It's complicated - insight needed

[TamBuktu]

33 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Would it not be easier for the man to visit a lawyer and file for divorce? 

Seriously. 

Kindly, there is nothing new here except you seem to have confirmed there is no good reason for him to stay in his marriage or delay filing for divorce. He does not stay for fear of physical threat or financial loss and he expressed serious reluctance to have children. How are you closer to your goal? It seems to me that you are further away from sealing the deal than ever. 

For what reason? What will happen in the next four to six months that would enable him to leave his marriage? Aside from, another man entering her life and his elderly and infirm wife making the decision to leave the marriage and pursue another relationship…

I agree, with his personality type I'm sure it's like the biggest fear in his life (direct confrontation). BUT as spelled above
-he confirmed their relationship was toast and hanging on the help of her deceased relative way before we got together
-there is no real threat that will stop us except his paranoia
- we're finally talking openly on the topic (for me that's still hard to believe, after so so long)

The 4-6 months weren't for a specific reason, he was just giving me the maximum time he'd need to sort his stuff.

I agree we are at a make or break point. It had to get worse before getting better... I am going to have another talk soon.. maybe tonight. TO me the ability to do so feels a huge weight off my shoulders. I just need to stay cool, composed and support him. I even asked him is he trying to make me weaker. And his response was" the opposite, I need you stronger for what's ahead of us"... 

[Allupinnit]

I guarantee you there are things you don't know about them.

For so many OW on here it seems cut and dry, your marriage sucks, you love me, what's the holdup?  But as you can see that is rarely the case when you're unraveling decades of building a life with someone.

I would stop with these "talks."  Sure they make YOU feel good but I'm sure he goes home to his wife and feels like crap - the guilt, the pressure, just stop.

Why isn't what he's giving you enough?  You don't want the same things, he's paying you lip service.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Allupinnit

[BaileyB]

Tam, you make it seem like divorce is the most difficult thing - 

If their marriage was truly “toast,” it would be as simple as visiting a lawyer and packing a bag. He could sleep at your home tonight, if he wanted to do so…

26 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

“I need you stronger for what's ahead of us"... 

Please. People divorce every. single. day. For people who are truly done with their marriage, it is a formality. 

 

[Cali Lisa]

It's time for you to talk to his wife. Since she doesn't care, it won't upset her. But it may upset you to find out that she is clueless about your existence, and that her husband has been, in fact, a loving, supportive husband who regularly has sex with his wife. 

You sound to me like one of those people who believe everything they hear, never verify, never snoop, never ask around... I have been accused of being a snoop. I have been called the most disgusting names for being a snoop. I can't tell you how much information I have verified through snooping - last time it was full-blown cheating with a bunch of strangers - and I had no clue! I ended the relationship because of that.

Sorry, I didn't read all the 67 pages of this thread, but I can't get past the fact that he has been married for 10 years to a woman with whom he has no mutual children, she knows about you allegedly, and your love is so ideal. So, there is no problem then? You call his marriage "complication"? The complication is that you can't see that he is a LIAR and a CHEATER. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Cali Lisa

[stillafool]

11 hours ago, TamBuktu said:

I see him every single day because he chooses to come over every single day after finishing work and stays until I'm ready to go to sleep. On the weekends he's here from morning to evening. 

 

He owns the building you live in doesn't he?  He's probably already there anyway in the rental office all day where he works.

[IrinaM]

17 minutes ago, stillafool said:

He owns the building you live in doesn't he?  He's probably already there anyway in the rental office all day where he works.

the facts of this situation change constantly.

 

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

He owns the building you live in doesn't he?  He's probably already there anyway in the rental office all day where he works.

Laughing here how did you even come up with that?
Nope, I own my house and that has nothing to do with him/his workplace. Only reason he’s in the town where I live is to be with me, he doesn’t work nor live there (although he lives relatively close). Hope this made it clear:)

[TamBuktu]

5 hours ago, Cali Lisa said:

It's time for you to talk to his wife. Since she doesn't care, it won't upset her. But it may upset you to find out that she is clueless about your existence, and that her husband has been, in fact, a loving, supportive husband who regularly has sex with his wife. 

