Dating MM as he goes through a divorce; can he be trusted after long term a?

[ExpatInItaly]

Having mutual hobbies and common interests is not what keeps someone faithful. 

Having integrity is. 

Which does this man lack? 

Oh, right. 

[BaileyB]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I filed during our friendship as it started turning to an EA. Nothing physical happened until mine was final. 

But Kayla - you slept with another woman’s husband. I’m assuming that you slept with him - in her home (the cottage). You spent time with her children. 

You can’t claim innocence and say - “We were just friends, I thought he was safe, nothing happened until I was divorced…”

You engaged in what was a very inappropriate FRIENDSHIP with a married man that eventually became physical and broke all kinds of appropriate boundaries -  YOU made that decision, you hurt another woman and her children. I don’t mean to be blunt, but I don’t think you have even begin to really acknowledge that - 

And now, you are so wrapped up in the fantasy - you tell your story like it is a fairytale romance… we slow danced and I just knew he was the one… we started to spend more time together.. and slowly the love came… his family accepted me… his children liked me… I didn’t think it would come together but then, it was a magical evening when he came back into my life… we grew up in the same community and we know each others’s family… he married a woman who was not the right woman for him… he tried to make it work but the expectations his family placed on him were just too much… now, it’s time to right this wrong… his family and our friends are just so happy for him (us)…

I don’t begrudge your happiness, I’m concerned that you are so caught up in the fairytale romance that you don’t really have any appreciation for the pain that has been caused here. It’s just - sunshine and rainbows - for you, for this man, for his family. It is ironic that you are so concerned that you will be hurt - in the very same way that YOU contributed to hurting another woman. And somehow, you explain it away because they were never meant to be together, his family didn’t like her, you have the same interests as this man, and his family likes you more. 

This man and his family are not to be trusted, that is the unanimous message here. Be very careful, lest you fall out of favour and find yourself replaced as the woman who had the low morals to have an extramarital affair with the favorite son and break up his family. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I filed during our friendship as it started turning to an EA. Nothing physical happened until mine was final. 

Yes but you said MM was the one who convinced you that your husband wasn't right for you and hand held you while you went throught the divorce.  You were already in and EA.

[BaileyB]

Kayla, I have a family friend (my father’s best friend). He is also a physician, very charismatic and kind man, well respected in the community.

He married young and they had children together. But, they grew apart over time such that they were not well matched in the end. 

He cheated on her once - his affair partner’s husband divorced her and broke apart their family. MM’s marriage stayed together. He stayed because his wife didn’t want a divorce, she wanted their family to stay together. And, I believe so did he - Interestingly, his wife made a HUGE sacrifice for his career - but it wasn’t enough - 

He cheated again, and that ended the marriage. His one daughter has healed their relationship but not without a lot of pain. And now, she holds her dad at arms length because she has seen this side of him. 

He has now found another woman and by all accounts, they have a happy and committed relationship. I have fond memories of the friendship our families shared and don’t begrudge him his happiness but I don’t respect him the way that I did when I was younger. I thought he was a man of character and integrity, but he is not. He is a brilliant man, professional, well respected, charismatic, kind, devoted father and grandfather but also - a very selfish man who has hurt the people he loves more than anyone else by his actions - not only once, but twice (that I know about). As you say, these things can not be taken back. They are a part of who we now know him to be. It’s hard to forget that. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

33 minutes ago, S2B said:

It mainly indicates they will support bad behavior no matter what he does.

Engaging in the affair with him was supporting his bad behavior.

[kaylasummer]

27 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

YOU made that decision, you hurt another woman and her children. I don’t mean to be blunt, but I don’t think you have even begin to really acknowledge that - 

I acknowledge that. I was raised with morals and integrity. I’ve felt extreme guilt throughout this entire thing. I honestly did not think anything physical would ever happen. We were such close friends that I had spent the night with him on multiple occasions during our friendship as we were probably crossing the line to an EA. During that time, he’d tuck me in on his couch and go to his room. Nothing physical. His W was even there a couple of times.

I overheard other guys asking him about me as word got out about my divorce. He’d tell them “she’s not like other girls; I have a lot of respect for her, so leave her alone”. He was there for me as a friend. I even overheard a couple of guys on separate occasions ask him if there was something going on with us (MM and I) and his response was the same. He was always so protective and always had so much respect for me throughout my D. His “respect”, along with our close bond and friendship is what got to my heart. Our first dance was when we were all out with our mutual friends. He danced with my friend and asked me to after. We were all having fun; I thought it was all innocent until we danced. That’s when I knew there were intense feelings and that we crossed the line. We talked after that and agreed there were feelings but nothing could happen. That’s where we should have ended it!! 

