Dating MM as he goes through a divorce; can he be trusted after long term a?

[pepperbird2]

16 hours ago, vla1120 said:

Spot on! In my case, a friend called me frantic and said "If 'husband's name' calls you and asks about a laptop, tell him that you bought it for 'my husband's name' for Christmas and I was holding it for you!" Her husband called me 5 minutes later, asked me what I got my husband for Christmas. I told him "I don't know what's going on with you two, but I didn't get him a laptop. I'm here if either of you need to talk." Then, I got so angry that she had always projected that her life was picture perfect. Her marriage was perfect. Her kids were perfect. Everything was perfect. Yet, she bought a laptop in secret because she knew her husband had put a keylogger on her desktop and she didn't want to get caught talking to men on line. She wasn't a real friend and that was the end of our friendship. Real friends don't condone and help conceal affairs. They call their friends out on their crap. 

Real friends don't take their emotional skeletons into your closet just so they can feel better or cover their own behind. Sounds like this person was no friend to you.

[pepperbird2]

9 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

 

I’m pretty certain that our mutual friends had set up the encounter at their Christmas. They had been there for MM while he was staying with them after our NC. They told me a couple of months after NC that he was really struggling with our breakup and not doing well. At that time, I was completely heartbroken, but there was no way I was going back in to that drama.
 

 

This makes the situation even  worse. What do you think will happen when this (ahem) "wonderful man" you've hitched your wagon to decides he's not happy with you? Will your mutual  friends go behind your back too to help fix him up with his next OW?

this is ridiculous. you can't trust him, and can you trust his friends. The more you try and make this seem okay, the worse it looks. What you have right now is a guy who has friends and family who actively support his cheating. What on earth makes you think he'll be any different if he's with you and his eyes start to wander? No one is holding him accountable for his actions. In fact, they've taught him that it's okay to cheat, and he can count on their support.

Some men and women who had affairs will go on to never have another one. In my experience, these people face what they did and accept responsibility. They don't blame anyone else, and their family does not support their behaviour. Most importantly, they don't blame the betrayed spouse.

If you do decide to stay with this guy, I would highly recommend some heavy duty counselling.

[stillafool]

17 hours ago, vla1120 said:

Spot on! In my case, a friend called me frantic and said "If 'husband's name' calls you and asks about a laptop, tell him that you bought it for 'my husband's name' for Christmas and I was holding it for you!" Her husband called me 5 minutes later, asked me what I got my husband for Christmas. I told him "I don't know what's going on with you two, but I didn't get him a laptop. I'm here if either of you need to talk." Then, I got so angry that she had always projected that her life was picture perfect. Her marriage was perfect. Her kids were perfect. Everything was perfect. Yet, she bought a laptop in secret because she knew her husband had put a keylogger on her desktop and she didn't want to get caught talking to men on line. She wasn't a real friend and that was the end of our friendship. Real friends don't condone and help conceal affairs. They call their friends out on their crap. 

Yeah when I was single one of my married girlfriends asked me to tell her husband she spent the night at my house if he asked.  I told her I would not get involved and be party to her lying and cheating on her husband and if she wanted to cheat, please leave me the hell out of it.

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, pepperbird2 said:

I thought you said you weren't in the picture when the divorce was first brought up.
OP,  You are lying to yourself, and you're making excuses for him. This leads me to believe you don't really love "him". you love who you think he is.
 

I was in the picture when he first brought up divorce to his parents. They knew of our friendship, but he didn’t tell them about our A. My name wasn’t mentioned when he brought up divorcing. At that time they told him —insert their last name— do not divorce. He didn’t actually file until I wasn’t in the picture months in to NC.

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, pepperbird2 said:

This makes the situation even  worse. What do you think will happen when this (ahem) "wonderful man" you've hitched your wagon to decides he's not happy with you? Will your mutual  friends go behind your back too to help fix him up with his next OW?

this is ridiculous. you can't trust him, and can you trust his friends. The more you try and make this seem okay, the worse it looks. What you have right now is a guy who has friends and family who actively support his cheating. What on earth makes you think he'll be any different if he's with you and his eyes start to wander? No one is holding him accountable for his actions. In fact, they've taught him that it's okay to cheat, and he can count on their support.

