and you could just avoid it by leaving her husband alone and using different genetic material to father your children.

Let’s not make her a saint - there is a lot going there too, but Wiseman is right- at the moment we don’t have children to worry about

[RebeccaR]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

Let’s not make her a saint - there is a lot going there too, but Wiseman is right- at the moment we don’t have children to worry about

Regardless, she hasn’t harmed you the way you have harmed her

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Regardless, she hasn’t harmed you the way you have harmed her

Right..

Just attaching to the opinion but I have to change topic for a second.

The spiritual side. He got me going into his childhood church where I’m very very very obviously not belonging to the demographics which can only be explained with family/partner. I’m being vague on purpose but I’m sure the idea is clear.

This has been going on for about couple of years and just today, the minister started questioning. Things regarding who i there with and why. I was about to lose it. I’m currently very involved with them yet I don’t know if anyone knows our or his relationship status. If his plan was to keep us a secret permanently I think he wasn’t planning too well so to speak. I’m dreading explaining to over 100 people if push comes to shove and the questions continue

[LynneVicious]

Tam,

Kindly, these are the consequences. This is nothing compared to the fallout of a dday. 

[Allupinnit]

Why give him another entire year of being married to someone else when it takes 5 minutes to tell your spouse you want a divorce?  

Can you even fathom going through the emotional hell of another year of holidays, birthdays, vacations and family time that don't involve you?  

I can't help but laugh a bit at the thought that you think you can 'coach' him and sway his decision to leave his wife, sell his house, move in to an apartment to be with you - girl this sort of thinking is THIRSTY AF and men never respond to that.  

The fact you're willing to go through another year of this torture is crazy to me.

 

[TamBuktu]

11 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

Tam,

Kindly, these are the consequences. This is nothing compared to the fallout of a dday. 

Oh yes I felt it in my guts

[TamBuktu]

5 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

Why give him another entire year of being married to someone else when it takes 5 minutes to tell your spouse you want a divorce?  

Can you even fathom going through the emotional hell of another year of holidays, birthdays, vacations and family time that don't involve you?  

I can't help but laugh a bit at the thought that you think you can 'coach' him and sway his decision to leave his wife, sell his house, move in to an apartment to be with you - girl this sort of thinking is THIRSTY AF and men never respond to that.  

The fact you're willing to go through another year of this torture is crazy to me.

 

What coaching, what apartment?

I said above I’m coaching myself how to lead a conversation 

The property I own is as big as his (not an apartment, not that it matters) and we spend as much time if not more together in my place as I spent in previous live in relationship 

Nobody is selling anything, there are no common properties or kids involved, nothing besides an estranged spouse in her 60s

Edited November 14, 2021 by TamBuktu

[BaileyB]

10 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Oh yes I felt it in my guts

This only gets worse Tam, not better.

It only gets harder this year as you wait for him to make a decision. It only gets harder if/when there is a d-day. It only gets harder if he ever decides to leave and he has to deal with the reality of divorce. It only gets harder if he doesn’t divorce, and you have to end this relationship…

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I said above I’m coaching myself how to lead a conversation 

And what exactly is your intention? Why do you need to coach yourself to lead a conversation? The very word “lead” gives away your intention… You will lead and he will follow - and in this way, you are attempting to maneuver him into compliance - that’s a good phrase for what you are trying to do here…

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by BaileyB

[Allupinnit]

Wait - you all are keeping this ruse up in front of your entire church?!  

What about the whole "Thou shalt not commit adultery" thing?  

That wasn't a suggestion because some people might get their feelings hurt if you do.  It's because God recognizes the seriousness of the commitment of marriage, how it reflects Christ's selfless love for His Church, because he knows he didn't create us to be duplicitous and the angst and pain you feel are a a consequence of your ongoing sin.  He knows the cost of it to our well-being, our reputations, our finances, just how far-reaching the destruction goes like ripples in a pond affecting not only our own lives but those lives around us we're supposed to love like He called us to.

If you proclaim to be a woman of faith I think God's got some real and hard truths about yourself and human nature that you need to start paying attention to.  Don't be the hypocrite, the moral failing that drives people out of the faith.

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

This only gets worse Tam, not better.

It only gets harder this year as you wait for him to make a decision. It only gets harder if/when there is a d-day. It only gets harder if he ever decides to leave and he has to deal with the reality of divorce. It only gets harder if he doesn’t divorce, and you have to end this relationship…

And what exactly is your intention?

 

To gain clarity and eventually set goals, first is urgent but not emergent, second one- I have set the year deadline (in my head).

And yes I’m shaken how hard it was even to consider talking about it with a third party that knows us both. It will be a roller coaster and only way for this to work is extreme focus and composure.

Im dreading the D-day as much as he does, I just see the other side more clearly I think. Anyway focusing one day at a time 

[ExpatInItaly]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Im dreading the D-day as much as he does, I just see the other side more clearly I think. Anyway focusing one day at a time 

No, you are only seeing one possible other side. 

There is another that doesn't look anything like what you're dreaming of. 

 

[RebeccaR]

13 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Im dreading the D-day as much as he does, I just see the other side more clearly I think.

I don’t think he wants what’s on the other side. 

[RebeccaR]

51 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

The property I own is as big as his (not an apartment, not that it matters) and we spend as much time if not more together in my place as I spent in previous live in relationship 

House, apartment, it doesn’t matter. Clearly he likes his current living situation enough to want to stay there. You could live in a palace, and he might still prefer his own building, tinkering around the units fixing the drywall. 
 

But really, the biggest mistake you made in the very beginning was assuming he and his wife don’t care about each other, simply because they don’t express themselves and spend as much time together as you think they should. You unilaterally decided his marriage was a sham. He never actually said that himself. You set up your whole life and future childbearing based on this assumption, which might very well be wrong. That’s why he’s not eager to get to the other side.

