It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

You said earlier today that your relationship situation is urgent and you have a 1 year timeline. Which statement did you really mean?

I don't see contradiction. Urgent but not emergent. I eventually need to figure out where we are going but I can wait an year. I can't wait forever of course, year to me seems reasonable?

I could afford to give it several years to develop - that's what I mean in my responset by no real sense of urgency.

The year timeline is mainly because of our ages - I don't want to be super old parents, I said the same thing previously.
 

[RebeccaR]

Question 1, if children were not a factor would you be content with the current situation permanently? It’s important to assess that, after all parenthood isn’t guaranteed regardless of your partner 

Question 2, you have stated that some of your friends and family members know you are involved with a married man. What are their views, what advice do they give you? After all, they actually know you. We don’t.

[RebeccaR]

3 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

It’s important to assess that, after all parenthood isn’t guaranteed regardless of your partner 

Just like people stay with spouses who turn out to be infertile: would you leave him merely because he can’t give you children due to circumstances? Or does your love and your bond transcend the need for children?

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

I still trust him with my eyes open so to speak.

You are choosing to trust a man who by the very nature of your relationship, is capable of incredible deception. He lies to his wife everyday about his whereabouts, his activities, his commitment to her. And yet, this same man, you have decided is worthy of your trust.

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

i don't see someone who is playing a master plan - I see someone who is almost seeking help by the circumstances - because that's the best he thinks he can do.

Respectfully, the person with the “master plan” is you. 

You have absolutely committed yourself to the idea that this man is a helpless victim, unable to exercise any personal agency (not without coaching, encouragement, and support from you), unable to believe that he deserves or could achieve anything more. 

[RebeccaR]

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

You have absolutely committed yourself to the idea that this man is a helpless victim, unable to exercise any personal agency (not without coaching, encouragement, and support from you), unable to believe that he deserves or could achieve anything more. 

To be fair, he has entirely encouraged this view. To that extent he has been extremely manipulative.

[BaileyB]

11 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

To be fair, he has entirely encouraged this view. To that extent he has been extremely manipulative.

It certainly sounds like that, and what he has said and done she has then taken it and run with it - 

As is said on this site, married man does very little and the other woman is often quick to fill in the gaps and take it from there - 

I believe that’s what’s happened here. He has done what married men do - shared a few hints that his marriage is not happy, spent lots of time with the other woman, shared some vague and empty promises about future dreams… She has made a whole bunch of assumptions and created a lovely story (or as she would say, a plan).  From her perspective, all that is left to do is execute the plan - she is now confounded by his unwillingness/inability to do so.

He has manipulated the situation in many ways, not the least of which allowing her to believe that he will someday divorce and they will start a family together. He “lies by omission” if for no other reason, he refuses to have an honest and direct discussion about the future of the relationship. She clearly manipulates in that she believes with careful coaching and discussion, she can mold him and guide him to do what is required to achieve their happily ever after…

Both manipulating each other, as per OP neither believing that they are being manipulative or manipulated by their partner. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[Starswillshine]

Never say too much and always speak vaguely so you can never get caught in lies and/or accused of lying. You can just state you NEVER said this or promises that even though you are aware that you completely implied it. 

^it's in the cheater's handbook

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, RebeccaR said:

Question 1, if children were not a factor would you be content with the current situation permanently? It’s important to assess that, after all parenthood isn’t guaranteed regardless of your partner 

Question 2, you have stated that some of your friends and family members know you are involved with a married man. What are their views, what advice do they give you? After all, they actually know you. We don’t.

On 1: yes. I would have stayed with him as is for a long time, because I feel my needs from a partner are satisfied. (Probably would still want to get married down the road but the timeline won't be 1 year more like 10-15 years - when other needs may arise like health issues)

On 2: Their opinions really vary. Overarching theme is - if it makes you happy, be with him BUT some would put it like "he needs to grow balls". 
Shared pros are: he's caring towards me, towards them, I seem very happy around him, he is calming me down/complementing me, he's generally kind to people
Shared cons: he is too passive and indecisive, doesn't know what he wants, wasting my time and fertile years, the morality of the situation, once he did it with me he is prone to doing it again

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

You are choosing to trust a man who by the very nature of your relationship, is capable of incredible deception. He lies to his wife everyday about his whereabouts, his activities, his commitment to her. And yet, this same man, you have decided is worthy of your trust.

