Married sex life going down the pan.

[Aloysius1974]

Hi

I thought i would put this out there and see what people think. My wife and i have had a very weird relationship with sex since the kids. For the last few years i have tried to make our sex life more fun. She has not reciprocated at all. She wants sex, but on her terms. Just vanilla stuff. I don't want anything weird either by the way, just some interest in exploring what sex has to offer. It got to the stage where if she did try anything i felt like she was only doing it for me, and not because she wanted to. I want her to want to explore her sexual side and want to find ways of getting pleasure, not be doing it grudgingly. So this went on for a few years. A couple of months ago she went to a girls night and she told me about some of the things they chatted about. She said her and her mate are in the same situation that they have a relatively low sex drive and that they, and I quote "accommodate" the sexual advances from us husbands. So i basically said fine. I told her i am no longer interested in her accommodating me, or in a missionary position 2 miniute shag in the dark twice a week. I said if she wants a sex life then it is up to her to come up with something fun and exciting or I am not intrrested anymore. So, two months later....still no sex. I resent the fact that she can't be arsed to make even the slightest effort to get something going. I have dropped a few hints about us basically now being housemates etc, but still nothing. I refuse to go back to the crap boring sex which she would actually go for. I want her to make an effort.....do some research.....etc.

Am I being a twat? Or am I being reasonable?.....

[Acacia98]

If you've ruled out any medical issues (including mental health issues) and tried marital counselling and sex therapy, then I think you're incompatible and need to have a frank conversation about what that means.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Acacia98

[basil67]

While you have my sympathies, I can't say that you're going about this the right way.  Telling her that you won't participate in the sex which she's offering and then complaining that there is no sex doesn't make sense.   Wouldn't it make far more sense to have a discussion about fixing the problem?

Anyway, it's often said that problems inside the bedroom often start outside the bedroom.  So what is going on in her life?   Is she working or a stay at home mum?  How old are the kids?   How are her stress levels?   How would you describe your marriage in general? 

 

[Aloysius1974]

Thanks for the replies. I have tried to discuss it many times. It is always me that has to bring it up. She will never raise the issue; and again that makes me resentful. We haven't had any counselling but it has been discussed. As for sex being on offer and then complaining about not getting it; it isn't about that. It is about having a mutually enjoyable sex life, not a one sided one. 

We are both working parents. 

[basil67]

Yes, I understand that it was about having a mutually enjoyable experience, but your approach was hardly going to bring that as a result. 

OK, so let's backtrack.  When you've discussed it many times before, what does she say about the problem?  

And again, how old are the kids, how are her stress levels, her tiredness, and how would you describe your marriage in general?   Do the two of you go out on date nights?  Do you disagree respectfully?  Do you still make each other laugh?    For most women, all of these things are very relevant to her sex drive.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by basil67

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, Aloysius1974 said:

I refuse to go back to the crap boring sex which she would actually go for. I want her to make an effort.....do some research.....etc

Is your marriage overall in a rut? Do you have date nights, weekend get aways, private kid free time?

You want her to change. That never works. In fact the more you nag beg whine and complain the more off-putting it is.

Why aren't you doing "research"? Why aren't you doing anything?

Yes you're unreasonable simply because you're making her responsible for changes you want.

Are you getting excessively involved in porn? Is this the "research" you're referring to? 

What exactly do you want her to do? 

[Aloysius1974]

And again, how old are the kids, how 

Kids are 7, 8 and 11. Marriage is fine apart from this. In fact, since I have stopped being the one trying, the arguments have almost stopped. No, we don't do date night. 

No, not into porn. The reason I expect her to initiate the change is that I have been trying to for years. I want her to try. To show she isn't just "accommodating" me. 

When i have raised it many times we discuss it, and she recognises she needs to do more, says she will....but nothing ever changes. That has happened so many times I have given up.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Aloysius1974

[basil67]

Speaking of research, there's an excellent book called "Where Did My Libido Go?" by Dr Rosie King.   It's aimed fair and square at women who are in the same situation as your wife.    It's kind of a troubleshooting guide

At this point "accommodating" you is probably the best she can do.  The cause of the problem needs to be found before change can happen.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by basil67

[ajequals]

Your issue is very common. I remember going through it when we had children It mainly has to do Issues your wife is going through raising a family. and feeling tired all the time I remember complaining about it There use to be a lady on the radio name dr Laura. She was removed for being brutally honest  something sorely lacking in this day and age.  I use to listen to her trying to get some insight on women while working . One day a lady called complaining about her husband always wanting sex, sounding exactly like your wife and mine. Dr Laura. brought up how for men sex is a desire bread into us but for women It was strictly pleasure. She asked her why she would not want to do something that gives her pleasure? There was a silence that made me giggle as the woman that called in saw her point and agreed to change her mindset . I came home and told my wife about the story, little did I know she was listening to the same story at work. things didn't change overnight but they did change. Women also worry about getting pregnant again which also dampens the fun you should both be having .. remember the things you use to do before marriage ,being rather touchy, pawing at her.? try some of them ,take your time ,tease, enjoy yourself.

