It's complicated - insight needed

[RebeccaR]

52 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

Onto keep doing what we've been doing. It has been an amazing weekend. I dropped the ball on the conversations to recharge but I still wasn't expecting things to go that good. Like it keeps me wondering for bad things lol. Is he that excited that I'm fighting for him?! Scared of my actions if I am not happy ?! Generally unaffected of our conversations ?! Or something else. Like he got a second wind...

Maybe he’s relieved that you dropped  the conversation around divorce, remarriage, and kids for now? 

[TamBuktu]

24 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Maybe he’s relieved that you dropped  the conversation around divorce, remarriage, and kids for now? 

I made it very clear it’s not dropped though just on hold so we can recharge/rest

[RebeccaR]

9 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

just on hold so we can recharge/rest

Why is this necessary (or productive) when you’ve barely discussed anything?

[TamBuktu]

9 minutes ago, RebeccaR said:

Why is this necessary (or productive) when you’ve barely discussed anything?

In my opinion for few reasons. To collect my thoughts, give him time to do the same, take off the perceived pressure and also not to forget what actually connected us. It’s not just goal seeking, first and foremost the connection and spark need to be preserved, otherwise what’s the point ti be together?

[Allupinnit]

14 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

In my opinion for few reasons. To collect my thoughts, give him time to do the same, take off the perceived pressure and also not to forget what actually connected us. It’s not just goal seeking, first and foremost the connection and spark need to be preserved, otherwise what’s the point ti be together?

So you don't want to pressure him directly to his face, just investigate and scheme behind his back to concoct the best play to get him to do what you want?  Does that sound like love to you?

As to the bolded, you're hoping for this because you know that people are more vulnerable in emotionally charged situations.  

You keep lying to yourself, thinking that if he has *just* enough fun and connection with you, it will be a no-brainer for him to leave his old, boring wife.  Look around, girl, you aren't the first mistress to hope for the whole cake when you've gotten crumbs - it's a tale as old as time.  

[TamBuktu]

2 minutes ago, Allupinnit said:

So you don't want to pressure him directly to his face, just investigate and scheme behind his back to concoct the best play to get him to do what you want?  Does that sound like love to you?

As to the bolded, you're hoping for this because you know that people are more vulnerable in emotionally charged situations.  

You keep lying to yourself, thinking that if he has *just* enough fun and connection with you, it will be a no-brainer for him to leave his old, boring wife.  Look around, girl, you aren't the first mistress to hope for the whole cake when you've gotten crumbs - it's a tale as old as time.  

The investigation I’m doing has nothing to do with me pressuring anything- it’s for me to figure out if the fight is worth fighting so to speak.

I think you’re reading too much in my “plot”. If I wanted him emotionally charged, I’d had been on that wave

[elaine567]

3 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

. It has been an amazing weekend. I dropped the ball on the conversations to recharge but I still wasn't expecting things to go that good. Like it keeps me wondering for bad things lol. Is he that excited that I'm fighting for him?! Scared of my actions if I am not happy ?! Generally unaffected of our conversations ?! Or something else. Like he got a second wind...

 I guess just another variation of the deflect and distract theme.
It is just a pity he wasn't more excited when you were discussing moving forward as opposed to when you put the topic on hold for a few days.
He got let off the hook and was showing you just how great life would be without all the heavy stuff...
"Forget all that serious talking, look how much fun we can have just the two of us...  Don't spoil it..."

 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

The investigation I’m doing has nothing to do with me pressuring anything- it’s for me to figure out if the fight is worth fighting so to speak.

I think you’re reading too much in my “plot”. If I wanted him emotionally charged, I’d had been on that wave

See if the two of you were as close as you say you'd have no problem sitting him down and asking these questions.  Instead you have to do an investigation.  It's sad.

[stillafool]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:22 AM, TamBuktu said:

I sometimes wonder how his current wife is ok with his bachelor lifestyle. Forget about my relationship with him, before then he was out every single night too. And if we turn the clock 10 years ago- he had a whole day out hanging out crew (her not included) and clubbing crew for the nights (her not included). I’m just curious how can she be ok with that?

