It's complicated - insight needed

[LynneVicious]

Tam, this is so confusing and convoluted. For 3 years no, only getting little pieces of the puzzle here and there. I cant possibly see how this is fulfilling to you. And how the pros outweigh the cons. Would hate to see you wasting your child rearing years on so much uncertainty. 

[ufo8mycat]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

That’s why I’m thinking BW is aware if everything and that doesn’t violate their agreement, whatever it is, whereas divorce proceedings will turn this all upside down 

I am curious as to your evidence of this? You mentioned earlier that you assumed she knew what was going on. What makes you say this? I had previously understood this to be a relatively “out” partnership between you and you MM. 

is it possible she is also trusting and has no idea? 
 

meeting someone’s family in passing isn’t the same as being introduced as their girlfriend or partner. From you OP you mentioned you had met his family. Did he introduce you as his girlfriend.

I think it’s a really smart thing, to challenge assumptions and work only on what you know to be the case. 

[anika99]

9 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

It's never an overt lie. The way he does it he'd never say the lie himself - the other person would fill the gap and create the lie if that makes any sense.

It actually makes perfect sense and I think you have fallen into this very scenario. He makes vague references to his marriage and the state of his marriage and you create the fantasy/lies around the tiny little crumbs of info he gives you. He's not lying to you, he's just helping you lie to yourself. 

[anika99]

10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

It's hard to believe that he is supposedly a scientist with several degrees (or is that a lie too?) and his wife will beat him up, take a hit out on him or blackmail him?

That is the best married man excuse yet: "My wife will blackmail me and there will be violence".

Yet he's at your place every holiday. And she knows nothing about his whereabouts? But will have him killed if he tries to divorce? 

 Is it possible he has a psychotic disorder? The odd language, the paranoid delusions, etc.?

LOL, most MM have the built in excuse of kids. Like "I can't leavemy wife because I couldn't bear to leave my kids" or "I can't leave my wife because she will take my kids to the opposite side of the earth and never let me see them again"  Even if their kids are grown adults the cheating MM still uses them as a reason for not leaving, saying things along the lines of "I can't leave because then my adult 30yr old son will never speak to me again and I won't see my grandchildren"  Using the kids is brilliant because then the OW has no choice but to accept her mistress role, otherwise she just look cruel and heartless and that she doesn't even care about the wellbeing of her MM's children. 

However the MM who don't have kids have to get really creative with their reasons for not leaving. Usually they fall back on "my wife will be devastated she will kill herself". They don't usually resort to saying their wife will kill them but this isn't the first time i've seen this story used. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[ExpatInItaly]

10 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

If we want to be accurate- he’s choosing me as well, he makes this choice daily 

I meant who he chooses to be married to. 

And that is not you. 

[Ha-ha]

1 hour ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I meant who he chooses to be married to. 

And that is not you. 

And he chooses to put you as the side piece. I hope that sinks in:  he CHOOSES daily to be married to her and keep you on the side. 

[ufo8mycat]

12 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Isn’t that exactly what love is? What’s left when everything else goes out the window? I’m in a safe situation, and sane enough to make decisions;) The rest is semantics…

Anyway, let see what the long weekend will bring. It will be telling:)

 

I am a couple of years older than you Tam and I have been in a marriage that didn't work out. So I know how hard it is to walk away from legacy. 

 

The rest really isn't semantics. What is love? It is highly individual, but do you really feel safe? that you have an open, transparent relationships? This is pretty critical to safety. 

For me, and I had some time to think about this love is always conditional. For it to be unconditional it means we have no boundaries and that is not healthy. I am not longer in a place where I wait for others to articulate what they want - I know what I want. This doesn't mean this is unkind or disrespectful. 

But I get the impression you want a family, you want commitment and you want transparency. 

Is this getting this closer to what you what? 

I am worried that you see difficult conversations and asserting what you want as being demanding, ultimatums or inviting conflict. What you want IS important. It is simply the most important thing - no one else will advocate for what is important to you. Asking for transparency, for what you need is having healthy boundaries, its valuing your self and that your needs are important. 

