Clashing political beliefs and values?

[philthebill]

Been seeing a 33 year old women for two months I'm 37 year old male , we share the love of nature, art , music and cycling. However our political beliefs are clashing ( shes quite liberal and I am kind of middle of the road on issues ) , although I have no issue with her supporting the causes she deems important, but will  debate her a little, we were having good discussions and if its getting too heavy we came up with a safe word to stop! 

Recently we went on a date, we got a taxi to the venue , the driver seemed to be of African origins and on his phone talking. When we got out of the taxi I mentioned any taxi driver I've gotten that is coloured is always talking on their phone ( I can see that this was not the right way of saying this ) she totally flipped out without given me a change to explain my self, when we got into the venue , she was still going. So I just decided we should leave. She said I was racist an did not want to be dating someone racist, and thinks we are not right for each other ( with our political ideas) We ended up going to a pub and talking about it , she was much more understanding when I told her where I was coming from, which was not a bad place , more of an observation!

Tl;Dr Just feel a little down , as we where getting on pretty well , and this has caused me to question her a little now. Just looking for people's thoughts on the issue, is it healthy that we were able to talk about the issue and do political stances matter ?

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, philthebill said:

Been seeing a 33 year old women for two months. She said I was racist an did not want to be dating someone racist, and thinks we are not right for each other ( with our political ideas)

All this drama after 60 days dating? Unless you want chronic political debates, cut your losses. You're incompatible.

[Mrin]

Wow. You actually said that? Yeesh.

The woman I'm dating has very *very* different political views than mine. The only way it works is for politics to be completely off limits.

But the instance you relayed isn't political. Not sure how you avoid that other than by not saying things that are, on their faces, racist. 

 

[glows]

The comment was racist so unfortunately trying to explain that away isn't going to work. Even if you meant it as an observation or mental note, keep it to yourself in future. I don't think this has to do with politics. You can learn to work around different political beliefs only if there is mutual respect for each other, in all other areas of your life. You seem disturbed by her reaction and she may pick up on this. Both are you are not getting along. As a side note, avoid saying something like that again outloud in any kind of company, dating or not. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by glows

[elaine567]

Warning: Why using the term 'coloured' is offensive - BBC News

This has nothing to do with her politics, 

[basil67]

@philthebill   l In a world where words are changing so quickly, I think that it's important to look at the intent of what someone said as opposed to picking on words.  

I got in trouble for saying something similar once.  I was a parent volunteer at a grade school swimming carnival.  Each lane of the 50m pool had a parent volunteer at the half way mark in case a child got into trouble with the distance.  I quickly learned that the skin colour of the kids was often a big clue that they may not be able swim competently, so for those kids,  I'd swim up closer to the start and support them.  It was also a thing that kids (of any colour) who came from a lower socio economic background were less likely to be competent swimmers.  

Anyway, I made this observation and was accused of being racist.  But for me, it was observation about keeping the kids safe and a sudden recognition of my own privilege having been raised around surf, rivers and backyard pools by a father who was a strong swimmer and in a culture where swimming is king.

Could we have not said what we did? Or worded it differently?  Absolutely.  Keeping these thoughts to ourselves would have been wise.  Or more tact could be used.  But by the same token, if no harm is meant then the strong reaction of your girlfriend was unwarranted.  

At this point, I would talk with your girlfriend. Tell her that you realise that your comments were insensitive and that you’re open to being respectfully corrected.  But that you are not OK with being yelled at.  

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed off topic

[Veronica73]

I mean….what exactly was your point? It does seem like a weird thing to point out.

Also…I noticed that you’re in Dublin….so I would guess that things must be different there. I’m in the US and I’m older than you and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anybody even close to my age refer to black people as “coloured.” Like maybe 80 year old people might still use that term.

[Veronica73]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

@philthebill   l In a world where words are changing so quickly, I think that it's important to look at the intent of what someone said as opposed to picking on words.  

I got in trouble for saying something similar once.  I was a parent volunteer at a grade school swimming carnival.  Each lane of the 50m pool had a parent volunteer at the half way mark in case a child got into trouble with the distance.  I quickly learned that the skin colour of the kids was often a big clue that they may not be able swim competently, so for those kids,  I'd swim up closer to the start and support them.  It was also a thing that kids (of any colour) who came from a lower socio economic background were less likely to be competent swimmers.  

Anyway, I made this observation and was accused of being racist.  But for me, it was observation about keeping the kids safe and a sudden recognition of my own privilege having been raised around surf, rivers and backyard pools by a father who was a strong swimmer and in a culture where swimming is king.

Could we have not said what we did? Or worded it differently?  Absolutely.  Keeping these thoughts to ourselves would have been wise.  Or more tact could be used.  But by the same token, if no harm is meant then the strong reaction of your girlfriend was unwarranted.  

At this point, I would talk with your girlfriend. Tell her that you realise that your comments were insensitive and that you’re open to being respectfully corrected.  But that you are not OK with being yelled at.  

