Dating MM as he goes through a divorce; can he be trusted after long term a?

[Prudence V]

9 hours ago, S2B said:

the ones who cheat - will always cheat.

I know this not to be true. If it were true, no marriage could ever recover from infidelity- yet some do. No A could ever transition into a long-term happy *and healthy* - yet some do. Not everyone who embarks on infidelity once, repeats that behaviour - some do, some don’t - same way that not everyone who bungee jumps once goes on to do it multiple times. 

 

On 12/10/2021 at 2:30 AM, S2B said:

Odds are high he will cheat on you. His past predicts it.

This is a myth many people like to quote. Yet they forget that everyone who “cheats” had, until the point at which they “cheated”, had a background of marital fidelity. If the past was such a reliable predictor of the future, then they would simply have continued to be faithful and would never have “cheated”. 
 

People’s behaviour is influence by their dispositions, their circumstances and their choices. The people whose plane crashed in the Andes chose to eat their dead fellow passengers in order to survive. That didn’t result in them becoming cannibals long-term. Once they were out of that situation, they reverted to their previous (non-cannibal) behaviour. Some other people though enjoy cannibalism for reasons other than necessity or circumstance, and their choices are based on different factors. Someone who is unfaithful owing to particular circumstances within their marriage, once removed from those particular circumstances, may never need to “cheat” again. Someone else who enjoys infidelity for reasons beyond circumstance though may well repeat the behaviour when circumstance allows. It comes down to knowing the difference between the two. 

[heartwhole2]

I agree that everyone could cheat given the right stressors, opportunity, etc. I think that believing "I would never cheat" is a mental shortcut that feels reassuring but can leave you vulnerable. As someone committed to a relationship, you take steps to deal with your stressors and avoid opportunities for cheating because, hey, those hormones are fun, right?

After my husband cheated on me, I found his explanations for why he would never cheat again lacking. He said something like, "Because I feel so in love with you." I was like, wrong answer . . . so if one day you don't feel in love, right back to cheating? He's still in counseling today, not so much about the cheating, but to work on himself . . . his coping skills, how to approach situations, etc. I know his answer today would be a lot better. So in your case, I wouldn't accept "I won't cheat because I love YOU too much" as an answer. The correct answer is, "Obviously I have to admit that I could cheat given the right circumstances. My commitment to you is that I will guard against those circumstances, and I will be honest with you always. If I want to have a relationship with someone else, I will end our relationship first."

This isn't really a scientific answer, but I do base a lot of decisions on my gut. It was easier to extend trust to my husband after his affair because he was really a bad liar and obviously guilt stricken during it. I spent those months trying to figure out what the heck was going on. So that reassures me that he's not some smooth, pathological liar without a conscience. He has friends of good character who don't condone cheating. Being a good person is important to him. He's in counseling which has helped him mature and gain insight into himself a lot. I don't know your MM, so I can't say what sort of person he is, but if you think he plays more fast and loose with the rules, if he isn't bothered  by a little lying if it will help him avoid conflict, then I'd be wary going forward.

[Ha-ha]

11 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

I don’t want to even think about his past but it’s hard not to. Maybe I’m afraid of being sidetracked and getting hurt if I forget about it and naively think it won’t happen.. another way of guarding my heart a little bit. 

Unfortunately you have to if you decide to take this path. No one can guarantee anything. If you’re sure he’s the one, trust yourself and move forward. If he chats so be it and deal with it. 
There's no guarantee in any relationship esp if you believe to ignore the precedence.  Affairs or not. 
 

let's say you meet a single guy with a history of cheating. How would you guard your heart?  It should apply here too

Edited January 22, 2022 by Berlin

[Myabee]

43 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

Being a good person is important to him. He's in counseling which has helped him mature and gain insight into himself a lot. I don't know your MM, so I can't say what sort of person he is, but if you think he plays more fast and loose with the rules, if he isn't bothered  by a little lying if it will help him avoid conflict, then I'd be wary going forward

So are you telling her this man can't be trusted? 