 

Are you OK to be in this same place in three years time? What is that going to cost you? 

 

ETA: This is also a guy that doesn't trust you. Where there is trust people don't talk in riddles, circles and double speak. Where there is trust, people are honest, forthcoming and care about your sense of security. 

This guy really doesn't. He is happy with the smoke, mirrors and double speak. 

 

Are you OK with this being the definition of a loving relationship - know that he isn't actually going to change. Why would he? He hasn't changed for you so far. He hasn't been up front; honest or reassuring. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by ufo8mycat

[IrinaM]

15 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

We are spending it together, thank God. Like every other major holiday, like Christmas, Valentines, our birthdays etc. If he was spending it elsewhere, I might have called it quits long time ago. I actually think it's a good occasion for heart to heart talk...

Tam, when he spends all these major holidays with you, does he go home later in the evening, like you said he always does, with some vague excuse about how he has to walk a dog or return a redbox? or does he spend the night on major holidays?

I'm also confused as to how you can't figure out his marital status. You claim you develop novel medical devices, you talk about research and confirming your hypothesis, surely you can figure out how to track down public records regarding marriage or divorce. it might take you some googling, or making a few phone calls, but surely you could find out in a few days max. Given your research credentials, you should have this done already.

Edited November 25, 2021 by IrinaM
add last part

[ufo8mycat]

13 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

It matters to me.

If we want to be accurate- he’s choosing me as well, he makes this choice daily 

I hope you have an interrupted long weekend together, 

 

Please let us know how it goes. I am assuming he is spending the whole thing with you? Not having to head out somewhere, do hobbies, see a man about a dog etc? No hours of disappearing. 

 

You deserve someone who gives you their full attention. 

[TamBuktu]

13 hours ago, stillafool said:

That makes no sense whatsover and I don't believe it.   She doesn't care where he puts his penis but he'd better not divorce her or he'll get killed?  That's almost laughable.  You said she's never around so I doubt she gives a flying egg where he goes.

Nowhere around doesn't make for a "loving wife" does it? She probably has someone else too, in that case even if she cares she won't say anything.. You know, the house is his, not hers..

But let's assume she just doesn't give a flying egg where he goes? Daily. For years. All the time. What kind of relationship is that?! And in that case why shall I feel guilty interfering?! Just things to think about

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Indeed, he is choosing both his wife and you. If this is acceptable for you, continue as you have been. If not, you will at some point need to accept the reality of this situation and make a different decision for yourself.

Yeah, we might need to incorporate her in our future lives in some form. Up to her of course, but maybe there is a middle ground and I am (sort of) open to it, as long as everyone is happy..

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, LynneVicious said:

Tam, this is so confusing and convoluted. For 3 years no, only getting little pieces of the puzzle here and there. I cant possibly see how this is fulfilling to you. And how the pros outweigh the cons. Would hate to see you wasting your child rearing years on so much uncertainty. 

It sounds confusing because I only focus on the small part that he doesn't share with me. Otherwise we share everything about work, family, whereabouts etc. It's so much more that I discuss because I'm satisfied with, I only share the "pain point" and it makes everything look worse than it is.

The childrearing problem is huge though, I'll need to take charge on it and won't be long...

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, ufo8mycat said:

ETA: This is also a guy that doesn't trust you. Where there is trust people don't talk in riddles, circles and double speak. Where there is trust, people are honest, forthcoming and care about your sense of security. 

This guy really doesn't. He is happy with the smoke, mirrors and double speak. 

Tam,
Why would he trust you?
You are the woman who knows and who has worked with his wife, but is content to stab her in the back by monopolising and sleeping with her husband.
What kind of a woman does that? He will ask himself.
Maybe he does see you and he as similar, as two of  a kind, but would he want to plan a future with himself? I doubt it.

Edited November 25, 2021 by elaine567

[TamBuktu]

2 hours ago, ufo8mycat said:

I am a couple of years older than you Tam and I have been in a marriage that didn't work out. So I know how hard it is to walk away from legacy. 