 

I feel like the swimming situation is a little different, depending on how you said it. Like, if you are in an area where opportunities to swim are mostly limited by income, and if income level roughly correlated with skin color. But….I could be wrong on that.

[Taramere]

15 hours ago, philthebill said:

Recently we went on a date, we got a taxi to the venue , the driver seemed to be of African origins and on his phone talking. When we got out of the taxi I mentioned any taxi driver I've gotten that is coloured is always talking on their phone ( I can see that this was not the right way of saying this ) she totally flipped out without given me a change to explain my self, when we got into the venue , she was still going. So I just decided we should leave. She said I was racist an did not want to be dating someone racist, and thinks we are not right for each other ( with our political ideas) We ended up going to a pub and talking about it , she was much more understanding when I told her where I was coming from, which was not a bad place , more of an observation!

 

I don't know about political differences being the problem, so much as personality differences.  If a man I was dating made a comment like that, I'd think...yeah, maybe there's a bit of racism to watch out for here, but I wouldn't flip out as though he'd just disclosed that he was a subscriber to stormfront or some other white supremacy organisation.

I'd probably respond by some general question about why people talk on their phones when they're around strangers and wonder out loud whether it's a way of feeling more secure, or avoiding talking to the stranger etc.  Phones can be a useful device for helping people avoid interactions with others.  I personally haven't experienced black drivers talking a lot on their phones when I'm in the car, but that's probably because I almost always end up in conversation with taxi drivers unless I'm really tired.  And if the driver is engaged in a conversation with you, they're only going to be talking on their phone when it's a work related call.

What you describe sounds to me like a really bad date.  You made a comment, it could have led to some sort of conversation - but your girlfriend was more concerned with signalling outrage than she was with having a curious response to your comment.  So whatever conversation ensued sounds like it was all about you apologising and trying to redeem yourself in her eyes while she became magnanimous, understanding and forgiving.  If I were you, I'd wonder if that was a dynamic she was looking for in a relationship...and whether it was a dynamic I had any interest in being part of.

[FMW]

I would have definitely been turned off if a date said that.  I would not have "flipped out" (not my style), but I would have been ready to call it an evening.  For me it would mean something about how you see people, how you perceive differences.  The terminology "colored" is considered very offensive where I live and has a long history of representing unequal treatment and seeing someone as inferior.  I don't see any way someone can get beyond childhood and not have that understanding.  

That issue for me is not something that could be explained or discussed away.  

I obviously can't speak from the point of view of someone in other countries, but from the outside, with the exception of stylistic points I understand her reaction.

[glows]

I'm surprised she was interested in listening to anything you had to say. It would be willful ignorance at this point, now, this day and time, to not realize that the term coloured is offensive. To what degree she flipped out is unknown. Did she raise her voice or become agitated or was she only vocal or open about her response to what you said? 

If a date said something like this I might ask what he meant and mention what he said is offensive but I certainly wouldn't respond or see that person again. As you can see there are varying thresholds but I personally don't think any language like this is acceptable.

[Taramere]

4 hours ago, FMW said:

I would have definitely been turned off if a date said that.  I would not have "flipped out" (not my style), but I would have been ready to call it an evening.  For me it would mean something about how you see people, how you perceive differences.  The terminology "colored" is considered very offensive where I live and has a long history of representing unequal treatment and seeing someone as inferior.  I don't see any way someone can get beyond childhood and not have that understanding.  

I don't think the term has quite the same negative connotations in the UK and Ireland.  There's not a history of people being segregated, drinking fountains being reserved for "white" or "coloured" etc, so while it has that racist connotation of "othering" somebody who isn't white I don't think people here tend to have the instinctive feeling of being offended by it that they would if they associated the term with state sanctioned segregation.  It's not a term I've ever been fond of, but I don't have the strong, kneejerk reaction against it that people who grew up associating it with Jim Crow laws likely would.

In Elaine's BBC link, there's a mention of British actor Benedict Cumberbatch having got into problems for using the word "coloured" a few years ago.  I really doubt it was his intention to be racist, particularly as he used it in the context of talking about racial inequalities.  He almost certainly just didn't instinctively understand, in the way that an American probably would, that the term has very offensive connotations in the US.

This earlier BBC article (2006) doesn't so much state that the term is offensive as ask from a position of apparent uncertainty as to whether it's considered offensive.  This perhaps demonstrates the different process of reasoning behind it more gradually becoming unacceptable in the UK/Ireland (stressing this because the OP is posting from Ireland).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6132672.stm

Edited November 13, 2021 by Taramere

[Timshel]

On 11/12/2021 at 2:06 PM, philthebill said:

Tl;Dr Just feel a little down , as we where getting on pretty well , and this has caused me to question her a little now. Just looking for people's thoughts on the issue, is it healthy that we were able to talk about the issue and do political stances matter ?

In fairness, this has probably caused her to question you a little now as well. It's 2021, there isn't an excuse to use the word 'coloured' unless you are racist or have your head in a dark, warm place.