You sound to me like one of those people who believe everything they hear, never verify, never snoop, never ask around... I have been accused of being a snoop. I have been called the most disgusting names for being a snoop. I can't tell you how much information I have verified through snooping - last time it was full-blown cheating with a bunch of strangers - and I had no clue! I ended the relationship because of that.

Sorry, I didn't read all the 67 pages of this thread, but I can't get past the fact that he has been married for 10 years to a woman with whom he has no mutual children, she knows about you allegedly, and your love is so ideal. So, there is no problem then? You call his marriage "complication"? The complication is that you can't see that he is a LIAR and a CHEATER. 

Oh trust me I’ve done my fair share of snooping and verifying.

This “loving supportive” husband spends every evening with me by his choice.. I just don’t see it. I’ve spoken to many friends and family of his and they avoid even mentioning her existence, just like he does.
 

He’s just very indecisive and resistant to change+ there is a background story how he got involved with her that partially explains why he overstayed in a dead relationship..

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, Allupinnit said:

I guarantee you there are things you don't know about them.

For so many OW on here it seems cut and dry, your marriage sucks, you love me, what's the holdup?  But as you can see that is rarely the case when you're unraveling decades of building a life with someone.

I would stop with these "talks."  Sure they make YOU feel good but I'm sure he goes home to his wife and feels like crap - the guilt, the pressure, just stop.

Why isn't what he's giving you enough?  You don't want the same things, he's paying you lip service.

Well if he feels like crap might be a good thing. HE chose to be with me, now he needs to face the reality how his indecisiveness to leave his dead relationship makes me feel.

I want to have children with him, and build a life together. Day to day all is good but that’s the goal.

[TamBuktu]

12 hours ago, BaileyB said:

Tam, you make it seem like divorce is the most difficult thing - 

If their marriage was truly “toast,” it would be as simple as visiting a lawyer and packing a bag. He could sleep at your home tonight, if he wanted to do so…

Please. People divorce every. single. day. For people who are truly done with their marriage, it is a formality. 

 

Bailey they call divorce the second hardest thing after death. Yes it happens every day but it is emotionally (and in other ways) very hard even when a relationship is fully over.

I asked him what’s SHE getting out of it (considering how detached he is) and he said money and security. There are no small motivators for someone on the brink of retirement. Even if it’s fully over for him, she’s having her security blanket and might not be that enthusiastic to leave.

He could have stayed I’ve if he wanted to. But he doesn’t want her to know where he’s going. I think that’s understandable.. it can serve against us in court.

[ufo8mycat]

4 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

now he needs to face the reality how his indecisiveness to leave his dead relationship makes me feel.

So how is this happening?

 

what has changed? 
 

he knows how it makes you feel and he remains avoidant and indecisive.

 

he know how you feel and it makes no difference to his behaviour.

 

why do you excuse he totally rubbish avoidant behaviour. This is literally a man child who accepts being a passenger in his own life and blames other people. 
 

why do you think he is going to get the balls to leave? 
 

if you are happy with the crumbs then that is totally fine. I say this with no judgement, if this works for you that is all that matters. But if you think he is only avoidant with his wife you are mistaken.

what is going to change in six months? 

[ufo8mycat]

Just now, TamBuktu said:

Bailey they call divorce the second hardest thing after death. Yes it happens every day but it is emotionally (and in other ways) very hard even when a relationship is fully over.

Honey, I got divorced in the same two years both my parents died and then I had an accident when I was hit by a car. 
 

I am divorced.

 

you hold him to such a low standard he can never dissapoint you, if you are ok with that, everyone will be too. But know you are accepting less than you deserve. 

[TamBuktu]

3 minutes ago, ufo8mycat said:

So how is this happening?

 

what has changed? 
 

he knows how it makes you feel and he remains avoidant and indecisive.

 

he know how you feel and it makes no difference to his behaviour.

 

why do you excuse he totally rubbish avoidant behaviour. This is literally a man child who accepts being a passenger in his own life and blames other people. 
 

why do you think he is going to get the balls to leave? 
 

if you are happy with the crumbs then that is totally fine. I say this with no judgement, if this works for you that is all that matters. But if you think he is only avoidant with his wife you are mistaken.

what is going to change in six months? 