[Wiseman2]

27 minutes ago, Aloysius1974 said:

....but nothing ever changes. That has happened so many times I have given up.

Because you won't change them. She's just not attracted to you. Could be the nagging, could be lack of romance,etc.

Good idea to "give up". Yes stop all the nagging. Instead get to your physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Address ED issues.

Hit the gym, get in shape, improve your grooming. Get off the couch and start helping out around the house and with the kids. Plan dates. Send the kids to friends family grandma more often.

Do not shove self improvement books in her face. Fix you, not her. You're the problem. You've turned sex into a miserable chore. She's lost attraction as a result.

If you now shove low libido books at her,expect to sleep on the couch and hear from her attorney. Get your act together.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Wiseman2

[elaine567]

1 hour ago, Aloysius1974 said:

It is about having a mutually enjoyable sex life, not a one sided one. 

Your wife basically isn't interested in sex so it is bound to be one sided.
She told you her drive was low and she was "accommodating" you, but you didn't like that, so you went on strike hoping she would be forced into improving your sex life.
BUT instead she went "Great I don't need to bother "accommodating" him any longer".
There are no more arguments because she is now "free" and the pressure is off. It not a bad thing for her, it is a good thing.

Prior to the "strike" you have the discussion about sex, she says she will try to change, she tries and changes, but quickly stops trying and all goes back to what it was before you had the discussion. 
She is doing what most people do, who do not want to change, people who are happy and comfortable with the way things are.

Trouble is you want to have a mutual enjoyable sex experience with a woman who doesn't really enjoy sex to the extent that you do.
Was your sex life ever that good?
Was "missionary in the dark" the sum total?

BTW "in the dark" suggests lack of self esteem, body image issues... she may not feel sexy any longer.
 

Edited November 13, 2021 by elaine567

[usa1ah]

How long have the two of you been together?

 

How long were you together before having kids?

 

How was your sex life before kids?

 

Do you know if she had a active sex life before you? 

Edited November 13, 2021 by usa1ah

[snowcones]

Sorry to be the bearer of this news, but it won't change and this is very common.  Why do you think so many men have affairs?  Why do you think so many men visit sex workers?  The majority of their clients are married men.  And men aren't willing to leave their wives over this so you either need to learn how to be okay with masturbating for the rest of your life or exercise one of the options I listed here.

[Pumpernickel]

7 hours ago, elaine567 said:

instead she went "Great I don't need to bother "accommodating" him any longer".
There are no more arguments because she is now "free" and the pressure is off.

Yup. This 👆🏼100%   - you basically gave her an out 

But seriously: Your problem is very common. The sex gets boring and bland for (many, not all!) women after a few years in the relationship anyway. Add children (3!!) to the mix, a lot of laundry and chores, plus a full-time job and the resulting fatigue.
 

Yeah, I don’t blame her. All she probably wants is some me time after everything is finished & done after a busy week. plus: Women usually don’t have the sex drive built in biologically, so unlike for you, for her it’s not a priority and she could do without it altogether. It’s just another chore. And yes, that’s why many men stray, as somebody already mentioned above. 

The fact that she actually made an effort by accommodating you is not a bad sign at all. It means she was aware and she cared, and for this reason you still actually had a sex life, unlike many other couples. And she was honest about it. She tried to touch base, be honest, and communicate it to you as best as she could. You were obviously not happy about her bluntness, but it is what it is, and you probably won’t turn her into a foxy, horny sex goddess after you’ve been together 15 (or even 20) years. And you’ve known that all along. Just the fact that she spoke up and explained made it so much clearer for you, and now you’re probably a little bit disillusioned and maybe hopeless (like nothing’s ever gonna change now, now that she’s quite bluntly uncovered the elephant in the [bed]room)…..
 

I know it sucks, but there’s not really a lot you can do. I bet most couples have that problem. You’ll never know though, because nobody or hardly anybody in your friend circle will admit it. So it’s just your typical rug-swept topic. And you feel alone. I also don’t think therapy helps these couples a whole lot. It always feels forced somehow. And you already don’t like it when she tries and “accommodates” you, when she herself is not feeling it. Therapy will only make that feeling worse for you. It’ll feel even more forced. I’ve heard of a few exercises that sex therapists recommend, and these have helped some couples for a while, but not long-term. One of them is where you get into bed naked, and you can touch and kiss, but you’re not allowed to start intercourse or other sexual acts. That sometimes helps with arousal, probably because it’s “forbidden” or something. Maybe read up on those exercises and try them out. Other than that, I’m skeptical/doubtful anything will massively improve long-term. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 

[dramafreezone]

I hear about this a lot.  Whenever people get married the sex dwindles to a trickle.