Respectfully, the person with the “master plan” is you. 

You have absolutely committed yourself to the idea that this man is a helpless victim, unable to exercise any personal agency (not without coaching, encouragement, and support from you), unable to believe that he deserves or could achieve anything more. 

Yes, to an extent we both manipulated each other in fulfilling what we need. I have a "masterplan" because I am a planner, and he is "lying by omission" because that's how he approaches life. It's messed up if you look it this way, no wonder how we ended up together...
 

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Just like people stay with spouses who turn out to be infertile: would you leave him merely because he can’t give you children due to circumstances? Or does your love and your bond transcend the need for children?

I think so, but to me that's absolutely last resort - I'll first use all the advances of modern medicine to my power. E.g. if I can't carry we can use a gestational surrogate, I've tested both already for mutations and karyotype issues, if push comes to shove there is always donor egg, donor sperm, donor embryo etc).

Or are you referring to he unable to give me children because he is not divorced? That's a whole different story, I'd say I probably will put having kids on the frontline after next year.

[BaileyB]

12 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

On 2:
Shared pros are: he's caring towards me, I seem very happy around him, he is calming me down/complementing me, he's generally kind to people
Shared cons: he is too passive and indecisive, doesn't know what he wants, wasting my time and fertile years, the morality of the situation, untrustworthy/at risk to be unfaithful again. 

Serious question - do the pros outweighs the cons for you? 

Consider this, your friend is in a relationship with a man who is lazy, indecisive, and unmotivated. He doesn’t know what he wants, refuses to communicate, and is non-committal. As a result, the relationship is vey one sided and you are concerned that she is wasting her youth/opportunity to have children. Add to that - she can’t trust him because he has a history of infidelity and she knows he can be very deceptive…

BUT - he is caring toward her (even though he won’t communicate with her or commit to the relationship/the things she wants most in life), he is kind to people, and she is happy when they are together. 

What would you say to your friend? Would you say - good decision! The fact that he gives you some attention and affection negates all the other negative qualities and red flags -

Edited November 16, 2021 by BaileyB

[RebeccaR]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Or are you referring to he unable to give me children because he is not divorced?

That’s what I meant, yes. Would you leave a partner you truly love just because he cannot be exclusive which is your requirement for having children. So you answered that, which is my question.

however, it’s interesting that you would go with donor genetic material when you said you wouldn’t before. 

[RebeccaR]

Tam, if you force him to divorce - which is the only way he will ever actually divorce - I don’t see how either you or he will ever be happy. That’s the bottom line of the advice I can give you after 42 exhausting pages here.

[basil67]

18 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

I think so, but to me that's absolutely last resort - I'll first use all the advances of modern medicine to my power. E.g. if I can't carry we can use a gestational surrogate, I've tested both already for mutations and karyotype issues, if push comes to shove there is always donor egg, donor sperm, donor embryo etc).

This is all good planning if it's your decision alone.  But not all partners are up for more radical ideas.  The more common reasons is the stress this kind of thing brings on a relationship.   Once you're a couple, all of these things would have to be embraced by both parties. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

The more common reasons is the stress this kind of thing brings on a relationship. 

And there is already going to be significant stress because he must file and settle a divorce settlement.

[Sun Seeker]

Caught up with this thread and just wow. It's so sad to see someone have such low self confidence and self esteem that they have to resort to all this and become so desperate.

OP you need some serious mental health help as you can't even see what's happening.

When your whole fantasy world comes crashing down (and it will, I really hope), I guess you will learn the hard way.

[ExpatInItaly]

9 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Tam, if you force him to divorce - which is the only way he will ever actually divorce - I don’t see how either you or he will ever be happy. 

I agree. 

He isn't doing any of this on his own. It's all you pushing it along, @TamBuktu. It's you strategizing, carefully plotting out conversations, doing mental gymnastics about how to make him see what you see. But a decent relationship with any chance of survial doesn't look like that.

When someone isn't naturally motivated to be with you and needs to be coached and prodded and talked into it, it just doesn't work in the end. 

Period. 

[TamBuktu]

10 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I agree. 

He isn't doing any of this on his own. It's all you pushing it along, @TamBuktu. It's you strategizing, carefully plotting out conversations, doing mental gymnastics about how to make him see what you see. But a decent relationship with any chance of survial doesn't look like that.

