Dating MM as he goes through a divorce; can he be trusted after long term a?

[kaylasummer]

5 minutes ago, stillafool said:

5 years is not that much older.  A lot of couples have a 5 year age difference.  They are of the same generation.

She’s a lot more than 5 years older than him (typo if I had 5) It is closer to 15.

[kaylasummer]

2 hours ago, S2B said:

You’ve convinced yourself you’re in too far… that’s an illusion.

if I can untangle myself from a 27 year marriage with kids - you can EASILY untangle YOURSELF from a serial cheater whom you’ve never married! 

stop kidding yourself! You can walk away IF you want to/ decide to!

there is NOTHING making you stay!

Except my heart unfortunately 

[ilikept]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

My point was that common interests were not the reason for cheating.  

 

OK so now you are saying that common interests were NOT the reason you two were cheating and that what you said 3 posts ago is not applicable.    Because in two of the last 3 posts you made prior you said that your common interests was the reason and that is what you bonded over.  

I'm just making sure that I am caught up to date and that now we are to believe that it wasn't the common interests why you got together for and bonded over for a 3 year affair.  

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, stillafool said:

So he told you it was over with before he met you but still wouldn't/hasn't divorced after he met the love of his life/best friend which is you.  Even though he helped you to divorce your husband because he said he wasn't good for you he still did not divorce his wife, the one who "it was over with long before he met you".  Instead he let the 'love of his life/you' convince him to go back with the one "it was over with". 

No, he carried on for three years in an affair with “the woman he loves” and his “best friend” - hurting Kayla in the process - because he didn’t have the courage to live authentically and with integrity and ask for a divorce/tell his family he needed to make a different decision. Better to sneak around - introducing his affair partner to his family and friends, bringing her into his home to spend time with his wife and children, stealing moments at the office and weekends at the family cabin when his wife is out of town…

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

She’s a lot more than 5 years older than him (typo if I had 5) It is closer to 15.

"His wife is fifteen years older than me and five years older than MM."

The above is what you said in your original thread about this man.  

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

No, he carried on for three years in an affair with “the woman he loves” and his “best friend” - hurting Kayla in the process - because he didn’t have the courage to live authentically with integrity and ask for a divorce/tell his family he needed to make a different decision. Better to sneak around - introducing his affair partner to his family and friends, bringing her into his home to spend time with his wife and children, stealing moments at the office and weekends at the family cabin when his wife is out of town…

 

Yeah all while his wife was nice enough to let him support his "best friend" not knowing what was going on behind her back and under her roof.

[Eeejay]

Kayla, gently - your language shows your lack of accountability, and (more dangerously) how little accountability you expect from him. The way you talk makes it sound like you both are a victim of this nebulous 'it'. 'It' started up again. We couldn't stop 'it'. We were in 'it' too deep. 'I felt extreme guilt' - okay, but so what? It didn't change anything. It didn't stop you from making these choices over three years. You say you 'ended it so many times' - that statement is contradictory. You never ended it. It's still going on.

There is no IT. There is no 'thing' that forced you two to do what you did.

I, for one, totally believe people can change - but it takes real WORK, and more importantly a recognition that that work needs to be done in the first place and a willingness to do it. I don't think anybody is 'bad' or 'good'. He could end up being a good partner someday, but it would require both of you to stop blaming this vague 'it' for all your choices. You cannot keep saying things like 'we couldn't help ourselves' or 'it just happened'. Of course you could have helped yourselves, you just didn't want to. It didn't 'just happen', you both did it - consistently, for three years. If you keep passively absolving yourself of responsibility with these excuses - or more importantly, allow him to use them to make himself feel like less of a jerk - then yes, in time, you will be wearing his wife's shoes. Because he will have never addressed what allowed him to treat his ex-wife like this. In his head, he will just keep blaming 'fate' or circumstance or whatever (with your blessing), and guess what? One day, 'fate' will drop another woman in his lap who seems like she fits him so much better than you (who will have become 'the wife' by then) and then how can you be angry at him if he cheats on you?

He couldn't help himself. 'It' just happened. He tried to end it, but 'it' was too strong and he just kept getting pulled back in. He wanted to stop, but he was in 'it' too deep and so he had to sleep with her. It's not on him. Would you accept those excuses, if you were on the other side? If not, then you shouldn't accept them (or be willing to enable them) now - from him, OR yourself.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Eeejay

[ilikept]

9 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

My point was that common interests were not the reason for cheating. An emotionally empty, loveless marriage was. 

OK now the reason for the affair is his marriage.     

So it's not because of his character.  

And it's not because you have common interests.  

It's because of his marriage.     So we are caught up for now and his marriage is to blame to for your 3+ year affair.   

So now I am going to refer you back to my post on page 5 where I clearly stated that affairs NEED THE MARRIAGE in order to work.   Take a moment and go back and read my post again because you have now brought that concept to center stage.   

