It's complicated - insight needed

[LynneVicious]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Right, so could you suggest a reasonable way to put deadlines without being an ultimatum? In my case it's only the biological reason (childbearing/childrearing) that I can justify as just a fact not ultimatum... but yet I know that's big part of his hesitation as this will be the biggest life change.

The way I look at it is: nothing ventured, nothing gained... if you don’t tell him of your deadlines, how is he to know? All this walking on eggshells, gentle swaying etc. that is not how a healthy couple communicates.

I am of the opinion that, if he loves you as much as you claim, then if you gave him deadlines, he would be willing to jump through hoops to meet those deadlines so he doesn’t lose you. 

[LynneVicious]

1 minute ago, TamBuktu said:

That’s based on your personal experience? I’ve supported some people through divorce and it was never that simple.. 

I wanted my divorce so badly, I took the reins in a lot of things. I wanted it so badly, that I gave in to unreasonable demands from my ex husband just to achieve it. It was so worth it. 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Not really. To me a deadline needs to be a sort of ultimatum, otherwise for something like this it carries little weight. If he can't bring himself to start separating, you move on. If you're really going to try to get him to leave, to me the issue is your distaste for (reasonable time-frame) ultimatums. Deadlines imply (some sort of) consequences.

Your point about your bio clock is certainly a valid approach that perhaps meets your requirements here though.

Yes. I have a fear. That he will agree on having kids (as he is open to it even right now), we’ll move forward with the plan, he’ll get scared and back off.

I know that’s catastrophic thinking but it’s understandable why I am worried, I hope.

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, LynneVicious said:

The way I look at it is: nothing ventured, nothing gained... if you don’t tell him of your deadlines, how is he to know? All this walking on eggshells, gentle swaying etc. that is not how a healthy couple communicates.

I am of the opinion that, if he loves you as much as you claim, then if you gave him deadlines, he would be willing to jump through hoops to meet those deadlines so he doesn’t lose you. 

That’s true. It’s my own fears speaking louder here. I need to get over it and be direct.

May I ask what prompted you to divorce? Was there abuse, neglect, cheating etc or you both just drifted apart? I’m just trying to understand the “other side” since I’ve never been through it.

[LynneVicious]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

That’s true. It’s my own fears speaking louder here. I need to get over it and be direct.

May I ask what prompted you to divorce? Was there abuse, neglect, cheating etc or you both just drifted apart? I’m just trying to understand the “other side” since I’ve never been through it.

The divorce was a result of all of the above you mentioned lol. I guess it makes it ‘easier’ in a sense that there are valid reasons for my divorce. Although, having your true love waiting for you while you idle away in a loveless marriage seems like a valid reason to divorce too 😉. 

You’re going to need to voice your needs if you want action. Any action. I don’t regret my marriage one bit because I’ve got my kids. Since you want children so very much, you’re going to need to take action. The result will be what it is meant to be. 

[stillafool]

15 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

That’s based on your personal experience? I’ve supported some people through divorce and it was never that simple.. 

I didn't say "emotions" were simple going through a  divorce.  I've been through one and even though I was ready to divorce there was a certain sadness that the marriage didn't work out.  However the act of filing for a divorce is very simple if that is actually what a person wants to do.  They don't need approval from their spouse to do it.  In otherwords, he doesn't need to even tell his wife he wants to divorce he can just file and have her served if he so wishes.

[BaileyB]

8 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Although we are not a traditional BDSM couple but he's a bit non-standard and he is definitely on the submissive side.

In his world, women only are allowed to initiate - he is not the typical dominant guy that chases women.

I just have to say, this is so in keeping with what you have described about his personality and his relationships. He has managed to involve himself with two women who are likely both assertive but in very different ways - one who is older than him and the other has a plan for his divorce and his/their life together. He, aside from the fact that he is making a decision/asserting control by not making a decision/following your plan, just coasts through life not making decisions/allowing others to take the lead as many conflict avoidant/submissive people do - 

[basil67]

5 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Lol all I can do is show him the pros and cons, as well as give him confidence.

If he wants to change, he will. It’s about overcoming inertia (which is hard)

If there's one piece of advice I could give, it's to not take on a partner with the hope or expectation that they will change.  Thing is, most people don't change.   This guy has had 50 years to get his act together in terms of being assertive and he's done nothing.   You also can't give him confidence.  This is something which needs to come from inside him.

I fear that if you end up with him, you will start to see him as another child.   Someone who can't make a decision and is scared of change will be a dead weight around your neck.  Do you really want to be the person making all the family and parenting decisions?  

[BaileyB]

16 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I fear that if you end up with him, you will start to see him as another child. 

And he will come to resent you for “parenting” in much the same way that he apparently resents his current wife.

There is a subset of men who chose for themselves a woman who is the more assertive and dominant partner. Some men will chose a relationship with a woman who will take control of most aspects of married life. 