[central]

Let's not forget that OP's morals aren't any better - she had an affair with a married man.  Technically, she didn't cheat, but helped him cheat.  Can she be trusted any more than he can?

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Myabee said:

So are you telling her this man can't be trusted? 

I don't know because I don't know if he lies with ease in his daily life. But if he does, that's a huge red flag.

Whenever I catch someone in a small, meaningless lie, I usually stop investing in the relationship. If they lie about small things, they'll lie about big things. I prefer to be with people who tell you the truth, even when it's embarrassing. (It also motivates you NOT to do embarrassing things if you know you'll have to own up to them later.)

[Happy Lemming]

17 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

Does anyone have or know of any success stories to share? I’d love to hear. Thanks. 

In answering your original question about success stories...  This would have been a "success story" as this woman would have been perfect (for me).  She was adventurous, nomadic (similar to me) and just all around fun to be with.

In my youth (many years ago), I "dated" a married woman.  For some reason, her husband didn't want to "touch" her or pay any attention to her or do anything with her.  He just wanted to go to work (6 days a week)... even on his day off, he'd wander into work to "help out".  She was very sad and lonely.

A mutual friend introduced us and there was an instant spark.  The three of us met at this little bar/dance club.  A song was being played and she wanted to go on the dance floor.  So she and I went out on the dance floor (fast dance), then a slow dance came on and I started to walk off the dance floor and she said "no, dance another song with me".  She pulled me close to her and during the song she kissed me.  That kiss was perfect, I still remember it to this day.  Then she whispered in my ear that she wanted me to make love to her.  Apparently, she had worked out some signal with this mutual friend and if she liked me, he would excuse himself and leave. That evening we went back to my house and had INCREDIBLE sex (I mean "off the charts" sex).  We started seeing each other every evening (her husband wasn't home).  I was working on a project house (in the evenings after work) and told her just come over whenever she wanted and she did!! 

This woman had a female friend that would cover for her, so we also went out of town on various overnight and extended weekend adventures.  We'd go hiking and camping, everywhere.  She had this new 4 X 4 truck, so we'd go off road everywhere!!  Pick a place to camp for the night and pitch a tent under the stars.  We also went dancing, she loved to dance... again something her husband refused to do with her. 

We were both very happy...  then one day after almost a year, she came to me "to talk".  Apparently, her husband talked her into some type of marriage counseling or therapy and they were going to give it "one last try".  With tears in her eyes, she ended our relationship.  I was sad, but I picked myself up and continued on with life. 

Fast forward six months and she called and told me that her and her husband were divorcing.  They tried various therapists and counselors and nothing worked.  She wanted to get back together (with me).  At this point, I was dating someone new and thought it might have potential, so I didn't dump my new girlfriend.  In hind sight, I so wish I had dumped my new girlfriend and gone back to this woman.

I really do believe our relationship would have worked out (and been a success) had she not ended it to give her marriage (one last try).  And no I don't think she would have cheated on me.  She wasn't overly demanding.  The smallest act of kindness, a little attention, a surprise kiss on a hiking trail and she was both content & appreciative. This woman just wanted a partner that would show her a little love and attention.  She wasn't asking for too much (in my opinion).

I do wish you all the happiness in the world and hope everything works out for you.

 

 

[kaylasummer]

59 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

In answering your original question about success stories...  This would have been a "success story" as this woman would have been perfect (for me).  She was adventurous, nomadic (similar to me) and just all around fun to be with.

In my youth (many years ago), I "dated" a married woman.  For some reason, her husband didn't want to "touch" her or pay any attention to her or do anything with her.  He just wanted to go to work (6 days a week)... even on his day off, he'd wander into work to "help out".  She was very sad and lonely.