[RebeccaR]

Curious how long again you created the frozen embryos. Recently, or earlier in your relationship? As far as he knows, the reason was to test how fertilizable your eggs were? Was he just doing you a favor as a friend or were you already at the “dating” stage? That’s why I wondered earlier about surrogacy, maybe his wife blessed this attempt because she knew he wanted kids and she’s too old to have them.

[elaine567]

39 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

we spend as much time if not more together in my place as I spent in previous live in relationship 

And that is part of the problem.
You have convinced yourself that you and he are in a "proper" relationship.
You are wife #1,  of course you are...
Given the choice you are asking him to make, he will chose you, of course he will..
It is a no brainer.
BUT somehow he is struggling, he has not rushed into your arms, desperate to make you his.
No, his reaction to your proposition, is detached and overly cautious if not fearful and maybe even panicked...
He is not actually saying no, but he is not saying yes either. Listen to what that is telling you.

I would not waste a year waiting for him.
He needs to show you he means business right away.
I know you want some more time to "persuade" him, but guys railroaded into marriage and kids are  rarely happy  being "trapped" into lifelong commitment.
He should marry you gladly and  with love and joy in his heart, else it is just a further waste of your time... 

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

an estranged spouse 

Not estranged, they are still living together and he goes home to her every night...

[RebeccaR]

32 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

He should marry you gladly and  with love and joy in his heart, else it is just a further waste of your time.

This is so clear it’s practically screaming. I am worried OP cannot see past the narrative she’s constructed wherein the MM is merely paralyzed by unreasonable fears, and once she reassures him of a calm and happy future, he will finally see the light. Offering to pay the BS’s violent sons to leave the happy couple alone is a desperate move, but in her narrative it is entirely necessary to reassure her MM of his safety before he will proceed.

I’m also worried that OP has too strong of an addiction to MM to actually move on to Plan B or Plan C. She’s built her whole future around an idea that he’s not on board with. 

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

 yes I’m shaken how hard it was even to consider talking about it with a third party that knows us both. It will be a roller coaster and only way for this to work is extreme focus and composure.

It seems like under the cryptic robotic writing is an intelligent confused women who wants normal things in life. Marriage, family, a man who's in love and committed.

However as normal and healthy as your goals and desires are for your life, this man you are with is a toxic cheater.

This may be why you are hiding behind the outlines, riddles, plans, approaches, etc.

[EleanorRigby2000]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:17 PM, TamBuktu said:

It's perfectly fine with me but I can see why it won't be for the majority of women out there. It is just another aspect of what makes us a "bonded pair"

This comment, especially "Bonded pair" has caused me to assume you are a BDSM couple.  If that's the case, have you considered this is why he is with you?  You could do things sexually that his wife refuses.  If so, that could be why he's staying around.  Women are emotional beings, and men are physical.  While you are in love WITH him, he may love you but not truly be in love WITH you, but love that you fulfill his carnal desires in a way no other woman has before.  

I could be incredibly wrong here with my assumption, and I apologize if I have offended.  My whole purpose to reply is to given a different viewpoint that could potentially help you.  

[elaine567]

5 hours ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

 While you are in love WITH him, he may love you but not truly be in love WITH you, but love that you fulfill his carnal desires in a way no other woman has before.  

This is not uncommon.
Men in affairs, may "love" their OW, but not in a marry me, have my kids, kind of a way.

More like, I love what we are doing, I love the sex, I love the fun,  I love the affection, I love the way you love me...
They may future fake as part of the "fun", but some can be very  surprised when the OW then takes them seriously.
I hope that is not what is happening here for Tam's sake, but it could be.

[TamBuktu]

10 hours ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

This comment, especially "Bonded pair" has caused me to assume you are a BDSM couple.  If that's the case, have you considered this is why he is with you?  You could do things sexually that his wife refuses.  If so, that could be why he's staying around.  Women are emotional beings, and men are physical.  While you are in love WITH him, he may love you but not truly be in love WITH you, but love that you fulfill his carnal desires in a way no other woman has before.  

I could be incredibly wrong here with my assumption, and I apologize if I have offended.  My whole purpose to reply is to given a different viewpoint that could potentially help you.  

Well I have some thoughts about this.

Although we are not a traditional BDSM couple but he's a bit non-standard (mainly fantasies, nothing extreme) and also he is definitely on the submissive side. Our sex life is great but it took a while to get to where we are.

But I can't imagine sexuality being the main focus in our relationship for him for many reasons. One is how incredibly slow we transitioned our relationship to sexual. Second is in his world, women only are allowed to initiate - I don't want to get into too much detail but he is not the typical dominant guy that chases women. Also the things we got involved in together under his directive are just simply incompatible with sexual context (think church, spending time with older family members etc). I hope that makes sense.

[TamBuktu]

21 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Curious how long again you created the frozen embryos. Recently, or earlier in your relationship? As far as he knows, the reason was to test how fertilizable your eggs were? Was he just doing you a favor as a friend or were you already at the “dating” stage? That’s why I wondered earlier about surrogacy, maybe his wife blessed this attempt because she knew he wanted kids and she’s too old to have them.

Right around the transition from best friends / casual to serious. At this point we haven't discussed at all what having kids together will entail etc. I made it as medical as I can. In the context of what I do (I am not a doctor but something in the field) I think he didn't think too much of it. It's the things I live and breathe for and yes, that's another level, but if I could give you the whole context it will make sense.

On the practical side, I had to go through too many procedures myself and the doctors were not letting me anymore so you can think of it as friendly favor more than a relationship step.