It's complicated - insight needed

[elaine567]

13 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think to OP, the fact he’s never home in the evenings is proof that BS doesn’t care where he is.

I don't think that necessarily follows, I used to work with a guy who always stayed at work late.
Despite finishing about 4pm, he never went home until after 8.
Sat in his room drinking and speaking to work colleagues on later shifts.
I asked him why he never went home earlier, he said his wife would expect him home early every day and he was in no mind to go home.
She cared, she wanted him home, but he was always "busy" and "working"

[stillafool]

14 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

I think to OP, the fact he’s never home in the evenings is proof that BS doesn’t care where he is. 

Yeah, when in fact he could be at business dinners, meeting clients, hanging with the boys, who knows?  If she's used to him being away in the evenings nothing has changed and she doesn't have a clue about OP.  He's probably had many affairs before this one and they expected him to dump his wife also.

[elaine567]

People in affairs often believe that the wife knows, she has to. They also may believe she condones it, gives her permission.
It is a trick they tell themselves to justify the cheating.
But truth is many wives do not have a clue because they trust, they swallow the lies, they have blind faith in their husband.
The cheaters know they are cheating so it is just so obvious to them, she is oblivious and cheating may never enter her head.
Many cheating men are completely shocked when they see the look of utter devastation on their wife's face when she finds out.
She didn't have a clue.

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Goal is to avoid petty conflict - no relationship thrives on that affiar or otherwise - not to make his life simple.

"the decision to stay or go depends on whether you love this man more than you love yourself. " this hits heart... Who do we love more, ourselves or our true love ? 

Respectfully, this is the kind of mental gymnastics that other women do to justify their involvement and their decision to stay involved with a married man. 

While avoiding unnecessary conflict and promoting a harmonious relationship is generally a good thing in any healthy relationship, to accept that this man is cheating or to say nothing when he goes home to his wife in the evening and does not file for divorce is not “avoiding conflict.” It’s not the same as - for example, how you would pick your battles in a marriage and not criticize the way in which he does/does not do the housework or the fact that he forgot to do something he said he would do. In this context, it’s not exactly healthy behavior for both women to say nothing and not ask any questions. Let’s just say, it  doesn’t sound like he is the only member of this love triangle who is conflict avoidant. 

Ah yes, the idea that “true love” is unconditional and self-sacrificing. This is a statement often made to justify staying in an unhealthy relationship. In fact, relationships need boundaries to be healthy. 

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

He doesn't consider youth a plus, he has chosen only older women in his past love life besides AP.

Why do you keep referring to yourself in the 3rd-person? Your odd writing style suggests you struggle accepting your own role in this affair so you use a lot of distancing language. Like you can't quite bring yourself to admit that this is what your life has become or some such thing.  

Anyway, if he has always chosen older women, then you should probably prepare for him to want another older-woman AP in the future, should he actually ever leave his wife and come to you. You could well be the next "little complication in his life."

You aren't thinking ahead much, based on what you have written here. You're concentrating on him leaving his marriage, which is only just the beginning. It's not as though you would really be gaining a prize man - you'd then be hit the reality of what it's like to be with him, all the time. My strong assumption is it won't be that great.  

 

[EleanorRigby2000]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I mean legally isn't that what every lawyer will advice before divorce is final anyway?

No. I've never heard of a lawyer advising people to continue to live together while divorcing.  What country are you in?  Maybe things are different in your country.  

[EleanorRigby2000]

You state he's conflict avoidant.  That makes me think, you are the one who wanted his sperm so you could freeze embryos.  Perhaps he really didn't want that at all, but he didn't want to tell you no, or create conflict with you, so he spent the money and gave you his sperm.  He could have possibly seen this as a way for you to have his child, which is what you want, and for him to not have any responsibility toward the child since it will be from a frozen embryo.  Unless there are instances where the sperm donor consents to responsibility for frozen embryos. 
 

Do you think he's being honest with you when you are seeing how he's not being honest with his wife or himself?  It would be rare for someone to love their AP more than themselves.  Really think about how he could be more conflict avoidant with you than he is with his wife.  Sure he may tell you he wants you, wants a baby with you, and loves you, but how can you trust that?  His actions need to show it. 