You have a point. For me though being able to talk about things made a huge difference. He can’t use the “I didn’t know line”. He didn’t leave because of the pressure (like many men do even in “regular” relationships). We already have concrete discussions about important things. And I know this sounds absurd but- he said it’s fine if I help him with the process (involve lawyers etc from my end)… seems like it will be all on me in the end but whatever.

[ufo8mycat]

7 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

And I know this sounds absurd but- he said it’s fine if I help him with the process (involve lawyers etc from my end)… seems like it will be all on me in the end but whatever.

It doesn’t sound absurd at all. You are stepping into the same parent role as his current wife by taking on his life administration. This isn’t a sign of trust or a compliment. It’s a sign he doesn’t deal with this own life or dirty work. 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Oh trust me I’ve done my fair share of snooping and verifying.

This “loving supportive” husband spends every evening with me by his choice.. I just don’t see it. I’ve spoken to many friends and family of his and they avoid even mentioning her existence, just like he does.
 

He’s just very indecisive and resistant to change+ there is a background story how he got involved with her that partially explains why he overstayed in a dead relationship..

Okay so what are you worrying about her for?  Everything sounds peachy keen in your affair world.  Why even mention her?

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Bailey they call divorce the second hardest thing after death. Yes it happens every day but it is emotionally (and in other ways) very hard even when a relationship is fully over.

He doesn’t even have to offer excuses, you do it for him.

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

I want to have children with him, and build a life together. Day to day all is good but that’s the goal.

He’s told you that he doesn’t want to be a 70 year old man attending graduation with a walker. And, there is absolutely no good reason why he needs four to six months to leave his marriage. Ignore these things if you will, it entirely your decision…

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, TamBuktu said:

Bailey they call divorce the second hardest thing after death. Yes it happens every day but it is emotionally (and in other ways) very hard even when a relationship is fully over.

I've been through it and it isn't that hard when you're the one  ready to leave.  As a matter of fact it is a relief and you are looking forward to your new life.  It may be sadder for people who have kids together.  If your MM is miserable with his wife, no children with her, was in love wth you, he'd be with you by now.  He hasn't even told her about you and she has no clue you even exist.  She's thinking about eye contact from him and marriage counseling for goodness sake, preserving her marriage and you notice he didn't correct her on any of it.  Why?  Because if she insists he will march down to a marriage counselor to keep her.  He isn't going anywhere but back home to his wife.  I have a feeling the more you talk about him divorcing, (now that you've finally said something), you will feel him starting to pull away.  Just wait and you'll see.  There is another OW on this board who was so sure her MM loved her until she pushed to hard and he ended it even though he had been promising to divorce his wife.

Edited January 7, 2022 by stillafool

[Crazelnut]

So basically he confirmed everything we've been saying (the threats are BS, his money is secure, and the wife doesn't know about you), he confirmed that he won't be leaving (waiting for HER to make a move but she is clearly invested in the marriage and won't do it), and stated he really doesn't want a child.

Are you going to continue your affair with him, knowing all this?

[TamBuktu]

1 hour ago, ufo8mycat said:

It doesn’t sound absurd at all. You are stepping into the same parent role as his current wife by taking on his life administration. This isn’t a sign of trust or a compliment. It’s a sign he doesn’t deal with this own life or dirty work. 

Well that's true. He has always been like this in other aspects of his life too... I accepted it as a part of the package, not that I'm keep about it.

So far I wanted to avoid the parent role because I thought it is disrespectful, but seems like he doesn't mind/expect it... In that case I don't feel guilty stepping in.

[TamBuktu]

29 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

He doesn’t even have to offer excuses, you do it for him.

He’s told you that he doesn’t want to be a 70 year old man attending graduation with a walker. And, there is absolutely no good reason why he needs four to six months to leave his marriage. Ignore these things if you will, it entirely your decision…

We spoke again about the kids decision and he is worried (rightfully so, his own father was his age so he knows how it is first hand) but also knows how important it is for me so he's willing to go for it. I'm considering another ivf cycle soon so can't be a lip service...