Some men and women who had affairs will go on to never have another one. In my experience, these people face what they did and accept responsibility. They don't blame anyone else, and their family does not support their behaviour. Most importantly, they don't blame the betrayed spouse.

If you do decide to stay with this guy, I would highly recommend some heavy duty counselling.

I’m not blaming anyone. I only shared stories of how he met his xW, rushed in to things, were not compatible, and how he felt trapped because it helped me understand how he was feeling. It makes me angry that he didn’t divorce early on. He said that is his regret also. I don’t understand how someone could go out and cheat because they don’t have a connection with someone or because they feel trapped. Leave then! I know he had 101 reasons he felt he couldn’t, but that is why I struggle. I have a hard time understanding that.

I’ve also explained how his family would have absolutely not supported it until they were informed after dday. His friend, married my friend.. they knew of our friendship and we all did a lot together. However, they did not know of our A. They were actually very disappointed in him when they found out and told him he needed to do right, do his w a favor and divorce her. They were also upset with him when they say how it was affecting me.

Edited to add.. our friends did not support what he was doing until he filed and only because they knew me, knew my feelings for him, knew we were both struggling after NC, and thought we needed to be together. We supported them since day one through all of their trials/tribulations; they only had the best of intentions. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by kaylasummer

[kaylasummer]

Just now, kaylasummer said:

I’m not blaming anyone. I only shared stories of how he met his xW, rushed in to things, were not compatible, and how he felt trapped because it helped me understand how he was feeling. It makes me angry that he didn’t divorce early on. He said that is his regret also. I don’t understand how someone could go out and cheat because they don’t have a connection with someone or because they feel trapped. Leave then! I know he had 101 reasons he felt he couldn’t, but that is why I struggle. I have a hard time understanding that.

I’ve also explained how his family would have absolutely not supported it until they were informed after dday. His friend, married my friend.. they knew of our friendship and we all did a lot together. However, they did not know of our A. They were actually very disappointed in him when they found out and told him he needed to do right, do his w a favor and divorce her. They were also upset with him when they say how it was affecting me. Edited to add.. our friends did not support what he was doing until he filed and only because they knew me, knew my feelings for him, knew we were both struggling after NC, and thought we needed to be together. 

 

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, stillafool said:

Yeah when I was single one of my married girlfriends asked me to tell her husband she spent the night at my house if he asked.  I told her I would not get involved and be party to her lying and cheating on her husband and if she wanted to cheat, please leave me the hell out of it.

I’m pretty sure our friends felt the same. They were very upset when they found out late into it and told him he needed to do his W a favor and divorce her. They were also upset with how it was affecting me (they saw me breakdown crying when he had to leave early for home one night). They told him he needed to do the right thing. Dday happened shortly after, so I’m fairly certain they had something to do with somehow clueing her in. They didn’t abandon us because we had set them up and were there for them throughout, but definitely disappointed. 

[BaileyB]

25 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

His friend, married my friend.. they knew of our friendship and we all did a lot together. However, they did not know of our A.

What did they think you were doing together?

I’m quite sure that they suspected that something was going on. Most married men do not form a “friendship” with another woman and spend time together with another couple - 

Most married men don’t do this because a) it’s very inappropriate and b) most wives would have a problem with their husband spending time with another woman and “their” couple friends.

I understand why you feel the need to defend your friends and family as it relates to the idea that they supported your affair, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not being honest with yourself. You are setting yourself for real heartache because there are things you simply can’t accept here - 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by BaileyB

[kaylasummer]

8 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

What did they think you were doing together?

I’m quite sure that they suspected that something was going on. Most married men do not form a “friendship” with another woman and spend time together with another couple - 

Most married men don’t do this because a) it’s very inappropriate and b) most wives would have a problem with their husband spending time with another woman and “their” couple friends.

I understand why you feel the need to defend your friends and family as it relates to the idea that they supported your affair, but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not being honest with yourself. You are setting yourself for real heartache because there are things you simply can’t accept here - 

 

Yes they suspected and asked a couple of times and my answer was “no, he’s like a brother.” I did eventually open up to my friend way later on about feelings developing, but did not feel I could tell her about it becoming more until I couldn’t keep the secret any longer. 