When someone isn't naturally motivated to be with you and needs to be coached and prodded and talked into it, it just doesn't work in the end. 

Period. 

Expat, if I wanted to force anything I would have done it years ago and put a “my way or the high way” ultimatum - which obviously I haven’t done nor intending to do.

There is a lot of misinterpretation ongoing- obviously because we are digging in this, on my end it’s mostly to understand what’s going on.

Too many responses are clouded because “it’s just wrong and there must be something wrong with MM or OW”, ignoring all the rest. I get that in real life too.

Things beyond that boil down to a very difficult life decision on his end, and likely circumstances which we fail to even consider. Everyone jumps on him being “spineless”- I hope that’s the real problem but I doubt it is.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, Sun Seeker said:

Caught up with this thread and just wow. It's so sad to see someone have such low self confidence and self esteem that they have to resort to all this and become so desperate.

OP you need some serious mental health help as you can't even see what's happening.

When your whole fantasy world comes crashing down (and it will, I really hope), I guess you will learn the hard way.

That’s all you got from it lol? Thankfully I don’t have confidence issues, and the bottomline is I’m very happy with my life, and he’s the cherry on the cake. The whole point has been to understand the situation better, I’m not looking for actionable items (besides maybe communication tips)

[ExpatInItaly]

5 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Too many responses are clouded because “it’s just wrong and there must be something wrong with MM or OW”, ignoring all the rest. I get that in real life too.

And why do you suppose that is? 

[ExpatInItaly]

6 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Expat, if I wanted to force anything I would have done it years ago and put a “my way or the high way” ultimatum - which obviously I haven’t done nor intending to do

You didn't understand my point. 

It is indeed you now nudging along these conversations about the future, trying to get him to see "the other side", and so on. He didn't come to you with that. It was you, not him, trying to talk about concrete plans for leaving his marriage. It isn't being offered by him. 

And that is my point: this is all coming from you. He isn't volunteering to do anything. That is what you are not getting, but you are making all kinds of excuses. But it's not that complicated: he just isn't into you the way you are into him. Not enough to leave his marriage for you. 

When you have to resort to carefully strategizing how to even talk about a future with a man  - well, with respect, it's quite desperate. 

[TamBuktu]

7 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

And why do you suppose that is? 

Because it is a triggering topic.

When something is considered "wrong", the human nature by default is to not even consider why/how/exceptions etc. It's difficult to detach from our beliefs even just for research purposes, I know that well.

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You didn't understand my point. 

It is indeed you now nudging along these conversations about the future, trying to get him to see "the other side", and so on. He didn't come to you with that. It was you, not him, trying to talk about concrete plans for leaving his marriage. It isn't being offered by him. 

And that is my point: this is all coming from you. He isn't volunteering to do anything. That is what you are not getting, but you are making all kinds of excuses. But it's not that complicated: he just isn't into you the way you are into him. Not enough to leave his marriage for you. 

When you have to resort to carefully strategizing how to even talk about a future with a man  - well, with respect, it's quite desperate. 

Ok, got you. This has been quite literally something I brought up within the past 15 days. Maybe it wasn't appropriate. 

The strategy I needed because I actually never expressed simple things over time and same from his end, I think he has been holding back on some conversations. The mistake was attaching "goal" to it, otherwise I don't see it as wrong to chat about where we stand etc.

[Wiseman2]

It's ok to just want to talk to people when he's not around and there's a void, even if you don't really want help or insight. 

He goes back to his wife, the bubble is over for the day and loneliness sets in. All part of being the mistress.

So continuing the bubble feeling by talking about him using the bubble idiosyncratic language, etc. seems to fill the vacancy when he goes home to his wife.

[TamBuktu]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

This is all good planning if it's your decision alone.  But not all partners are up for more radical ideas.  The more common reasons is the stress this kind of thing brings on a relationship.   Once you're a couple, all of these things would have to be embraced by both parties. 

I front loaded most of the work on that end. Also, it's ironically one of the few topics we have been very openly discussing. Without going too much into the reasons, it's just a topic of interest to me so I think I was able to break down what would otherwise be considered radical or difficult into simple scientific facts... On the practical side, 200+ self-administered shots later I sure hope it will be worth it one day.