[IrinaM]

I haven't read all the replies so forgive me if this has been addressed already--

OP you keep asking if someone else has been in a similar situation.

YES. Every.single.other.woman.ever. has been in your shoes. The thing is you simply refuse to believe that, and keep bringing up minute details (his age, your age, wife's age, "culture," the time you got sick, the fact that he goes home at night to sleep but first has dinner with you, his frozen embryo with you, whatever) as if these are difference-makers. They're not.

A frozen embryo means nothing, no offense. There are mm who legit keep entirely separate families. But one is always the "first family."

Also you seem a little bit delusional, more so than the average OW. I'm not trying to be mean. Some of your statements are so baffling, like that he spends "whole weekends" with you, except for "sleeping times." This means not the WHOLE weekend, right?

You keep asking if there is something you can do to change the situation and make him leave his wife. This is soooo texbook OW. I just don't understand how you can believe you already have this legitimate loving respectful relationship with this mm, yet you feel the need to change it?

[TamBuktu]

9 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Are you married? What lawyer do you mean? He has not contacted one because he prefers the security of going home to his wife. It's unclear what is meant by these cryptic rhetorical difficult to understand responses. Are you using translation software from another language? No offense but sometimes your responses seem to have nothing to do with the quoted passage.

No just thinking out loud and... obviously need to be relatively cryptic on a very vulnerable topic

[TamBuktu]

9 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

It’s much less difficult when there are no minor children involved, yet he’s still finding it a “nightmare”? Do they have a shared business or significant assets she has claim to? Otherwise he’s just not willing to lift a finger to do it.

No shared business or assets. Declaration of homestead but separate ownership.

That's why the thread, need insights why

What's a nightmare for one person might not be a big deal for another but who is the judge here?

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

Ok so is it possible she doesn't actually know about the affair?
What proof do you have that she knows?
 

no hard evidence.

But lets assume we assume she doesn't how can someone care less?!?! Talking years here. 

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

Good point.

However, I remember reading somewhere that OP has met her MM's family? Which doesn't necessarily mean that the BW knows, but it's an interesting aspect as well.

And that too. All three generations of family. Loving people. And who would assume none of them spoke up, ever?

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

I think to OP, the fact he’s never home in the evenings is proof that BS doesn’t care where he is. The second statement doesn’t follow from the first.

OP, I think you know all the red flags. To me, the main one is that a 49 year old man who never ended a relationship in his life is not going to start now.

Is really the age such a big factor?? Asking seriously. People turn 50 and just give up life- is that common?? Scary

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I don't think that necessarily follows, I used to work with a guy who always stayed at work late.
Despite finishing about 4pm, he never went home until after 8.
Sat in his room drinking and speaking to work colleagues on later shifts.
I asked him why he never went home earlier, he said his wife would expect him home early every day and he was in no mind to go home.
She cared, she wanted him home, but he was always "busy" and "working"

That's a clear example for marriage that should have never happened...

[TamBuktu]

8 hours ago, stillafool said:

Yeah, when in fact he could be at business dinners, meeting clients, hanging with the boys, who knows?  If she's used to him being away in the evenings nothing has changed and she doesn't have a clue about OP.  He's probably had many affairs before this one and they expected him to dump his wife also.

And what makes you think that? And if so why she stayed?

[TamBuktu]

7 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Why do you keep referring to yourself in the 3rd-person? Your odd writing style suggests you struggle accepting your own role in this affair so you use a lot of distancing language. Like you can't quite bring yourself to admit that this is what your life has become or some such thing.  

Anyway, if he has always chosen older women, then you should probably prepare for him to want another older-woman AP in the future, should he actually ever leave his wife and come to you. You could well be the next "little complication in his life."

You aren't thinking ahead much, based on what you have written here. You're concentrating on him leaving his marriage, which is only just the beginning. It's not as though you would really be gaining a prize man - you'd then be hit the reality of what it's like to be with him, all the time. My strong assumption is it won't be that great.  