I encouraged MM to invite his W out with us in the beginning because it really was just a friendship for a long time. Our friends met his W a few times. I even told him maybe a month after meeting him that he was “like a brother to me.” He was safe. Nothing would ever happen. I could not even fathom it ever becoming more.. that stuff just didn’t happen in my world!

[stillafool]

4 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

I encouraged MM to invite his W out with us in the beginning because it really was just a friendship for a long time. Our friends met his W a few times. I even told him maybe a month after meeting him that he was “like a brother to me.” He was safe. Nothing would ever happen. I could not even fathom it ever becoming more.. that stuff just didn’t happen in my world!

But you knew you had romantic feelings towards him even if you felt like nothing would happen.  The encouraging MM to invite his W out with you guys is laughable.  Most people invite them both as a couple.  You are acting like you and MM were the couple and just happened to invite her along with you and your "friends".  If "stuff" like this didn't happen in "my world" you wouldn't be involved in an affair.  Please drop the innocent act.

[S2B]

You keep defending so much inappropriate behavior.

when you marry him and he defends more of his bad behavior - you’ll understand just how inappropriate and hurtful what he does - can feel like.

he participated in behavior that was hurtful to his wife and marriage - yes, he will participate that way too - when you marry him. It’s what he does - it’s who he is. 

[BaileyB]

25 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Yes they suspected and asked a couple of times and my answer was “no, he’s like a brother.” I did eventually open up to my friend way later on about feelings developing, but did not feel I could tell her about it becoming more until I couldn’t keep the secret any longer. 

I encouraged MM to invite his W out with us in the beginning because it really was just a friendship for a long time. Our friends met his W a few times. I even told him maybe a month after meeting him that he was “like a brother to me.” He was safe. Nothing would ever happen.

He was not safe. Married men don’t form close friendships with women who are not their wives. They don’t spend time with women outside of work who are not their wives. They do not hang out as “couples” with friends with women who are not their wife. 

Indeed, it is laughable that you would suggest that he should invite his wife to hang out with you and your “couple” friends. As you have previously stated, his wife was suspicious of the two of you and made her suspicions known to you - 

If you are truly honest with yourself Kayla, you will appreciate that what I’m saying is very true. The only person who didn’t suspect that anything inappropriate was happening with the two of you was apparently - you! 

If my friend says to me “nothing is happening, he is like a brother to me” and continues to spend time with the man in social situations without his wife present - I’m going to assume that something is going on… 

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I’m pretty sure our friends felt the same. They were very upset when they found out late into it and told him he needed to do his W a favor and divorce her. They were also upset with how it was affecting me (they saw me breakdown crying when he had to leave early for home one night). They told him he needed to do the right thing. Dday happened shortly after, so I’m fairly certain they had something to do with somehow clueing her in.

 

See, IMO ACTUAL real friends don't inflict their own morality on you by pulling stuff like this. If they can't stand to know, they should "recuse themselves" from continuing to be your friend. This would be like vegan "friends" helping you plan your Thanksgiving dinner - SANS turkey of course, because "oh you can't have THAT." Real helpful.

These folks apparently intervened in accordance with their own moral views - and what's the result? BW going through a Dday, acrimony and distress, BW telling family to humiliate and manipulate WH, family not caring because BW is problematic, WH starting to get real serious about divorcing.

Yeah, they really did a LOT of good there.

In their own minds perhaps they feel they "did what's right" but IMO they should have just stayed out of the situation. They didn't REALLY help anything by outing the affair, except possibly speeding up the divorce. If anything they (presumably unintentionally I think) helped YOU, as the BH is apparently now more serious about leaving and looking to you for a soft landing.

People don't go around with signs on them explaining the severity of their moral views/issues, so I suppose it's more common to find stuff like this out after you've "crossed a line" for them. So, if you're in an affair it's probably wise to "feel out" friends WRT how strong their views are before confiding in them. If you REALLY need to spill your guts to someone there's always a counselor.

At any rate "loose lips sinks ships" as they say, and the BW/WH's marriage has now taken a torpedo. If the MM was successfully hiding the affair, then it sounds like the ones who actually fired it were these "friends" of yours. C'est la vie...