A mutual friend introduced us and there was an instant spark.  The three of us met at this little bar/dance club.  A song was being played and she wanted to go on the dance floor.  So she and I went out on the dance floor (fast dance), then a slow dance came on and I started to walk off the dance floor and she said "no, dance another song with me".  She pulled me close to her and during the song she kissed me.  That kiss was perfect, I still remember it to this day.  Then she whispered in my ear that she wanted me to make love to her.  Apparently, she had worked out some signal with this mutual friend and if she liked me, he would excuse himself and leave. That evening we went back to my house and had INCREDIBLE sex (I mean "off the charts" sex).  We started seeing each other every evening (her husband wasn't home).  I was working on a project house (in the evenings after work) and told her just come over whenever she wanted and she did!! 

This woman had a female friend that would cover for her, so we also went out of town on various overnight and extended weekend adventures.  We'd go hiking and camping, everywhere.  She had this new 4 X 4 truck, so we'd go off road everywhere!!  Pick a place to camp for the night and pitch a tent under the stars.  We also went dancing, she loved to dance... again something her husband refused to do with her. 

We were both very happy...  then one day after almost a year, she came to me "to talk".  Apparently, her husband talked her into some type of marriage counseling or therapy and they were going to give it "one last try".  With tears in her eyes, she ended our relationship.  I was sad, but I picked myself up and continued on with life. 

Fast forward six months and she called and told me that her and her husband were divorcing.  They tried various therapists and counselors and nothing worked.  She wanted to get back together (with me).  At this point, I was dating someone new and thought it might have potential, so I didn't dump my new girlfriend.  In hind sight, I so wish I had dumped my new girlfriend and gone back to this woman.

I really do believe our relationship would have worked out (and been a success) had she not ended it to give her marriage (one last try).  And no I don't think she would have cheated on me.  She wasn't overly demanding.  The smallest act of kindness, a little attention, a surprise kiss on a hiking trail and she was both content & appreciative. This woman just wanted a partner that would show her a little love and attention.  She wasn't asking for too much (in my opinion).

I do wish you all the happiness in the world and hope everything works out for you.

 

 

Thank you. I can relate to a lot of your relationship with xMW. I know it’s easier said than done, but you chose your current girlfriend for a reason. It may not be in that new exciting phase at the moment.  It sounds like the last relationship ended during that phase, which is why you remember it so fondly. It may have worked had she not ended it. Had you gone back after 6 months, that may have fizzled out leaving you longing for your current girlfriend as well.. who knows. Wishing you the best.

Edited January 22, 2022 by kaylasummer

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Had you gone back after 6 months, that may have fizzled out leaving you longing for your current girlfriend.. who knows. Wishing you the best.

My relationship with the married woman was many years ago, I've dated A LOT of women in between the married woman and my current long term partner.

But yes... my long term girlfriend and I have been together for 10 years and are both happy.

I do hope my "Married Woman" met someone and found the happiness that she was looking for.

 

[BaileyB]

2 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I don't know because I don't know if he lies with ease in his daily life. But if he does, that's a huge red flag.

He has had more than one affair and he has not been honest with either his wife or his affair partner… the lies have been revealed slowly, and he has offered the trickle truth to Kayla with the promise that he would “never cheat on her.”

He introduced this woman to his friends, his family, his children. He brought her into the family home/cabin to spend the weekend. His family and friends have lied FOR him. And while some may consider this to be a man showing commitment/legitimizing his affair partner, personally find it unbelievably disrespectful to his wife. 

Did he marry the wrong woman and is he better matched with his affair partner - possibly. Will this work out long term for Kayla, nobody can say with any certainty. The red flags are certainly there, but it seems to be a risk that she is willing to take. And while I don’t necessarily agree with the adage - once a cheater, always a cheater - there is a pattern of behavior here that should not be ignored. And, it’s difficult to say that he has treated either woman with the respect they deserve. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

He has had more than one affair and he has not been honest with either his wife or his affair partner… the lies have been revealed slowly, and he has offered the trickle truth to Kayla with the promise that he would “never cheat on her.”

He introduced this woman to his friends, his family, his children. He brought her into the family home/cabin to spend the weekend. His family and friends have lied FOR him. And while some may consider this to be a man showing commitment/legitimizing his affair partner, personally find it unbelievably disrespectful to his wife. 