How was sex before marriage?  Was she one to tear your clothes off, initiate?  Or was it you initiating but just more often than now?  Also how old are the two of you? 

I think the sex during the pre-marital stage goes a long way in defining how she views you.  This idea that women as a whole don't have a high sex drive is non-sense.  Some do some don't.  I think the *reasons* why they have sex are different from men but they enjoy it just as much with the right person.

Edited November 13, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

34 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

I think the sex during the pre-marital stage goes a long way in defining how she views you.  

Not sure I agree with that. Kids and marriage take  their toll.
He may be super stud pre marriage,  but if she is tired out with 3 kids and  bored out of her skull, depressed and has built up resentment over domestic chores and the like, she is not going to be thinking about sex.

[dramafreezone]

46 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Not sure I agree with that. Kids and marriage take  their toll.
He may be super stud pre marriage,  but if she is tired out with 3 kids and  bored out of her skull, depressed and has built up resentment over domestic chores and the like, she is not going to be thinking about sex.

Well, I didn't infer that the sex life pre-marriage will be equal to the sex after kids.  I do think it serves are a good indicator though.

That said, what you described would be very rare.  Someone that really did it for her pre-marriage, when she was initiating, she couldn't keep her hands off this guy, is not likely to turn into some typical pot-bellied husband that creates a boring life.  Could it happen?  Sure, but part of *that* guy's allure is that he keeps things fresh and interesting by default.

On the other hand, if OP was someone that had to ask for sex before the marriage, someone that she sees as "ok" but certainly not close to the best she's had, and she saw sex as more of an obligation, well what's happening in his marriage now would be a much more likely transition.  She settled for this second guy, which is part of that resentment and depression that you're talking about, and is thinking about what life would've been like with the guy that really turned her on.

Edited November 13, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

10 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

She settled for this second guy, which is part of that resentment and depression that you're talking about, and is thinking about what life would've been like with the guy that really turned her on.

I think you believe if a guy is all that sexually, then his wife will always want sex with him. I think you may be in for a disappointment...

[dramafreezone]

31 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

I think you believe if a guy is all that sexually, then his wife will always want sex with him. I think you may be in for a disappointment...

You'd be wrong in that assumption.  I try to avoid boxing myself in with terms like "always" or "never."  I'm a probablistic thinker, I try to take into account a number of factors when looking at situations.  If you look at my above question, I don't see where I made any absolute statements.  I think in terms of more likely to less likely. 

I don't think a guy's skills in bed matter are all that matter, but it's more about his overall value (based on what that woman values) and charisma.  And I don't think every woman that has kids and household obligations is doomed for a life of depression and resentment either.  That is more likely if they feel they settled for a guy.

It still matters a great deal what their sex life before marriage was, because it gives insight as to how she views that man, so i'd be interested to hear the OP's answer.

Also, if I'm getting married at this point in my life, it won't be to have an amazing sex life, it would be to have children and raise a family.  That's the most logical reason for a man to get married these days IMO.

Edited November 13, 2021 by dramafreezone

[elaine567]

 I think he already answered that one

11 hours ago, Aloysius1974 said:

My wife and i have had a very weird relationship with sex since the kids.

 

[Pumpernickel]

8 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

It still matters a great deal what their sex life before marriage was,

Yes, but that pre-marriage hypothesis you’re referring to only works if a subpar pre-marital sex life is assumed. Ie.: hypothesis: pre-marital sex is rare/poor/boring ———-> conclusion: marital sex is likely to be rare/poor/boring

Pre-marital sex lives can be awesome, for many reasons, one of them being novelty, and will dwindle eventually in +70% of all marriages. Some can keep it fresh longer. But it’ll never be the same and both, men & women, will get bored eventually. (For men it’s often even worse. Boredom combined with less frequency.)

[dramafreezone]

11 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

11 hours ago, Aloysius1974 said:

My wife and i have had a very weird relationship with sex since the kids.

 

I would still be interested to know what *he* thought was a good sex life beforehand.  It doesn't mean that she was ever super enthusiastic about it.  I don't want to make assumptions.