And while this is what they chose, over time some will grow resentful. some may over time decide to leave if life becomes unbearable. Or, along comes another woman who offers a listening ear, believes his tale of woe about his controlling or uninterested wife, assumes that the fact that they don’t spend time together or sleep in the same room anymore means that their marriage is all but over -

The thing is, he has chosen this for himself - it works well for him that his spouse manages him and the home/family as much as he likes the attention of another woman. Both women serve their purpose. 
 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

An extramarital affair is the passive aggressive solution for a conflict avoidant man. 

[ExpatInItaly]

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

We met them through a hobby that we share few years ago. He has been going there before me but they weren’t talking.

I know something is fishy (especially based on family meetings) but yet everyone here believes I’m delusional to think that…

That's because itt's not fishy for the reasons you think (that their marriage is broken, etc.) 

It's fishy because he plays make-believe with everyone, including you. 

Have you ever actually met his wife? Seen her around? 

[Wiseman2]

8 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

 he will agree on having kids as he is open to it even right now, we’ll move forward with the plan, he’ll get scared and back off.

Could you clarify? He's ok going forward with trying to get pregnant with the embryo, but he wants no responsibility?

Also he agreed to donate his sperm, and was ok with that, but now you want to get married, but he's not ok with that because he doesn't want to divorce and is giving you all the reasons why he prefers to stay married?

Giving him "timelines" won't help with any of your dilemmas. 

You'll still be childless and unmarried when this  "timeline" expires.

You do have options. The sooner you dump him, the sooner you could find a decent honest man who you could have a family with. 

 [ ]

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
off topic

[basil67]

10 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Giving him "timelines" won't help with any of your dilemmas. 

My hope is that trying to pin him to a timeline will show the OP that he's just spinning his wheels.  That he doesn't have any concrete intentions of leaving.

[TamBuktu]

Wow I see a lot of insights in the past few posts

13 hours ago, stillafool said:

I didn't say "emotions" were simple going through a  divorce.  I've been through one and even though I was ready to divorce there was a certain sadness that the marriage didn't work out.  However the act of filing for a divorce is very simple if that is actually what a person wants to do.  They don't need approval from their spouse to do it.  In otherwords, he doesn't need to even tell his wife he wants to divorce he can just file and have her served if he so wishes.

 Yeah, I am aware the physical side of filing is very simple and he doesn't need her permission. I actually believe that's exactly how he'll do it (avoid talking to her in advance) and I am cringing thinking about it. It's one thing preparing someone that divorce is coming, and a whole other thing to blindside them. And if I am right and this happens, yes, not unlikely she or her family would try to teach him/us a lesson

[TamBuktu]

11 hours ago, BaileyB said:

I just have to say, this is so in keeping with what you have described about his personality and his relationships. He has managed to involve himself with two women who are likely both assertive but in very different ways - one who is older than him and the other has a plan for his divorce and his/their life together. He, aside from the fact that he is making a decision/asserting control by not making a decision/following your plan, just coasts through life not making decisions/allowing others to take the lead as many conflict avoidant/submissive people do - 

That's true.

I wanted to clear up something. I know from my style of writing he sounds like a passive "loser". That's not how he is in real life. He is passive, yes, but over the course of his life he has achieved considerable professional success, degrees, etc. He eventually gets what he wants, just in a very slow way.. Like he doesn't face the difficulty but waits a circumstance to drop. That's how he made his career - on the surface, it was a matter of luck, from knowing him - it was just a good strategy - when to wait, and when to strike.

I am saying this in regards to our relationship too - the progress points were stepwise and in a very controlled and predictable (looking in retrospect) manner.

 

I agree though that he is also a bit passive aggressive in his approach. The same way how he didn't tell his boss he left the job, he is checked out from his marital relationship and she might not even realize to want extent. 

It reminded me that one time, years ago, he said something in the lines "when someone blocks your way out, that's what they get".........

[TamBuktu]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

If there's one piece of advice I could give, it's to not take on a partner with the hope or expectation that they will change.  Thing is, most people don't change.   This guy has had 50 years to get his act together in terms of being assertive and he's done nothing.   You also can't give him confidence.  This is something which needs to come from inside him.

I fear that if you end up with him, you will start to see him as another child.   Someone who can't make a decision and is scared of change will be a dead weight around your neck.  Do you really want to be the person making all the family and parenting decisions?  

Yes.

I slept over this, this has been my mistake throughout. I need to work with his strengths and not try to build up on features that are not there so to speak.

For parenting - I am hoping to have the lion share of responsibilities. I would love him to be a present father though - he can give so much that I can't in terms of calmness, consistency etc... This is something that I never had and craved my entire life for a paternal figure like him. If, as a father, he is anything like the way how he treats children and animals around us, I can overlook the indecisiveness and fill up for this role.

[TamBuktu]

10 hours ago, BaileyB said:

And he will come to resent you for “parenting” in much the same way that he apparently resents his current wife.

There is a subset of men who chose for themselves a woman who is the more assertive and dominant partner. Some men will chose a relationship with a woman who will take control of most aspects of married life. 

And while this is what they chose, over time some will grow resentful. some may over time decide to leave if life becomes unbearable. Or, along comes another woman who offers a listening ear, believes his tale of woe about his controlling or uninterested wife, assumes that the fact that they don’t spend time together or sleep in the same room anymore means that their marriage is all but over -

The thing is, he has chosen this for himself - it works well for him that his spouse manages him and the home/family as much as he likes the attention of another woman. Both women serve their purpose. 
 