However, by that point, we were in too deep. He said I was his best friend and vice versa. Our first time was after hours at work, just the two of us there, it just happened.
 

I think most on this site can relate to “how did I get myself in to this?” or “it just happened” and feelings of guilt. I felt SO MUCH guilt. We agreed that was it. He did feel guilt after that and bought his W flowers. However, we could not stay away from each other. I ended it so many times because of the guilt. I was not set out to be an OW! It absolutely killed me.. the roller coaster of emotions. Walking away from him after dday was the most gut wrenching excruciating pain I’ve ever experienced but I did it because of the guilt.
 

There’s been non stop guilt. I thought about messaging his xW during the 6 months of NC to apologize so many times, but never sent. I have acknowledged my part in the demise of his marriage… he told me it was over long before he even met me anyway, but that is something I have to live with!

[ilikept]

2 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

I get that which is why I’m having a hard time forgetting. I know what he was capable of and what he had done to his xW. That’s hard to stomach! I just mentioned that I’m trying to guard my heart. We have an out of state trip planned with his siblings the end of February relating to a mutual hobby of ours; this is something his ex hated and had no interest in. We share a lot of the same hobbies/interests and work in the same speciality. He’s told me on so many occasions that it’s nice to have someone he can have intelligent conversations with because of our so many shared interests. He’s also shared that he never had that with xW. I’m trying to stay optimistic. Id like to believe things are different and that “once a cheater, always a cheater” doesn’t always pertain, but I get it. It’s scary! Then again, falling in love with anyone with a cheating past is scary.

You're looking at this that the cause of his cheating was because he and his wife did not share a particular hobby and that they did not have the particular topic of conversation that you and he had.  

If you look at it from that perspective as to why he had a 3 year affair with you,  then that is even more damming because NO couple shares EVERY single interest and every single hobby and or mutually indulges in every single conversational topic that they each find completely equally interesting.  

By YOUR logic and argument,  if he cheats due to having some shared hobby or interest with another chick,   then he will cheat if there is some conversational point or some interest or hobby that you do not share that some other woman out there also has.  

By your own logic, let's say he develops an interest in pickleball at some point but you have no interest in joining a pickleball league that plays every Tues and Thurs evening,  then by your own logic he will start porking some gal on the pickleball league.  

If as a physician he develops a personal and professional interest in Non Hodgkins Lymphoma and starts to pursue further training and expertise in NHL and you don't have much interest in comprehensive discussions on NHL then again,  by your own logic he will get with some other gal on the NHL committee.   

So you have two ways to look at this.    Since he has a history of getting with a variety chicks while married,  you can either look at it as this is part of his character and persona and just simply what he does regardless of circumstances.  

Or you can say that he gets with chicks that he shares a an interest with that his official partner isn't into.    

If you are going to believe it's the latter,  can you guarantee that you will always share and participate in every single one of his interests for the next 30 years?

[BaileyB]

We have very different definitions of “friendship” Kayla.

27 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

However, by that point, we were in too deep. He said I was his best friend and vice versa.

No, that was the moment where you enforce a boundary. If he respected you, if he respected his wife, this would be the moment where you both took a big step back and said “stop.” 

But, you told yourself “you were in too deep” which are just words to excuse a very poor decision. “We could not stay away from each other” - are just words to absolve yourself from the responsibility to make a different decision and put a stop to this before it went further (before it became even more inappropriate than it already was). 

27 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Our first dance was when we were all out with our mutual friends. He danced with my friend and asked me to after. We were all having fun; I thought it was all innocent until we danced. That’s when I knew there were intense feelings and that we crossed the line. 

However, by that point, we were in too deep. He said I was his best friend and vice versa. Our first time was after hours at work, just the two of us there, it just happened.

And so the fairytale romance begins…

It didn’t just happen Kayla. There was attraction between you - so much that others could see you behaving inappropriately and asked about it - and you made the decision to have sex with another woman’s husband at his office after work one day. 

I don’t mean to be harsh, but you have this story that you tell yourself and others - a love story for the ages, it just happened, you tried but you simply couldn’t resist…

Regardless, he’s yours now for better or for worse. I hope one day, when you are at home raising his children, you don’t hear another woman say - “It just happened. I didn’t mean for this to happen. We were unable to resist.” 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BaileyB

[ilikept]

If he truly is getting a divorce and isn't just blowing smoke up your backside to keep you coming back,  then the reality is you are two, single, consenting adults and you can do whatever you want.   