Did he marry the wrong woman and is he better matched with his affair partner - possibly. Will this work out long term for Kayla, nobody can say with any certainty. The red flags are certainly there, but it seems to be a risk that she is willing to take. And while I don’t necessarily agree with the adage - once a cheater, always a cheater - there is a pattern of behavior here that should not be ignored. And, it’s difficult to say that he has treated either woman with the respect they deserve. 

Exactly this.. I know his past which is why it weighs on my mind. His ex knew about our friendship from the beginning. He was open with his xW when we’d hang out. He’d even bring me to their home. There were evenings we’d all hang out together. She knew we hung out with his family/friends as well.

As feelings started to develop on both ends, I kept telling myself “it’s harmless, he’s married, nothing will ever come of this, and it won’t go any further!” I never in a million years thought that I of all people would end up in an A with a MM! 

She knew we were close and from the sounds of it, he wasn’t giving up our friendship, so I think she “had to accept it.”She came to me before dday and told me “you’re the only one he spends time with and you know him better than anyone”, followed by “he’s been absent physically and emotionally since …”,(the month/year our A became physical) asking if I knew what was wrong with him. I told her she needed to “talk to him”… so she knew we were close. He told me she had to know, didn’t care (that’s what we told ourselves I guess). 

From what I’ve gathered, I don’t think she had a lot of confidence and let him do as he pleased in fear of being alone. To me, a close friendship with a female like that would have been a dealbreaker… an absolute no. I’m not sure what my point is, other than he wasn’t completely dishonest and she did know how close we were (just not the extent of it). I would have never allowed that!

Edited January 22, 2022 by kaylasummer

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I’m not sure what my point is, other than I wouldn’t put up with any of that 

And yet, you did. You have been in a relationship with the man for three years - he is still married to the woman, is he not? 

Kindly Kayla, you may rationalize this by saying that she must have known and accepted the situation. Or, that she lacked the confidence to require him to be faithful to her -

But the truth is, it’s not her fault that her husband has been lying to her and having sex with other women.

No woman deserves to be betrayed in this way. Let’s say they did marry young and they were not well matched - that does not excuse his behavior in any way. If she wasn’t the right partner for him and he didn’t want to be married anymore, he had the right to file for divorce, not to have sex with other women. He could have done the responsible and respectful thing and ended one relationship before beginning another. He chose not to do that, because it was not in HIS best interest to do that. Instead, he made other decisions - 

If he wants to cheat again, he will cheat again. You will have about as much control over his behavior as his wife had -

How will you cope with the anxiety? You are already anxious - you continue to post looking for some reassurance that this man won’t hurt you the way he has hurt his wife? That anxiety won’t go away - you will wonder every time he stays late at work, or goes away for a business trip, or answers a text on his phone in the evening… Can you live with the anxiety that the man you have chosen to trust has proven himself to be a dishonest and untrustworthy partner? 

Edited January 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[kaylasummer]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

And yet, you did. You have been in a relationship with the man for three years - he is still married to the woman, is he not

They filed for divorce a couple of months ago.

[kaylasummer]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

No woman deserves to be betrayed in this way. Let’s say they did marry young and they were not well matched - that does not excuse his behavior in any way. If she wasn’t the right partner for him and he didn’t want to be married anymore, he had the right to file for divorce, not to have sex with other women. He could have done the responsible and respectful thing and ended one relationship before beginning another

Completely agree 100%

[kaylasummer]

9 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

you will wonder every time he stays late at work, or goes away for a business trip

I know😔 That is my fear and I’m praying that fear will someday subside. I’m in way too deep to walk away at this point.

Edited January 22, 2022 by kaylasummer

[BaileyB]

43 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Completely agree 100%

Do you hear what I’m saying though Kayla - you agree that he should have filed for divorce rather than cheat but you allowed it. You were in a relationship with another woman’s husband for three years. Your words say one thing. Your behavior says another. 