 

On 11/20/2021 at 8:48 AM, TamBuktu said:

I am NOT looking for clues why he is not committed to her - that's obvious. I'm just trying to understand what has kept her / drawn her to a "relationship" like this. It's the only reason I asked the question. I feel like I'm overlooking something because I can't relate due to age difference (she's older than my parents), culture (she's from a different one than me and him as well). mindset of a divorcee (she was freshly divorced) etc.. I'm trying to figure out the reason and the pattern.

 

On 11/20/2021 at 11:34 AM, TamBuktu said:

All I was saying there is no communication, no togetherness, no intimacy, no future plans in their “relationship “. She’s on her way to retire, there is nothing to long for besides upcoming illnesses and pains.

 

Honestly your obsession with his wife must keep you awake at night.  You just can't get her out of your mind.  Does MM know how jealous you are of his wife?

[stillafool]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

"Forget all that serious talking, look how much fun we can have just the two of us...  Don't spoil it..."

Absolutely that is what an affair is for - fun.  Not the serious stuff, he has that at home.  This is why some OW get traded in for new because they start getting serious.

[czanclus]

On 10/29/2021 at 6:42 AM, TamBuktu said:

The Couple: together for about 3 years.
He: married for 10 years, no kids.
She: never married, no kids.
Both: spend time every day together, from finishing work to bedtime.
Both He and She has met the other's families.
Both families approving besides his "problem".
Wife doesn't care, no questions asked as long as he goes home at night.
Both She and Wife aware of each other but no questions asked.

Issue: He isn't initiating a divorce, He never terminated a relationship in his life.
Both want kids right now, She can't do it before his divorce and tying the knot together. 
Otherwise both are happy and content.

Any ideas? Not looking for moral police please.
Any insight will be helpful. People in similar situations please share how it worked out.
Willing to add details if they'll be helpful.
 

This guy needs an ultimatum. That, or you're in for a looonnng wait.

A *soft* ultimatum. OK, hear me out, it only sounds like an oxymoron from the first pass. You, in no uncertain terms, with a healthy serving of kindness and respect, tell him that you want to be married exclusively to him, and to make the embryos into babies, at least of the count of one - or else, you will find someone else to marry and make babies with. You set out a timeline, and you make yourself available to help with any and all steps in ways that make sense for you to interfere. As he starts to deviate from the steps, track his behavior, and consult the LS mindhive again. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility, language

[czanclus]

Similar situation... this is is my personal situation from what seems like a lifetime ago. Loved a man who was 7 years younger than I, when I was 26 years old, incidentally also dated him at the time. Wanted to have it all with him. Was his first (and for almost two decades thereafter only) girlfriend. But he was just a barely adult college graduate. Told me he didn't want any kids until at least his early 30s. I wasn't his ideal choice for a girlfriend either, he just couldn't get anyone more to his preference, so went with me. 

I told him "OK, you'll be the sperm donor then, I don't want to wait till I'm in my late 30s for the first baby. Beyond that, you owe me nothing." He was shocked I put an unborn abstract of a child before him, supposedly he 'loved' me. Meh. Unpacking that relationship would take pages. Never felt about anyone the same before or after, but it was never meant to be. Anyway, he accepted the proposition. We were gonna go, two kids in the various advancements of their 20s, in the decade of the mid 2000s, to a fertility clinic to make some frozen embryos. Appointment scheduled, we showed up, went to respective rooms, and everything. Shortly, minds got changed, mostly mine, at least for the time being that time. There was going to be a better time. A year of tumultuous changes ensued. Pages could be written about how's and why's, but not in this medium. We never got back together again. I briefly dated someone else about a year after that, and very early on got pregnant with his child. My one and only child, now a teenager.

I always knew that to me a child mattered more than the man. I in fact, never even pictured myself in a union with a man while raising this (single) child. He was to be a nice bonus, or none at all. My child could have been the first man's and I would have loved it just the same, but it ended up being someone else's, and it came out perfect in every way. I never married that man - the child's father - either, who in fact did propose to me. I never married anyone thereafter, nor did it ever matter to me. Be very clear with yourself and with the man who apparently matters in husband form, what matters to you and how much it matters. Good luck.