 

The rest really isn't semantics. What is love? It is highly individual, but do you really feel safe? that you have an open, transparent relationships? This is pretty critical to safety. 

For me, and I had some time to think about this love is always conditional. For it to be unconditional it means we have no boundaries and that is not healthy. I am not longer in a place where I wait for others to articulate what they want - I know what I want. This doesn't mean this is unkind or disrespectful. 

But I get the impression you want a family, you want commitment and you want transparency. 

Is this getting this closer to what you what? 

I am worried that you see difficult conversations and asserting what you want as being demanding, ultimatums or inviting conflict. What you want IS important. It is simply the most important thing - no one else will advocate for what is important to you. Asking for transparency, for what you need is having healthy boundaries, its valuing your self and that your needs are important. 

 

Are you OK to be in this same place in three years time? What is that going to cost you? 

 

ETA: This is also a guy that doesn't trust you. Where there is trust people don't talk in riddles, circles and double speak. Where there is trust, people are honest, forthcoming and care about your sense of security. 

This guy really doesn't. He is happy with the smoke, mirrors and double speak. 

 

Are you OK with this being the definition of a loving relationship - know that he isn't actually going to change. Why would he? He hasn't changed for you so far. He hasn't been up front; honest or reassuring. 

 

 

 

 

That's a good perspective. I feel safe.. because I feel loved. I don't feel judged. There are no expectations like "i'll love you if you change/do this/do that". This was my entire life experience before him - in relationships, but even with friends, family, coworkers... Maybe I lack boundaries... I have to dig deeper on this.

Yup, him not trusting me is a big issue. It is something I brought up and he claims it's habitual... I also facilitated it pretending I am unaware of the double speak (maybe from a guilt - because the information I had was acquired by my own checks, one can call them stalking lol). I am going to bring this up over and over again. The trust issues. To me that's more important than anything else actually, because only when we achieve complete trust, we can transition from romantic couple to a happy family.

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Tam,
Why would he trust you?
You are the woman who knows and who has worked with his wife, but is content to stab her in the back by monopolising and sleeping with her husband.
What kind of a woman does that? He will ask himself.
Maybe he does see you and he as similar, as two of  a kind, but would he want to plan a future with himself? I doubt it.

But Elaine, I haven't chased. He did all the flirting in the beginning. I trusted his choice that whatever relationship he's at, is dead emotionally. It also moved extremely slow.

I never cheated myself and he knows I'll never do it. If he questions my morals, it's extreme double standard...

[TamBuktu]

11 hours ago, ufo8mycat said:

I am curious as to your evidence of this? You mentioned earlier that you assumed she knew what was going on. What makes you say this? I had previously understood this to be a relatively “out” partnership between you and you MM. 

is it possible she is also trusting and has no idea? 
 

meeting someone’s family in passing isn’t the same as being introduced as their girlfriend or partner. From you OP you mentioned you had met his family. Did he introduce you as his girlfriend.

I think it’s a really smart thing, to challenge assumptions and work only on what you know to be the case. 

I don't even know what he introduced me as - every time he'd be the one walking in first and then they'll just call me by name when I get in. There were some weird moments - like someone in his family saying "we told you we like her (aka me)"  - I'm not sure what this was all about, I never asked

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, IrinaM said:

Tam, when he spends all these major holidays with you, does he go home later in the evening, like you said he always does, with some vague excuse about how he has to walk a dog or return a redbox? or does he spend the night on major holidays?

I'm also confused as to how you can't figure out his marital status. You claim you develop novel medical devices, you talk about research and confirming your hypothesis, surely you can figure out how to track down public records regarding marriage or divorce. it might take you some googling, or making a few phone calls, but surely you could find out in a few days max. Given your research credentials, you should have this done already.

No he doesn't spend the night. Considering we are not in a live-in relationship (and I'm not even sure if I'd like non-marital live-in relationship, especially with all the logistics around properties etc) - what's the big deal? Regardless, I spend more quality time with him that with an ex-live in partner, as a reference. 