And now you say - I would never allow that. IF he was married to ME, it would be different. Or would it? That’s the question you are asking - 

As for the divorce, it came after d-day and after his wife tried to reconcile and apparently decided that her life would be better without the man who lied to her and cheated on her for so many years… I believe you’ve said it was a “mutual” decision, but to me it sounds like a woman who finally found some self respect and decided to kick her cheating husband to the curb - 

I’m sure when he married his wife, she thought she was going to get a faithful husband too. Did he not have an affair early on when she was pregnant or had a young child, and she forgave him and chose to stay? I bet her told her then it would never happen again, that he loved her and he wanted a life with his wife and child. She forgave him and look how that turned out for her…

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by BaileyB

[kaylasummer]

28 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Do you hear what I’m saying though Kayla - you agree that he should have filed for divorce rather than cheat but tolerated it

I get that. I guess you can say I did tolerate it. Ideally, he would have filed the instant it became more.. I thought he was safe, married. I did not intend for it to turn in to a full blown affair. I tried to end it (or quit him) so many times but we couldn’t. It was a rollercoaster of emotions during the A that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

I do know he talked to his parents early on in our A about divorce and was told “—insert his last name— do not divorce”. His parents are extremely religious and very much against divorce. He spent his entire life trying to please them (the reason for his profession as well). They warned him when he met xW that she was too old; it wouldn’t work, but switched gears when he told them she was expecting just after. He was then told “he needed to marry her for the child”.

Things have obviously changed when he told them about his feelings for me and eventually filed. They’ve since fully accepted me in to their family. His mom recently told me that I have made him so happy which makes them happy and thanked me for that. So I understand why he didn’t divorce right away (that on top of kids, alimony, properties, etc), but I agree. I wish he would have:(

Edited January 22, 2022 by kaylasummer

[BaileyB]

Would he be willing to do some individual counselling Kayla - or attend counselling with you to discuss some of your concerns?

[Ha-ha]

39 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

They’ve since fully accepted me in to their family. His mom recently told me that I have made him so happy which makes them happy and thanked me for that. S

Then why worry?  Please stop looking in the past and move forward. You get what you wish for and now it’s time to enjoy it. Every relationship has a risk, as his wife has experienced. But who knows?  Yours could be different. 

[S2B]

Quote

 

 
 

followed by “he’s been absent physically and emotionally since …”,(the month/year our A became physical) asking if I knew what was wrong with him. I told her she needed to “talk to him”…

 

did his wife indicate what she meant when she asked if you “knew what was wrong with him?”

[Milly May June]

Somehow I find OPs story hard to believe. 

Tell me one woman whose H cheated that would be ok letting her H spend time with another woman as friends. Introduce her to family and kids? 

And what type of family (a religious one at that) and what type of friends welcome an affair partner with open arms? I mean, if this is his family and friends I feel so bad for his wife having these backstabbers in her life. Can you imagine? 

Idk but this story sounds fake to me. I think I remarked on it once before. Sounds like a plot in a romance novel and the storyline is followed perfectly. It's like a beautiful happy ending is waiting around the corner. The two lovers could just not help them selfes and are meant to be. The MM risked it all for his true love with the help and support of his friends and family. His family is thrilled and his kids welcome her with open arms. 

I this story is real then good for OP for getting her man and good for the wife getting rid of all those toxic people in her life. If this story is fake I suspect the OP is a scorn OW trying to write a happy ending that she did not get.

[Ha-ha]

1 hour ago, Milly May June said:

Somehow I find OPs story hard to believe. 

Tell me one woman whose H cheated that would be ok letting her H spend time with another woman as friends. Introduce her to family and kids? 

And what type of family (a religious one at that) and what type of friends welcome an affair partner with open arms? I mean, if this is his family and friends I feel so bad for his wife having these backstabbers in her life. Can you imagine? 