[anika99]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:26 AM, TamBuktu said:

The reason it appears contradicting is because that's exactly how he is. He's not the typical "party guy" and also not the typical introvert. In a nutshell if he is out with friends at night - he will never drink, but he will pretend to do so so he can immerse in the company. Then his friends will start conversations and he'd just guide into some scandalous topic and enjoy people watching. It's literally how he describes it. He only goes out for people watching.

The more you tell us about this guy the more manipulative and creepy he sounds. Like why does he need to pretend to drink? I don't drink, I go to parties and when someone offers me an alcoholic drink I politely decline but that does not prevent me from enjoying the party or getting into great conversations with those you are partaking in alcoholic beverages. I have never felt like I needed to pretend to drink to enjoy myself or for the people around me to enjoy themselves, my lack of alcohol intake is just a total non-issue. It seems your MM is never really authentic, he goes through life acting and saying whatever he thinks people want to see and hear. Either because he is a weak pathetic man or because he is a manipulator who uses people for his own gain. Neither of those possibilities make him a catch, barf. 

Being a lifelong introvert myself I can tell you that introverts can enjoy parties, an we can actually even be quite lively at parties, lol, it's just that by the end of a party we feel totally drained and like we need several hours to ourselves to recharge. 

 I have an aunt who married a man 15 yrs her junior. When they met she was 45 and he was 30 and clearly smitten with her. She had some concerns because her children were grown and she knew she wouldn't be having more so she checked with him time and time again that he was certain and he assured her that he didn't want kids, that even if they broke up he would only date women who didn't want kids or who had already had kids. They married 30 yrs ago and they are still happily married but had he decided 10yrs into the marriage that he made a mistake and actually did want children that would have been all on him, not her. He was an adult man, all she could do was trust that he was being honest when he said he didn't children and because he was a man, not a weak child, he was honest and that's why they are still enjoying their childfree life together today. She is 75 now and he is 60, she looks young for her age and he looks a little older for his age so the age gap is not obvious. 

One thing that has been become clear in this thread is that it doesn't matter what we say because you will always shift gears, move the goal posts, deflect or outright contradict yourself. You keep harping on his wife being so much older than him so someone points out that the age gap is similar between you and your MM so you come back with "oh it's not the age gap, it's their lack of communication" yet if there is one thing you have made abundantly clear in this thread its' that your MM doesn't communicate with you either. Not when it comes to the things that count. You think she took advantage of him because she took away his ability to have his own kids but your MM has happily engaged in this affair with you for the past 3yrs knowing that you want to have kids some day and to be married, and it's pretty clear that he would happily keep this up for the next 10yrs if you allow it so what makes him any better than his wife. He is also keeping you from having children. Oh wait, are you going  to tell me that he's not  cruelly preventing you from having children because you are an adult making her own decisions? Just like he was adult making his own decisions when he married his wife? 

 

[IrinaM]

Right I was thinking the same thing @anika99

Tam - I think you keep bringing up the wife's age because, let's face it, a woman who is twenty years younger is likely much prettier. So maybe you think that makes choosing you a certainty.

Here's the thing, if he is married to someone who is older then he probably doesn't value looks. So it won't matter to him. The qualities you have are qualities he values in a mistress, the qualities she has are what he values in a wife.

You could, hypothetically, take stock of your positive qualities and find someone who desires to have your qualities in a wife he comes to. Then have a baby with that dude.

[BaileyB]

4 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

In my opinion for few reasons. To collect my thoughts, give him time to do the same, take off the perceived pressure and also not to forget what actually connected us. It’s not just goal seeking, first and foremost the connection and spark need to be preserved, otherwise what’s the point ti be together?

My friend, if you have to work this hard it’s just not meant to be… You shouldn’t have to convince the man to be in a legitimate relationship with you. Either he wants this and he will make it happen, or he won’t. And no amount of time, communication, planning, or scheming will change it…

Edited November 23, 2021 by BaileyB

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

- it’s for me to figure out if the fight is worth fighting 

Can't you just ask him?  What fight? 

"Do you live with your wife"? is a pretty simple question. Is that what you think you need a detective crew to figure out? 