 

My apologies sir - maybe, just maybe, to protect someone that I love with all my heart and soul.. at a place open for all eyes and mouths so to speak.

He might or I might -  who is a fortune teller here? 

More time together... How exactly? Definitely more quality time spend together then with ex-live-in fiance, just for reference.

When 2 people are so compatible it is just hard to believe it won't be great.. But again - who's the fortune teller here.

[TamBuktu]

6 hours ago, EleanorRigby2000 said:

You state he's conflict avoidant.  That makes me think, you are the one who wanted his sperm so you could freeze embryos.  Perhaps he really didn't want that at all, but he didn't want to tell you no, or create conflict with you, so he spent the money and gave you his sperm.  He could have possibly seen this as a way for you to have his child, which is what you want, and for him to not have any responsibility toward the child since it will be from a frozen embryo.  Unless there are instances where the sperm donor consents to responsibility for frozen embryos. 
 

Do you think he's being honest with you when you are seeing how he's not being honest with his wife or himself?  It would be rare for someone to love their AP more than themselves.  Really think about how he could be more conflict avoidant with you than he is with his wife.  Sure he may tell you he wants you, wants a baby with you, and loves you, but how can you trust that?  His actions need to show it. 

You want the details? Done per doctors order. Frozen oocytes are less predictable and less reliable. That's plan C anyway.

People requested using first person. Ok here it is: I'm conflict avoidant too. Why trust him? It is called love I guess. Things he have done proved a lot of it. Call it being delusional.. that's ok.

[TamBuktu]

4 hours ago, IrinaM said:

You keep asking if there is something you can do to change the situation and make him leave his wife. This is soooo texbook OW. I just don't understand how you can believe you already have this legitimate loving respectful relationship with this mm, yet you feel the need to change it?

Ok, true. So be it. I'll use again first person here on purpose> I am not defending anyone involved and not performing moral assassination either. I'm not playing God here. Yes it is textbook OW. And yet I have yet to find a person I love so deeply and who makes me so happy. It is vey difficult to walk in someone else's shoes --we don't know the paths they had to take. This is the first person, in romantic, friendship and any other sense who has made my heart sing. And sure, I am paying for my sins a hefty price it is, and so be it.

I read the whole thread again and there are useful points and generic too and I probably need to put it to rest for a bit. I will keep reading but please the quest was for insights on unique (or maybe not so unique) situation and not to prove who's faulty, morally wrong or push decision making. 

[EleanorRigby2000]

53 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Ok, true. So be it. I'll use again first person here on purpose> I am not defending anyone involved and not performing moral assassination either. I'm not playing God here. Yes it is textbook OW. And yet I have yet to find a person I love so deeply and who makes me so happy. It is vey difficult to walk in someone else's shoes --we don't know the paths they had to take. This is the first person, in romantic, friendship and any other sense who has made my heart sing. And sure, I am paying for my sins a hefty price it is, and so be it.

I read the whole thread again and there are useful points and generic too and I probably need to put it to rest for a bit. I will keep reading but please the quest was for insights on unique (or maybe not so unique) situation and not to prove who's faulty, morally wrong or push decision making. 

I don't see any responses trying to prove fault, nor stating anything about morality.  An Other Man/ Other Woman forum is one of the last places you will find morality police.  
 

The only thing unique in your situation as opposed to every other OW/OM situation is that you have frozen embryos.  That almost sounds like it could be used to trap him. But we are not in your shoes, only you know your heart and your decisions.  Everything else is replicated through so many other posts in this forum.  
 

You stated you are cryptic to protect people.  Is your MM on this site?  If so, the situation is so unique because of the embryo situation that he would most likely know it was him if he is on this site.  Many are less cryptic and simply refer to people as MM, MW, AP, BW, BH, etc.  The less cryptic the easier it will be to read.  
 

You mentioned you both are conflict avoidant. Do you really think two conflict avoidant people will truly be happy together?  It sounds like both are emotionally immature.  A great, loving relationship will not be successful long-term when both partners are so emotionally immature they are scared to be 100% honest with each other.  Instead, if you do end up together, you will both be compromising what you really want and need because fear is keeping you from being honest.  
 