Idk but this story sounds fake to me. I think I remarked on it once before. Sounds like a plot in a romance novel and the storyline is followed perfectly. It's like a beautiful happy ending is waiting around the corner. The two lovers could just not help them selfes and are meant to be. The MM risked it all for his true love with the help and support of his friends and family. His family is thrilled and his kids welcome her with open arms. 

I this story is real then good for OP for getting her man and good for the wife getting rid of all those toxic people in her life. If this story is fake I suspect the OP is a scorn OW trying to write a happy ending that she did not get.

I think likewise. i do not understand the insistence of coming back here and wants guarantee of a happily ever after. 

[BaileyB]

7 hours ago, Milly May June said:

And what type of family (a religious one at that) and what type of friends welcome an affair partner with open arms?

I’m going to guess that he is the “favorite son,” this man who is a doctor and has made his family very proud. 

I’m also going to guess that that his family doesn’t know all the details here. They don’t know that he cheated on his pregnant wife, that there has been more than one, that he has been in an affair for the past three years - 

I find it very odd that his family and friend have known about his antics and not told his wife. Something to remember in the future Kayla, you know where their loyalty lays - they were willing to lie for him, they kept his dirty little secret. They may have “welcomed you with open arms” but I wouldn’t trust his family. 

[spiritedaway2003]

OP, you won't get the reassurance you are seeking, because there are no guarantees to any relationship. Every relationship has its own dynamics, and you can take what you know and the red flags and decide whether you want to continue or not. 

I was once involved in short affair with MM.  DDday happened and like you, I left and went NC and then IC for help.  I wanted to be angry at him for putting me in a position I never wanted to be, but I couldn't get there. In some ways, I knew that deflecting blame or minimizing what happened (it was not a full blown affair) was not constructive.  What helped most was when I owned up to the choices I made.  It was only through acceptance of my part in it when I can truly begin to address the loss/guilt/shame, knowing that I've contributed to the hurt and pain of others.

What is important to also understand is that once toothpaste is out of the tube, you can't put back in. You have to choose how you want to move forward. 

On the question about trust --- that was actually the easy part for me.  Yes. I trust him. Both of us had led our lives with integrity, until our paths/ boundaries crossed. Neither of us had a history of cheating.  In the end, they decided to separate. We also did not get back together immediately, as we were working through issues in IC.  We have had many difficult conversations.  In that way, we had already seen the best and worst versions of each other.  At the end of the day, I wanted to give him (and us) a chance to find out if what we had was real.  Even in a worst case scenario, I know I can walk away and I would still be OK.

It's been a couple of years since and we are still together.  Without a doubt, we both recognize how it all began was very unhealthy.  As for that spark and our compatibility we had - they are still there to this diay and our relationship had evolved in much the same way regular relationships do.  It has deepened into care, respect and affections. We are supportive of our journeys and we're grateful for each other through the stresses of daily lives.  It isn't always an easy road since I don't have support of family members and that can be a lonely road to walk.   However, I'm the one who has to live my life and I have to be OK with my choices, not anyone else.  I know that love is the one constant that had sustained us.  We are committed to one another and we are still madly in love.

I don't pretend to know how it'll all end.  All I know is that we see, love and accept each other as we are with our flaws and all, and that is enough for me.

Just like in any relationship, the rest is still unwritten. 

If you are in a place where you are having lots of doubts about his ability to protect your relationship, those are red flags you need to consider.  Ask yourself if you're dealing with your own insecurities, or if he's still giving you reasons to doubt.  If you need time apart to figure it out or if you both need to go to counseling together, those might be options.  He should be understanding of those needs, at a minimum.  Only you can decide if the relationship is worth it (and your anxiety), who you can and cannot trust, and that will guide you in how you want to move forward.  I would add that given your situation -- I personally would be even more immensely uncomfortable had I know his family and his ex. That adds another layer of complexity and I know the guilt would eat me up.  Good luck.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by spiritedaway2003

[kaylasummer]

9 hours ago, S2B said:

did his wife indicate what she meant when she asked if you “knew what was wrong with him?”

She thought he may be having an A, yes:(