Maybe I am street-stupid, I can't track this particular piece of information. I tried many times in the past and nothing.

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, ufo8mycat said:

I hope you have an interrupted long weekend together, 

 

Please let us know how it goes. I am assuming he is spending the whole thing with you? Not having to head out somewhere, do hobbies, see a man about a dog etc? No hours of disappearing. 

 

You deserve someone who gives you their full attention. 

Lol this isn't the plan for this long weekend, hopefully that's soon to come as well. I am vaguely planning something for us going on a getaway where we can talk honestly (which I bet is more terrifying to him than me and the main reason why we haven't done it yet).

But on the bright side - it's Thanksgiving! Happy Thanksgiving to everyone, I think for me will be very fun and informative to observe his behavior, after all this is the first holiday after we had "the talk".

[elaine567]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

never cheated myself and he knows I'll never do it. If he questions my morals, it's extreme double standard...

Of course it is, but that doesn't mean he doesn't think like that unfortunately.
It doesn't matter one jot if you were not the chaser and the affair moved at a snail's pace the result is still the same.

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

what's the big deal?

The big deal is that most couples or people in significant relationships tend to spend "holidays" together, all day and all night, unless there are good reasons not to.
Celebrating together is a bonding experience.
Your guy is again sneaking off "home", and whilst you may be quite content to have the time to yourself, as it is no big deal to you, the bigger picture is a bit troubling. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by elaine567

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Nowhere around doesn't make for a "loving wife" does it? She probably has someone else too, in that case even if she cares she won't say anything.. You know, the house is his, not hers..

But let's assume she just doesn't give a flying egg where he goes? Daily. For years. All the time. What kind of relationship is that?! And in that case why shall I feel guilty interfering?! Just things to think about

Ask MM what kind of relationship is it that he can stay away from home as long as he wants, she's content doing things with other people and she doesn't give a flying egg where he is as long as he's paying her bills.  Ask him what he's getting out of it that makes him cling to it?   According to you she has never been a "loving wife" so why do you care now?  Aren't you trying to fill that position?  Also you said she doesn't even live with him but in one of his properties.  All of this and yet according to you if he files for divorce a family hit squad will come after him.

[RebeccaR]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

And in that case why shall I feel guilty interfering?!

The reason you feel guilty is because he makes you feel guilty. He speaks obliquely, he acts evasive, he makes it clear he can’t be upfront with you. If it was truly over and a marriage in name only, he would tell you that straight out. He feels guilty, You pick up on that, so you feel guilty.

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

Nowhere around doesn't make for a "loving wife" does it? She probably has someone else too, in that case even if she cares she won't say anything.. You know, the house is his, not hers..

But let's assume she just doesn't give a flying egg where he goes? Daily. For years. All the time. What kind of relationship is that?! And in that case why shall I feel guilty interfering?! Just things to think about

Why should his wife hang around the house when according to you he is never home?  Why should she be a loving wife to a man who has a side piece that he spends all of his time with according to you.  He's never home yet somehow you expect her to be a loving wife to him.  It doesn't add up because one would think you'd be happy instead of upset because her not being a loving wife helps you in your effort to steal her husband.  

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

And in that case why shall I feel guilty interfering?! Just things to think about

You do not feel the least bit guilty, but glee at the thought of betraying his wife.  Your jealousy has been pushed to hate for her.

[TamBuktu]

28 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Why should his wife hang around the house when according to you he is never home?  Why should she be a loving wife to a man who has a side piece that he spends all of his time with according to you.  He's never home yet somehow you expect her to be a loving wife to him.  It doesn't add up because one would think you'd be happy instead of upset because her not being a loving wife helps you in your effort to steal her husband.  

It was the same before we started dating.

Also, why should his behavior drive hers? That’s childish.

On your other posts- no, I don’t feel guilty anymore for that very reason. I also don’t hate her, I’m toying with the idea what the future can be if she stays involved in some capacity

And on your questions how she allows that- I’d like to know too, I’ll ask him