Who cares? It still doesn't change your situation as far as your age, his age, the fact that he's married, etc.

All you need to know is if being a mistress is the best path for you vs having a husband and family with an available honest man.

Perhaps being a mistress is a phase, especially with all the mystery, riddles, circular talk, avoiding reality, etc.

Like an interesting book. Maybe you'll finish reading it, then pursue a real life of your own that you build with someone.

Is it possible he's not even married, just tells you that to avoid complications with you? Maybe she's just another mistress.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Wiseman2

[ExpatInItaly]

3 hours ago, BaileyB said:

My friend, if you have to work this hard it’s just not meant to be… 

My thoughts exactly. 

This is an exhausting way to relate to someone, and simply points to how close the couple is really not. 

[stillafool]

9 hours ago, IrinaM said:

Here's the thing, if he is married to someone who is older then he probably doesn't value looks.

Tam has stated before in this thread that the wife is still beautiful.

[TamBuktu]

14 hours ago, elaine567 said:

 I guess just another variation of the deflect and distract theme.
It is just a pity he wasn't more excited when you were discussing moving forward as opposed to when you put the topic on hold for a few days.
He got let off the hook and was showing you just how great life would be without all the heavy stuff...
"Forget all that serious talking, look how much fun we can have just the two of us...  Don't spoil it..."

 

I get it thought, one is easy, the other is complicated.. We can talk both fun and serious over the Thanksgiving dinner, I am thinking it might be an appropriate moment to just regroup.

[TamBuktu]

14 hours ago, stillafool said:

 

 

Honestly your obsession with his wife must keep you awake at night.  You just can't get her out of your mind.  Does MM know how jealous you are of his wife?

LMAO of course he knows spying is one of our shared hobbies.. By "spying" in mean reading people and situations, this was one of the first things we bonded over

 

But let's forget about her point of view and also mine. From HIS end:

1) he invested years in our relationship  - both his time and efforts
2) it wasn't fun and games - he has been weirdly invested with my family, helped me a ton with house reno etc
3) he goes above and beyond to spend time together, even when I am beyond moody

If it was few months and sexual in nature - I get it. But we are talking years and years.. Can't be just food, sex and affection, right?
 

[TamBuktu]

13 hours ago, czanclus said:

This guy needs an ultimatum. That, or you're in for a looonnng wait.

A *soft* ultimatum. OK, hear me out, it only sounds like an oxymoron from the first pass. You, in no uncertain terms, with a healthy serving of kindness and respect, tell him that you want to be married exclusively to him, and to make the embryos into babies, at least of the count of one - or else, you will find someone else to marry and make babies with. You set out a timeline, and you make yourself available to help with any and all steps in ways that make sense for you to interfere. As he starts to deviate from the steps, track his behavior, and consult the LS mindhive again. 

That's sort of what I did, without the timeline or explicit marriage talk.

You said he matters in a husband form - to me that's only in conjunction of having kids and not in a million years I'll be the one to suggest to get married, that's on him. I see your point, I just don't see myself having kids unmarried not that much for myself, more so for the kids and the stable environment that he can give them (emotionally stable I mean). Otherwise I couldn't care less about rings and weddings.

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

LMAO of course he knows spying is one of our shared hobbies.. By "spying" in mean reading people and situations, this was one of the first things we bonded over

 

But let's forget about her point of view and also mine. From HIS end:

1) he invested years in our relationship  - both his time and efforts
2) it wasn't fun and games - he has been weirdly invested with my family, helped me a ton with house reno etc
3) he goes above and beyond to spend time together, even when I am beyond moody

If it was few months and sexual in nature - I get it. But we are talking years and years.. Can't be just food, sex and affection, right?
 

 Spying on his wife is definitely your hobby.  He doesn't have to spy on her he already knows what's going on.  He has invested more years in his marriage and her than you.  

 

You never answered as to why when he leaves your house to do "hobbies"  he doesn't come back to spend the night with you rather than go home to her.  Why?