Yes, he might start resenting me if I overstep.. He calls her "Mom HerName".. I always thought it's a joke but maybe that's what he wants?? A Mom who is controlling him while he is sneaking out? I hope not but who knows.

She called once when we are together and she was on speaker. He was driving me home after a holiday event. Conversation was like
Her: "HisName, where are you? We had a plan to pack the gifts for my kids tonight!" Him: "Yeah yeah" Her: "Would you still help me packing? I need this shipped tomorrow" Him "Yeah I am at the house" Her: "When? Which house?" Him "Soon. The other house. Bye".

That's kind of sums up how they interact. She demands things ("we" planned, you will do it). He sneaks out with half-lies (he was going to his "other house" but not the one she'd think of lol). To me that sounds like a mother/child not partner/partner dynamics.

And yes, I make it easy for him because he knows he has my emotional support no matter what.

[TamBuktu]

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

That's because itt's not fishy for the reasons you think (that their marriage is broken, etc.) 

It's fishy because he plays make-believe with everyone, including you. 

Have you ever actually met his wife? Seen her around? 

I did, several times at her work place. I've been to her parents place too, we get them groceries, he's not allowed in  (This was pre-pandemics so isn't for safety reasons)

She doesn't ever show up with his friends/family.

What do you make out of it?

[TamBuktu]

5 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Could you clarify? He's ok going forward with trying to get pregnant with the embryo, but he wants no responsibility?

Also he agreed to donate his sperm, and was ok with that, but now you want to get married, but he's not ok with that because he doesn't want to divorce and is giving you all the reasons why he prefers to stay married?

Giving him "timelines" won't help with any of your dilemmas. 

You'll still be childless and unmarried when this  "timeline" expires.

You do have options. The sooner you dump him, the sooner you could find a decent honest man who you could have a family with. 

 [ ]

 

No I didn't mean that. I meant he is not concerned having unprotected sex... He's not actively seeking it (like embryo transfer) but seem to be ok if it is a result from circumstances (like unexpected natural pregnancy). I mean to me it fits the narrative "let the circumstances decide for us", rather then him trying to actively avoid parenting responsibilities.

(Btw I know my body fertility patterns so the above is not a concern for actually happening, I just find his thinking fascinating..)

[Starswillshine]

8 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

That's kind of sums up how they interact. She demands things ("we" planned, you will do it). He sneaks out with half-lies (he was going to his "other house" but not the one she'd think of lol). To me that sounds like a mother/child not partner/partner dynamics.

No. This is normal marriage dealings. You plan things together. You want to view this woman in such a bad light and him as a victim your judgement has been completely clouded. 

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I did, several times at her work place. I've been to her parents place too, we get them groceries, he's not allowed in  (This was pre-pandemics so isn't for safety reasons)

She doesn't ever show up with his friends/family.

What do you make out of it?

Why do you care so much about what is going on with his wife?  It's none of your business.  You have no idea if she sees her family or not and it's not your concern.  You are having sex with her husband isn't that enough for you?

[TamBuktu]

5 hours ago, basil67 said:

My hope is that trying to pin him to a timeline will show the OP that he's just spinning his wheels.  That he doesn't have any concrete intentions of leaving.

If he is anything like me when pinned - it might actually have adverse effect (stop plans that were in process)

[TamBuktu]

1 minute ago, stillafool said:

 

Why do you care so much about what is going on with his wife?  It's none of your business.  You have no idea if she sees her family or not and it's not your concern.  You are having sex with her husband isn't that enough for you?

I don't. I have my opinion formed years ago. I am just painting a picture here. 

To me is fascinating how biased people are when hearing the word "wife". If i wrote the same thing (i.e. giving orders, never being present etc) outside of the affair context - I'm sure the opinions will be completely different.

[Wiseman2]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Her: "HisName, where are you? We had a plan to pack the gifts for my kids tonight!" Him: "Yeah yeah" Her: "Would you still help me packing? I need this shipped tomorrow" Him "Yeah I am at the house" Her: "When? Which house?" Him "Soon. The other house. Bye".

They are wrapping gifts together like a family. There's nothing here that indicates he's divorcing.

However he seems like an awful husband.

When they are together, do you have friends and family to spend time with on holidays,etc?

[stillafool]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

No I didn't mean that. I meant he is not concerned having unprotected sex... He's not actively seeking it (like embryo transfer) but seem to be ok if it is a result from circumstances (like unexpected natural pregnancy). I mean to me it fits the narrative "let the circumstances decide for us", rather then him trying to actively avoid parenting responsibilities.

(Btw I know my body fertility patterns so the above is not a concern for actually happening, I just find his thinking fascinating..)

This is confusing.  Didn't he already donate sperm for a baby that you both want when you get together?  So now you are having unprotected sex with him and neither of you care?  If that is the case you will end up pregnant and perhaps when he knows the child you both want is on it's way he will divorce and be with you.  Isn't that what you want?