Edited January 31, 2022 by mark clemson

[Daliah]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I’m not blaming anyone. I only shared stories of how he met his xW, rushed in to things, were not compatible, and how he felt trapped because it helped me understand how he was feeling. It makes me angry that he didn’t divorce early on. He said that is his regret also. I don’t understand how someone could go out and cheat because they don’t have a connection with someone or because they feel trapped. Leave then! I know he had 101 reasons he felt he couldn’t, but that is why I struggle. I have a hard time understanding that.

I’ve also explained how his family would have absolutely not supported it until they were informed after dday. His friend, married my friend.. they knew of our friendship and we all did a lot together. However, they did not know of our A. They were actually very disappointed in him when they found out and told him he needed to do right, do his w a favor and divorce her. They were also upset with him when they say how it was affecting me.

Edited to add.. our friends did not support what he was doing until he filed and only because they knew me, knew my feelings for him, knew we were both struggling after NC, and thought we needed to be together. We supported them since day one through all of their trials/tribulations; they only had the best of intentions. 

It’s quite peculiar that there are ‘friends’ who don’t consider it odd that they hang out with a man WITHOUT his wife, and another woman in her place??

[S2B]

No matter how much you want to justify this being a “special relationship” - you will have that nagging feeling something is wrong every single time he spends time with any one but you.

you stay with him = you forfeit your peace of mind.

[vla1120]

I'm still going to go back to your original question - can you trust this man - and my answer is a resounding "No!" 

Only time will tell, but you should be concerned about how things played out with you, and whether he is capable of "befriending" another woman in his future. I'm sure they'll be able to convince others that they are more like brother and sister. You must ask yourself, if/when that happens will his family and your mutual friends defend him? Protect him? Cover for him? You will always wonder. Also, you mentioned running into each other at a party. He didn't seek you out. I still think you should be concerned that, once the divorce is completely over and he comes to the realization that he is "free" and can pursue whatever with whomever he pleases, he might find himself putting a profile on a dating website and leaving you behind - like my husband did with his AP at the end of our marriage. Finally, given the level of drama and heartache surrounding your relationship thus far with him, I would cut and run and try to find a peaceful existence with someone I trusted. 

[kaylasummer]

1 hour ago, Daliah said:

It’s quite peculiar that there are ‘friends’ who don’t consider it odd that they hang out with a man WITHOUT his wife, and another woman in her place??

We had set the two of them up when his friend was going through a divorce; it was actually my idea when he was telling me about his friends struggles. We were with the night they met. So yes, in hindsight, we were probably in lala land, justifying our behavior.. MM was hanging out with his friend and I was hanging out with mine even tho it was usually the four of us. In hindsight, I see that and how awful we probably looked to others. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by kaylasummer

[Starswillshine]

To piggyback off of @vla1120 post.... 

You want to know if you can trust him; the answer simply is no, not at this time. This thread has given us ample reasons why. And the number one reason that I see is that you do not even realize how/why we believe this. Everyone is trying to get you to realize it. This isn't to say that he could not be a safe partner, but it will take a lot of self work on both of your parts. Something that has not happened as evident by your justifications and excuses presented here. 

He was married and made a commitment to someone. He was not unhappy enough to break that commitment, but instead, he carried on an affair. You want someone who will take a commitment extremely seriously, so when unhappy times happen, you know he will work towards the relationship and not outside of it as he has shown to do in the past with you. 

You both have severe boundary issues. For you specifically, you knew he was married. You allowed yourself to develop feelings (and I do believe you can stop yourself from developing feelings that go beyond a little crush if you are proactive) for someone who was off limits. You allowed yourself to be involved in a very inappropriate relationship with both a married man and your boss. On the flip side, besides all the wrongs of being a married man, he allowed himself to be involved with a subordinate which opened himself up to many other issues besides just martial. In so many ways, you, he, friends, and families have eroded boundaries and values. If these things are not fixed, this relationship will be a dumpster fire. 

But here you are, and I am certain, you will forge forward. My advice to you, is for each of you to do the work individually to develop better boundaries, better self worth, better control, etc before you pursue any larger commitment. 

Again, best of luck with this! I really do hope for happiness for you. Whatever that may mean. 

[S2B]

Do you see any of the posts cautioning you?

or do you just intend to keep repeating the same excuses over and over without acknowledging the folks telling you he can’t be trusted?

[6ix]

This thread has been locked because the original topic has been thoroughly answered and the responses are no longer productive.