But let's flip this around a bit and say that a guy was writing in here saying he has been hooking up with married gal that had a long standing history of cheating and getting with multiple guys during the entire course of their marriage.        In fact, lets say this is your brother that has been involved with this gal.   

And let's say he has ever excuse in the book on why she was cheating on her husband and he is taking the assumption that she is somehow going to transform into a different person now that she is with him because they have a common hobby and have had some conversations that she didn't have with her husband.  

What would you advise him?     Would you advise him to marry her and plant babies in her?   Would you advise him to put her name on all of his financial accounts and buy a house and take out a mortgage with her?   Would you advise him to buy cars with her and put her name on the titles and registrations with him?     Would you say that she is a good candidate for a traditional, monogamous relationship and marriage?   

Would you advise him to invest his heart and his money and resources and credit rating into?  

Would you tell him that she may have been a good funtime girl with but not for an actual relationship?

[kaylasummer]

6 minutes ago, ilikept said:

You're looking at this that the cause of his cheating was because he and his wife did not share a particular hobby and that they did not have the particular topic of conversation that you and he had.  

If you look at it from that perspective as to why he had a 3 year affair with you,  then that is even more damming because NO couple shares EVERY single interest and every single hobby and or mutually indulges in every single conversational topic that they each find completely equally interesting.  

By YOUR logic and argument,  if he cheats due to having some shared hobby or interest with another chick,   then he will cheat if there is some conversational point or some interest or hobby that you do not share that some other woman out there also has.  

By your own logic, let's say he develops an interest in pickleball at some point but you have no interest in joining a pickleball league that plays every Tues and Thurs evening,  then by your own logic he will start porking some gal on the pickleball league.  

If as a physician he develops a personal and professional interest in Non Hodgkins Lymphoma and starts to pursue further training and expertise in NHL and you don't have much interest in comprehensive discussions on NHL then again,  by your own logic he will get with some other gal on the NHL committee.   

So you have two ways to look at this.    Since he has a history of getting with a variety chicks while married,  you can either look at it as this is part of his character and persona and just simply what he does regardless of circumstances.  

Or you can say that he gets with chicks that he shares a an interest with that his official partner isn't into.    

If you are going to believe it's the latter,  can you guarantee that you will always share and participate in every single one of his interests for the next 30 years?

It's not just common interests. Our common interests and experiences is what created our bond. I know this sounds cliche, but he was finishing school out of state when they met, had too many drinks, and she (who’s a lot older than him.. I’m only saying that because she also knew better,.. she wanted kids but at the borderline age at that time and knew he was almost finished in school with a great career on the horizon and became pregnant).
 

She told me this after dday. His parents told him to “leave her; it will never work with the age gap”, but changed their stance when he told them she was expecting to “you need to marry her for that child.” She told me he never told her ILY in all the time they were together and adamantly wanted to know whether he told me. 

He told me all of this recently in one of our long conversations as well. He said he felt trapped, a young guy just finishing school with a women he barely knew, now expecting a child. He was never “in love” with her. Does that make it ok to cheat? Absolutely not, but it helps me to at least understand a bit. 

[ilikept]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

It's not just common interests. Our common interests and experiences is what created our bond. I know this sounds cliche, but he was finishing school out of state when they met, had too many drinks, and she (who’s a lot older than him.. I’m only saying that because she also knew better,.. she wanted kids but at the borderline age at that time and knew he was almost finished in school with a great career on the horizon and became pregnant).
 

She told me this after dday. His parents told him to “leave her; it will never work with the age gap”, but changed their stance when he told them she was expecting to “you need to marry her for that child.” She told me he never told her ILY in all the time they were together and adamantly wanted to know whether he told me. 

He told me all of this recently in one of our long conversations as well. He said he felt trapped, a young guy just finishing school with a women he barely knew, now expecting a child. He was never “in love” with her. Does that make it ok to cheat? Absolutely not, but it helps me to at least understand a bit. 

 

And what does that have to do with what I said???

I said that by your logic,   if he has a shared interest with another woman that his partner does not share or participate in,  then he has a sexual relationship with that other woman.   

So using your own logic,  can you guarantee that you will share in every single one of his interests and hobbies and conversational points for the next 30-40+ years??

[stillafool]

40 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

he told me it was over long before he even met me anyway, but that is something I have to live with!

So he told you it was over with before he met you but still wouldn't/hasn't divorced after he met the love of his life/best friend which is you.  Even though he helped you to divorce your husband because he said he wasn't good for you he still did not divorce his wife, the one who "it was over with long before he met you".  Instead he let the 'love of his life/you' convince him to go back with the one "it was over with".  Yeah, okay.  This sounds just like all the rest of the cheating MM garbage they feed to OW.  Sorry Kayla but this just doesn't add up.  And, he still doesn't have his divorce papers, right?