9 minutes ago, Pumpernickel said:

Yes, but that pre-marriage hypothesis you’re referring to only works if a subpar pre-marital sex life is assumed. Ie.: hypothesis: pre-marital sex is rare/poor/boring ———-> conclusion: marital sex is likely to be rare/poor/boring

Pre-marital sex lives can be awesome, for many reasons, one of them being novelty, and will dwindle eventually in +70% of all marriages. Some can keep it fresh longer. But it’ll never be the same and both, men & women, will get bored eventually. (For men it’s often even worse. Boredom combined with less frequency.)

I think some are misunderstanding me.  I didn't say that sex life doesn't dwindle if it was great before marriage, I said it can serve as a good indicator of what sex life will trend into later.  I'll clarify here; it would be pretty rare for people to have the same type of sex life at 45 that they have at 25.

[Lotsgoingon]

What's really difficult for a lot of husbands is that they have not really learned to read their wives--and wives who lose interest in sex often just shut down their communication. They don't really share honestly what they're feeling--other than the disinterest. They don't explain their feelings. Don't explain what's going on. And of course, the knock against us guys is, we don't emotional awareness to understand it if they did tell us what's going on, and we don't know how to listen anyway.

So right now, you are basically clueless about what's going on with your wife, clueess about what she's really feeling and thinking.  You have zero ideas, zero curiosity, zero imagination for trying to figure out what she is feeling inside. You're just focused on the most obvious external thing: she doesn't want to have sex. A challenge to you: you want sex, figure out what is going on inside your wife's head and with her heart and spirit. And I don't mean to slam you because this is quite hard and if you guys have been in relationship without this level of understanding, then it's hard to just snap your fingers and change.

Trust me: there are a thousand thoughts, feelings and sensations your wife is experiencing about sex--she just isn't sharing them with you. And I'm not blaming you. She also plays a part in this.  Likely your wife doesn't feel safe telling you what's really going on.  And not just because of you, but also because she may fear she's failing as a partner. 

There is a book about women's sexuality that takes on this very issue, a book that a lot of men and husbands say has really helped them understand why their partners lost interest in sex. It's called "Come as You Are" by Emily Nagoski. You could probably find some good interviews with the author on various podcasts. The book was a huge hit on the podcast circuit.  Basically Nagoski talks about things that put the breaks on sexual desire and the things that rev up the desire. The desire for sex can get thwarted in both ways--from things blocking the desire from emerging and things missing that would stimulate desire. 

It's quite likely your wife is exhausted: physically and emotionally. I think you may be missing how much energy raising kids takes out of women. Heck one kid can do that. Three, omg. In some many marriages, women put enormous pressure on themselves--and they feel enormous pressure from society--so they don't want to admit how exhausting and bone-tired and emotionally spent they are in raising kids. 

I think you gotta back up and back off of intercourse sex as the goal. Your wife says she has a low sex drive. How is her health and how is her weight? There are a lot of women who if they gain weight (which raising kids can make so easy to do) really turn hyper-critical of their own bodies. Giving birth to children also is rough on women's bodies. Could very well be that your wife doesn't think she's attractive right now.  And btw: this is not a superficial judgment easily fixed by a husband saying "you look good honey." No, it can be deeper than that.

What does your wife do for fun? It can be hard for women to have high sexual interest if the rest of life is just work and kid-raising and the 24/7 worrying that is kidraising and preparing means and cleaning and shopping--and of course some women do all this while holding a job outside the home.  Ironically, her finding something truly fun to do--probably without you--could generate some real joy and playful energy in her life. And that playful energy isn't too far away from sexual desire. 

Where you need to go--besides developing some real curiosity about what's going on inside of her-- is for touch. Do you guys hug? Massage each other? Rub each other's shoulders? A lot of women find loving touch so important. And this can't just be foreplay on the way to sex. This has to be genuine touch as its own pleasure and fun. Not even particularly sexual touch. Just touch. Lots of women crave touch, and actually quite a number feel they do NOT get it from sex. 

What about kissing? Do you guys kiss? That's another good thing to do. 

Basically there's a lot going on, and you aren't privy to it because you don't know how to look for what's going on and she's not sharing what's really going on. But a lot IS going on inside of her. A ton. 

 

[basil67]

I like a lot of what @Lotsgoingon has written above.  As a woman who lost interest in sex with a previous partner, I 100% agree that there are all these thoughts and feelings going on.  But from a personal perspective, I had no idea that my resentment at feeling unappreciated, not doing nice things anymore, and his (what I believe in hindsight) depression played a part in it all.   (This was late 80's, so there wasn't the amount of information then that there is now).   So when he wanted to talk about why I didn't want sex, I honestly had no answers.  I didn't know why.  I did counselling but no counsellor connected the dots for me.   This could be the same for your wife.  She may not realise that feeling X&Y creates a loss of interest in sex.

 

 

[JRabbit]

ever hear the ol saying... Wine em, dine em....69 em?  Might be worth a shot