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, anika99 said:

The more you tell us about this guy the more manipulative and creepy he sounds. Like why does he need to pretend to drink? I don't drink, I go to parties and when someone offers me an alcoholic drink I politely decline but that does not prevent me from enjoying the party or getting into great conversations with those you are partaking in alcoholic beverages. I have never felt like I needed to pretend to drink to enjoy myself or for the people around me to enjoy themselves, my lack of alcohol intake is just a total non-issue. It seems your MM is never really authentic, he goes through life acting and saying whatever he thinks people want to see and hear. Either because he is a weak pathetic man or because he is a manipulator who uses people for his own gain. Neither of those possibilities make him a catch, barf. 

Being a lifelong introvert myself I can tell you that introverts can enjoy parties, an we can actually even be quite lively at parties, lol, it's just that by the end of a party we feel totally drained and like we need several hours to ourselves to recharge. 

 I have an aunt who married a man 15 yrs her junior. When they met she was 45 and he was 30 and clearly smitten with her. She had some concerns because her children were grown and she knew she wouldn't be having more so she checked with him time and time again that he was certain and he assured her that he didn't want kids, that even if they broke up he would only date women who didn't want kids or who had already had kids. They married 30 yrs ago and they are still happily married but had he decided 10yrs into the marriage that he made a mistake and actually did want children that would have been all on him, not her. He was an adult man, all she could do was trust that he was being honest when he said he didn't children and because he was a man, not a weak child, he was honest and that's why they are still enjoying their childfree life together today. She is 75 now and he is 60, she looks young for her age and he looks a little older for his age so the age gap is not obvious. 

One thing that has been become clear in this thread is that it doesn't matter what we say because you will always shift gears, move the goal posts, deflect or outright contradict yourself. You keep harping on his wife being so much older than him so someone points out that the age gap is similar between you and your MM so you come back with "oh it's not the age gap, it's their lack of communication" yet if there is one thing you have made abundantly clear in this thread its' that your MM doesn't communicate with you either. Not when it comes to the things that count. You think she took advantage of him because she took away his ability to have his own kids but your MM has happily engaged in this affair with you for the past 3yrs knowing that you want to have kids some day and to be married, and it's pretty clear that he would happily keep this up for the next 10yrs if you allow it so what makes him any better than his wife. He is also keeping you from having children. Oh wait, are you going  to tell me that he's not  cruelly preventing you from having children because you are an adult making her own decisions? Just like he was adult making his own decisions when he married his wife? 

 

Of course I shift gears - the whole point of writing is collecting my thoughts, these are not facts set in stone. What I am writing is what I think at the moment of writing and it can change later in the thread or later in life (one example is I said I'll never use donor gametes - that's conditional on the ability to use mine - obviously I'll adapt if the circumstances change, all I can do is secure something to be in the 90% percentile)

He's "creepy" so am I.. I feel like we bonded over our unusual perception of life. I also don't drink but when people know they get a bit guarded in social settings and he's just avoiding that. But we have other weird hobbies and habits.. 

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, IrinaM said:

Right I was thinking the same thing @anika99

Tam - I think you keep bringing up the wife's age because, let's face it, a woman who is twenty years younger is likely much prettier. So maybe you think that makes choosing you a certainty.

Here's the thing, if he is married to someone who is older then he probably doesn't value looks. So it won't matter to him. The qualities you have are qualities he values in a mistress, the qualities she has are what he values in a wife.

You could, hypothetically, take stock of your positive qualities and find someone who desires to have your qualities in a wife he comes to. Then have a baby with that dude.

She's 30 years older than me but definitely spends more time in front of the mirror, as well as trying to catch men attention. It's actually quite funny to me. She's good looking but why on earth a woman her age will get hot for "likes" on social media lol. I generally avoid leading with my looks, for whatever reason I still feel "prudish" I know my relationship doesn't support this lol but that's how I feel. So I doubt he ran after me for looks, I just never made it a centerpiece of my "presentation" to him or to the world.

 

What qualities you think he values in a "mistress" vs "wife"?

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, BaileyB said:

My friend, if you have to work this hard it’s just not meant to be… You shouldn’t have to convince the man to be in a legitimate relationship with you. Either he wants this and he will make it happen, or he won’t. And no amount of time, communication, planning, or scheming will change it…

That's very true, ball is in his court. All I need to do is show him I want this with him because the more I think, I never made a point of it over the years.