Your 3+ year relationship BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION NOW,   is due to his marriage.   

So where is that going to leave you now that his marriage is supposedly ending??????    

Now he doesn't have an emotionally empty, loveless marriage as his/your excuse.   Where is that going to leave you since you were the funtime chick that didn't put any demands or obligations or husbandly duties on him during your affair.    

What's going to happen now when you want a full time relationship with him and want him to pay your bills,  go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine when you have the squirts and need him to change your flat tire in the rain?  

Now that he is going to be single and is going to have all these other women available to him,  how are you going to stack up against them?   

[Eeejay]

Quote

Except my heart unfortunately 

Which means that you've already failed at 'guarding your heart'. I wish you would turn away from this mess and find someone else to build a relationship with, one that's not going to be built on a foundation of sneaking around, lies and heartache for multiple people (including you). You say you want your relationship with him to be built on honesty, openness and etc - hasn't that ship already sailed?

[ilikept]

19 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Except my heart unfortunately 

I thought you were guarding your heart.   

If you are guarding your heart,  then why is your heart to blame for this pickle you are finding yourself in?   

Is your heart guarded or is it running amok?    

[pepperbird2]

6 hours ago, mark clemson said:

This is not a shock. However, it shouldn't be an expectation either.

While there are those in the world who are "outraged" at the very notion of an affair, there are also plenty of people who are essentially ok with it. This is true of almost any "controversial" human activity - eating meat, drinking alcohol, taking drugs, divorcing, paying taxes (or cheating on them), etc, etc. All have plenty of people who accept these activities (and even encourage them) as well as plenty of quite sincere detractors.

It's easy to go through life assuming that others share our moral views (and particularly the depth of those views - "how bad" something is). However, this is an illusion/incorrect assumption.

If your MM's family had been the type who are horrified by affairs, they would have reacted differently. They're not, but this reaction is by no means a guarantee. If they recognize he was genuinely unhappy in his marriage, that would likely bolster that. It sounds like this BW tried to "play the tell everyone card" so to speak and it backfired on her. Presumably the intent was to increase pressure on him to end the affair, but again this "move" on her part was probably based on the assumptions I've just mentioned above. She assumed they'd be morally outraged and "on her side" - but - that's indeed an assumption....

I think the point about the family supporting him IF he chose to leave you (or to cheat on you) is probably correct as well. However that generally is going to apply to ANY "new" partner, whether the rel started as an affair or no. You're lucky however, that (in your case) at least they are not the types to reject you out of hand as an OW. That is not a guarantee with these things.

 This man's family is okay with cheating. It could even be that its pattern passed own form father to son. Hy the op thinks it will be any different with her is beyond me. This is why I really think it coudl be a good idea for the two of them to get some relationship counseling together. Find out where they both stand.

[S2B]

Your guilt is caused by not enforcing those morals and integrity you used to have! Now you tossed your whole belief system aside to have an affair. Yet you continue to try and justify the affair and your behavior.

you can’t justify it - you can’t take back what you know you did wrong.

that’s why you feel guilty. 
 

when you stop making loads of excuses for your bad behavior - you’ll feel less guilt. When you end the relationship you know has caused immense harm to so many people - that’s when you’ll start feeling less guilty as well.

but you won’t end it. 

[pepperbird2]

4 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

I get that which is why I’m having a hard time forgetting. I know what he was capable of and what he had done to his xW. That’s hard to stomach! I just mentioned that I’m trying to guard my heart. We have an out of state trip planned with his siblings the end of February relating to a mutual hobby of ours; this is something his ex hated and had no interest in. We share a lot of the same hobbies/interests and work in the same speciality. He’s told me on so many occasions that it’s nice to have someone he can have intelligent conversations with because of our so many shared interests. He’s also shared that he never had that with xW. I’m trying to stay optimistic. Id like to believe things are different and that “once a cheater, always a cheater” doesn’t always pertain, but I get it. It’s scary! Then again, falling in love with anyone with a cheating past is scary.

This is called triangulating. It's so common in affairs that it's almost beocme a joke. The two of you against his big, bad stupid wife.

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

I was raised with morals and integrity.

I'm sure he was to but as you and him both know they don't always stick.

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, BaileyB said:

No, he carried on for three years in an affair with “the woman he loves” and his “best friend” - hurting Kayla in the process - because he didn’t have the courage to live authentically and with integrity and ask for a divorce/tell his family he needed to make a different decision. Better to sneak around - introducing his affair partner to his family and friends, bringing her into his home to spend time with his wife and children, stealing moments at the office and weekends at the family cabin when his wife is out of town…

 

That sounds bad, yes. In his defense, he did talk to his parents in the beginning of our A about divorce. They told him -insert their last name— do not divorce. Between that, the guilt, alimony, properties, etc.. I didn’t push it. Ever. I never wanted to be the reason his marriage fell apart, although I acknowledge my part in it.