My advice would be to give the MM space.  Work on yourself.  Seek out a therapist and spend time digging deep within to find out why you are conflict avoidant, why you think this man truly loves you more than he loves his wife, why you decided to create embryos with this man.  Try to find your core beliefs and what it will take to make you happy.  You may find out that MM doesn't make you as happy as you think he does.  Good luck. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by EleanorRigby2000

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

No just thinking out loud and... obviously need to be relatively cryptic on a very vulnerable topic

It's rather straight forward. You're involved with a married man who won't divorce his wife and you want to get married. The only complication is having an embryo together.

So the cryptic or rather, theatrical, writing style doesn't protect information, it just makes it unrelatable because it's laced with so many platitudes, theoretical debates and arrogance.

Of course you want to feel special. Mistresses who want more often do because the relationship in itself lacks so much.

There's not much advice to offer because you wish to stay in this arrangement and he wishes to stay married to his wife.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Wiseman2

[elaine567]

15 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

There's not much advice to offer because you wish to stay in this arrangement and he wishes to stay married to his wife.

In a nutshell.
The embryo's, the fact his wife may or may not give her approval and permission, the family involvement, the daily time invested... all pale into insignificance to reveal the age old problem.
The OW wants "more" and wishes to turn an affair into a marriage and a family.
The MM is happy juggling two women and wants to keep both if he can for as long as possible.
OWs tend to get so hung up on "love", but a guy who slinks home to his wife every night is not thinking of "love" for either woman.
He is thinking of himself.

Edited October 30, 2021 by elaine567

[elaine567]

It is also about a fundamental lack of respect for both women.

[TamBuktu]

Allright fine must have been me

1) not making it abundantly clear that the devil is in the details and the generics are hammered over and over here and elsewhere

2) that even if it is a typical relationship or whatever ones like to call it that's not the point and therefore the insights request for details

3) nobody shared personal experience good bad ugly whatever

And if it wasn't clear here it is: this wording is for solely the forum reasons nobody uses affair, AP, MM, BM whatever language in real life nor think of it this way or I don't if someone else do great for them. It is called partners, relationship, development of relationship. The "BW" has never been mentioned as such hell this person is never ever a subject of a conversation in the "affair couple" but as you wish to believe, so be it

 

And yeah, details + personal experience would have been great but in any case thank you thank you.

[stillafool]

12 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

And what makes you think that? And if so why she stayed?

It's a pattern for him to stay out late.  Lot's of business men come home late from work and their wives are used to it.  Since this is his pattern he could very easily have affairs on the side and she would never suspect him because coming home late is what she's used to from him.  She stays because she has no idea and doesn't suspect him of doing wrong, he provides everything she wants and needs so she's happily living with her head in the clouds.  He has his little affairs and comes home to his happy wife.  This guy has got it made.

[RebeccaR]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Allright fine must have been me

1) not making it abundantly clear that the devil is in the details and the generics are hammered over and over here and elsewhere

2) that even if it is a typical relationship or whatever ones like to call it that's not the point and therefore the insights request for details

3) nobody shared personal experience good bad ugly whatever

And if it wasn't clear here it is: this wording is for solely the forum reasons nobody uses affair, AP, MM, BM whatever language in real life nor think of it this way or I don't if someone else do great for them. It is called partners, relationship, development of relationship. The "BW" has never been mentioned as such hell this person is never ever a subject of a conversation in the "affair couple" but as you wish to believe, so be it

 

And yeah, details + personal experience would have been great but in any case thank you thank you.

What can others’ personal experience do to answer your question? I went back and read that you (both?) want children right now but he’s not willing to initiate divorce. He doesn’t respond to pressure from you to get divorced. We can’t tell you the magic words that will make him leave his marriage. I agree with everyone else who says he is happy being in two relationships. Does he really want kids with you right now as you initially posted? Does he want you to be a single mom? Somethings’s not adding up.