Here's wikpedia: 

The word colored (Middle English icoloured) was first used in the 14th century, but with a meaning other than race or ethnicity.[3][4] The earliest uses of the term to denote a member of dark-skinned groups of peoples occurred in the second part of the 18th century in reference to South America. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, colored was first used in this context in 1758 to translate the Spanish term mugeres de colòr ('colored women') in Antonio de Ulloa's A voyage to South America.[4]

The term came in use in the United States during the early 19th century, then was adopted by emancipated slaves as a term of racial pride after the end of the American Civil War, until it was replaced as a self-designation by Black or African-American during the second part of the 20th century. Due to its use in the Jim Crow era to designate items or places restricted to African Americans, the word colored is now usually considered to be offensive.[4]

The term has historically had a variety of connotations. In British usage, the term refers to "a person who is wholly or partly of non-white descent" and its use may be regarded as antiquated or offensive,[5][6] and other terms are preferable, particularly when referring to a single ethnicity.

 

[FMW]

If we take away the question of the term used being offensive, there is still the issue of stereotyping.  I think a lot of people would find stereotyping, particularly related to race, objectionable.  

@philthebill, you just have a basic incompatibility with this woman.  It's likely there are related subjects you will discover are an issue if you continue seeing each other.  The way we choose to speak about people reveals a lot.  

[spiderowl]

On 11/12/2021 at 7:06 PM, philthebill said:

Been seeing a 33 year old women for two months I'm 37 year old male , we share the love of nature, art , music and cycling. However our political beliefs are clashing ( shes quite liberal and I am kind of middle of the road on issues ) , although I have no issue with her supporting the causes she deems important, but will  debate her a little, we were having good discussions and if its getting too heavy we came up with a safe word to stop! 

Recently we went on a date, we got a taxi to the venue , the driver seemed to be of African origins and on his phone talking. When we got out of the taxi I mentioned any taxi driver I've gotten that is coloured is always talking on their phone ( I can see that this was not the right way of saying this ) she totally flipped out without given me a change to explain my self, when we got into the venue , she was still going. So I just decided we should leave. She said I was racist an did not want to be dating someone racist, and thinks we are not right for each other ( with our political ideas) We ended up going to a pub and talking about it , she was much more understanding when I told her where I was coming from, which was not a bad place , more of an observation!

Tl;Dr Just feel a little down , as we where getting on pretty well , and this has caused me to question her a little now. Just looking for people's thoughts on the issue, is it healthy that we were able to talk about the issue and do political stances matter ?

You observed or had noticed when paying attention that taxi drivers who were on their phone were coloured.  You may have been accurate in that or it may be that you only noticed this behaviour when they were coloured.  Either way, it was something you observed.  Instead of flipping out on you, if she really was liberal, she would have had a discussion with you about this, to find out whether it was just something that tended to happen or was because you had a biased view in the first place.  Accusing you of racism is not really going to help to understand where you (or she) are/is coming from or to change your opinions if you are racist.  People don't seem to realise that dramatic clashing does not help people to see through their prejudices; it just causes more distress.

If she thought you were being racist, it is fair that she challenged you, because apart from anything else she does not want to date someone who is racist.  However, flipping out and being angry with you does not help.  There can be a problem in that, taking everything possible into consideration, some people are very politically motivated and will make a 'thing' of almost anything.  This is a personality issue rather than a political one I feel.

I think you need to date someone else.  Do you really want this kind of conflict in your love life?  She is likely to fly off the handle whenever you appear to 'transgress'.  I find people with fixed thinking tend to be like this.  They are not really liberal at all because they are unable to listen to any other views and try to understand where others are coming from.  Yes, there is a case for not compromising or accepting someone else's views and opinions, if they are immoral or cruel, but some always seem to take it further than that and fight over every perceived or imagined sleight.  Your girlfriend seems to be like this.  It is not likely to get better unless she starts to listen to you and you listen to her in turn.  

Politics and religion can be very divisive.  I feel this is in part because political and religious tendencies are inborn in people's personalities (this is my theory and others might not agree, though I remember reading scientific research in the field where they used fMRI scanning of the brain to determine people's political tendencies (sorry, I don't have the reference here)).  It sounds like your girlfriend has more strict and stringent views on things than you.  You can either change to accommodate those - and find you are being challenged regularly - or decide to cut your losses.  It is 'healthy' that you were able to talk about it, but you still seem upset and obviously feel you were unfairly treated.  I think you need to trust your overall feelings and instincts about this relationship.  You may feel overall that the relationship is worth the occasional bout, but then again I suppose you need to bear in mind that if there are too many of these kinds of values/political disagreements, your girlfriend might give up on you.  In other words, do you really feel you are compatible with each other?

Incidentally, if this was in the UK and you were referring to a taxi driver talking on the phone when driving, unless they were using hands-free equipment, what they were doing was illegal, whoever they were.

Edited November 15, 2021 by spiderowl