[stillafool]

How old are  his children?

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

"His wife is fifteen years older than me and five years older than MM."

The above is what you said in your original thread about this man.  

She is much older than MM. I don’t want to give TMI. I feel like anyone we know could figure out who they are as I’ve already shared way too much. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by kaylasummer
To remove TMI

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

"His wife is fifteen years older than me and five years older than MM."

The above is what you said in your original thread about this man.  

 

9 minutes ago, stillafool said:

How old are  his children?

I feel like I’ve already shared way too much to identify them should anyone see this. They’re in school, but I’d rather not say.

[pepperbird2]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

It's not just common interests. Our common interests and experiences is what created our bond. I know this sounds cliche, but he was finishing school out of state when they met, had too many drinks, and she (who’s a lot older than him.. I’m only saying that because she also knew better,.. she wanted kids but at the borderline age at that time and knew he was almost finished in school with a great career on the horizon and became pregnant).
 

She told me this after dday. His parents told him to “leave her; it will never work with the age gap”, but changed their stance when he told them she was expecting to “you need to marry her for that child.” She told me he never told her ILY in all the time they were together and adamantly wanted to know whether he told me. 

He told me all of this recently in one of our long conversations as well. He said he felt trapped, a young guy just finishing school with a women he barely knew, now expecting a child. He was never “in love” with her. Does that make it ok to cheat? Absolutely not, but it helps me to at least understand a bit. 

Awwww.....the poor widdle baby. He got trapped by the big bad wifey and now, he has no choice but to cheat. It's not his fault, really, What choice did he have? She kept him tied up in the basement, somehow bribed every lawyer in town so they wouldn't talk to him, made arrangements with the legal system so he woudl never see his kids again if they got divorced  and was even able to have every website that gives advice on ending marriage ethically taken down.
Of course he cheated. What choice did he have?🙄

If you want to have any hope in hell of making a future relationship work you have to stop sugar coating his actions and making excuses. Hold hid feet tot he fire-otherwise, you'll never be able to trust him, and you'll soon find yourself miserable
 

[stillafool]

13 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

That sounds bad, yes. In his defense, he did talk to his parents in the beginning of our A about divorce. They told him -insert their last name— do not divorce. Between that, the guilt, alimony, properties, etc.. I didn’t push it. Ever. I never wanted to be the reason his marriage fell apart, although I acknowledge my part in it.

Oh goodie, this is what you can expect from them when you get with him and he his OW is around his parents.  They will welcome her with open arms as long as it pleases him.

So instead of pushing him to divorce his poor wife you thought it would be better to just continue having sex with him behind her back.  Less stress on him.

[stillafool]

10 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

 

I feel like I’ve already shared way too much to identify them should anyone see this. They’re in school, but I’d rather not say.

Well if they are still in school that tells me when she had them it was during a time when other arrangements could have been made other than a shot gun wedding because of pregancy if he wanted it.  Those kids were born during a time of single mothers and abortion.  He didn't have to marry her, he wanted to and she is only 5 years older.  If that.

Edited January 24, 2022 by stillafool

[stillafool]

14 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

She is much older than MM. I don’t want to give TMI. I feel like anyone we know could figure out who they are as I’ve already shared way too much. 

Yeah,  okay.

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, ilikept said:

 

OK so now you are saying that common interests were NOT the reason you two were cheating and that what you said 3 posts ago is not applicable.    Because in two of the last 3 posts you made prior you said that your common interests was the reason and that is what you bonded over.  

I'm just making sure that I am caught up to date and that now we are to believe that it wasn't the common interests why you got together for and bonded over for a 3 year affair.  

We bonded over common interests but someone who’s happy and content in their marriage probably wouldn’t have “bonded with someone else over common interests”to begin with. 

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

We bonded over common interests but someone who’s happy and content in their marriage probably wouldn’t have “bonded with someone else over common interests”to begin with. 

Lot's of people, even same sex people, bond over common interests but they all don't start having sex because of common interests.

Edited January 25, 2022 by stillafool

[kaylasummer]

16 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Well if they are still in school that tells me when she had them it was during a time when other arrangements could have been made other than a shot gun wedding because of pregancy if he wanted it.  Those kids were born during a time of single mothers and abortion.  He didn't have to marry her, he wanted to and she is only 5 years older.  If that.

She herself told me abortion wasn’t an option. He was also moving back to his home state upon completing his program and would not have seen his child. Both he and his xW told me his parents said “you need to marry her”. Both he and his xW also told me he never said ILY and that he was never in love with her. This is probably cliche as well, but I actually felt bad for him for being in a long marriage with someone you’re not connected with or in love with. However, he should have left years ago if he was so miserable.