[BaileyB]

8 minutes ago, Crazelnut said:

Are you going to continue your affair with him, knowing all this?

Indeed, she is because she took this discussion to be a step forward - they are now having serious conversations and there is no real threat that will stop them except for his for his paranoia (and unwillingness to file for divorce). 

[BaileyB]

3 minutes ago, TamBuktu said:

We spoke again about the kids decision and he is worried (rightfully so, his own father was his age so he knows how it is first hand) but also knows how important it is for me so he's willing to go for it. I'm considering another ivf cycle soon so can't be a lip service...

What he said was not “worry.”

He basically told you that he didn’t want to have children, and you are ignoring this because it doesn’t serve your plan. That is a very unloving and unkind thing to do to your partner. 

[TamBuktu]

23 minutes ago, stillafool said:

I've been through it and it isn't that hard when you're the one  ready to leave.  As a matter of fact it is a relief and you are looking forward to your new life.  It may be sadder for people who have kids together.  If your MM is miserable with his wife, no children with her, was in love wth you, he'd be with you by now.  He hasn't even told her about you and she has no clue you even exist.  She's thinking about eye contact from him and marriage counseling for goodness sake, preserving her marriage and you notice he didn't correct her on any of it.  Why?  Because if she insists he will march down to a marriage counselor to keep her.  He isn't going anywhere but back home to his wife.  I have a feeling the more you talk about him divorcing, (now that you've finally said something), you will feel him starting to pull away.  Just wait and you'll see.  There is another OW on this board who was so sure her MM loved her until she pushed to hard and he ended it even though he had been promising to divorce his wife.

When I was in a similar situation although I wasn't married yet and had to leave - it came with tremendous amount of guilt, questioning myself, back and forths, thinking what the families will say etc. Yes there was a big relief after it but definitely it took time.. from decision to break up about 6-7 months, to complete separation - double that. I don't know why people here say it's easy - totally not what i've experiences and witnessed. Maybe it comes down to personality.

He doesn't correct her for the obvious reason he doesn't want her to have a leverage agains him - and sure enough she will, if she can prove he's cheating. I am 1000% sure she suspects it, just have no hard evidence.

He's not pulling away. It has been few months and if anything, we got closer emotionally and even sex improved. No doubt what he's doing is wrong - - I would have been honest with my spouse and left. He will, eventually, but he's buying time and putting it on me. It's not right but I've accepted it and will roll with it... I keep reminding myself that yes, that's a flaw, but no, that's not his entirety as a person, and the pros are more than the cons.

 

[TamBuktu]

4 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

What he said was not “worry.”

He basically told you that he didn’t want to have children, and you are ignoring this because it doesn’t serve your plan. That is a very unloving and unkind thing to do to your partner. 

That's not true - that was by his words. If he said "unwilling" it would have been a dealbreaker, but he never said that. Only expressed legitimate worry.

Also, have you had children? Most people act very differently before and after having them, I wouldn't say i'm a big kid person myself but knowing they'll be my own changes everything.

[TamBuktu]

21 minutes ago, Crazelnut said:

So basically he confirmed everything we've been saying (the threats are BS, his money is secure, and the wife doesn't know about you), he confirmed that he won't be leaving (waiting for HER to make a move but she is clearly invested in the marriage and won't do it), and stated he really doesn't want a child.

Are you going to continue your affair with him, knowing all this?

I am. What i see besides the above is:
- there is no real reason to hang on their relationship besides fears (which can be overcomed)
-she won't initiate despite being unhappy for financial/security reasons - not a good reason to stay in a relationship, she'd inevitably look for connection elsewhere so his plot is not too much out of scope
-he's open to having children besides being worried for being older (which i am too, but it's not a dealbreaker)

The mere fact she was okay them to spend christmas etc apart tells me all i need to know about the status of their relationship and that I am NOT the main factor in breaking it.. She's emotionally checked out from all said and done so is he. Likely both of them are waiting a shoe to drop without taking responsibility.

I'm not gonna lie this is very hard for me to handle. But not hard enough to leave all that we've build together behind us.