[stillafool]

12 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

and she (who’s a lot older than him.. I’m only saying that because she also knew better,..

5 years is not that much older.  A lot of couples have a 5 year age difference.  They are of the same generation.

[ilikept]

7 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

 Our common interests and experiences is what created our bond.

And he created bonds with all these other women over common interests too.   

He has sex with other women when there is a common interest.   

That common interest could be chocolate chip cookies,   saving baby seals,  feeding the poor in Uganda, golf,  vollyball,  whatever.    Do you see what I'm getting at.   

many posters here have said that this is his character and persona.   And you said,  "no,  we had common interests and conversations that his wife did not share."   And you said that you bonded over these common interests.  

So I am just pointing out that he has shared interests with and bonded with and developed sexual relationships with multiple women over the course of his marriage.    

[kaylasummer]

5 minutes ago, ilikept said:

 

And what does that have to do with what I said???

I said that by your logic,   if he has a shared interest with another woman that his partner does not share or participate in,  then he has a sexual relationship with that other woman.   

So using your own logic,  can you guarantee that you will share in every single one of his interests and hobbies and conversational points for the next 30-40+ years??

My point was that common interests were not the reason for cheating. An emotionally empty, loveless marriage was. I would sure hope he doesn’t go out and cheat with anyone who shared a hobby with him. I don’t expect that we’ll always share everything in common, but I hope we have a better open honest relationship built on friendship first, love, and respect. 

[kaylasummer]

5 minutes ago, stillafool said:

5 years is not that much older.  A lot of couples have a 5 year age difference.  They are of the same generation.

She’s a lot more than 5 years older than him (typo if I had 5) It is closer to 15.

[kaylasummer]

2 hours ago, S2B said:

You’ve convinced yourself you’re in too far… that’s an illusion.

if I can untangle myself from a 27 year marriage with kids - you can EASILY untangle YOURSELF from a serial cheater whom you’ve never married! 

stop kidding yourself! You can walk away IF you want to/ decide to!

there is NOTHING making you stay!

Except my heart unfortunately 

[ilikept]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

My point was that common interests were not the reason for cheating.  

 

OK so now you are saying that common interests were NOT the reason you two were cheating and that what you said 3 posts ago is not applicable.    Because in two of the last 3 posts you made prior you said that your common interests was the reason and that is what you bonded over.  

I'm just making sure that I am caught up to date and that now we are to believe that it wasn't the common interests why you got together for and bonded over for a 3 year affair.  

[BaileyB]

14 minutes ago, stillafool said:

So he told you it was over with before he met you but still wouldn't/hasn't divorced after he met the love of his life/best friend which is you.  Even though he helped you to divorce your husband because he said he wasn't good for you he still did not divorce his wife, the one who "it was over with long before he met you".  Instead he let the 'love of his life/you' convince him to go back with the one "it was over with". 

No, he carried on for three years in an affair with “the woman he loves” and his “best friend” - hurting Kayla in the process - because he didn’t have the courage to live authentically and with integrity and ask for a divorce/tell his family he needed to make a different decision. Better to sneak around - introducing his affair partner to his family and friends, bringing her into his home to spend time with his wife and children, stealing moments at the office and weekends at the family cabin when his wife is out of town…

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

2 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

She’s a lot more than 5 years older than him (typo if I had 5) It is closer to 15.

"His wife is fifteen years older than me and five years older than MM."

The above is what you said in your original thread about this man.  

[stillafool]

1 minute ago, BaileyB said:

No, he carried on for three years in an affair with “the woman he loves” and his “best friend” - hurting Kayla in the process - because he didn’t have the courage to live authentically with integrity and ask for a divorce/tell his family he needed to make a different decision. Better to sneak around - introducing his affair partner to his family and friends, bringing her into his home to spend time with his wife and children, stealing moments at the office and weekends at the family cabin when his wife is out of town…

 

Yeah all while his wife was nice enough to let him support his "best friend" not knowing what was going on behind her back and under her roof.

[Eeejay]

Kayla, gently - your language shows your lack of accountability, and (more dangerously) how little accountability you expect from him. The way you talk makes it sound like you both are a victim of this nebulous 'it'. 'It' started up again. We couldn't stop 'it'. We were in 'it' too deep. 'I felt extreme guilt' - okay, but so what? It didn't change anything. It didn't stop you from making these choices over three years. You say you 'ended it so many times' - that statement is contradictory. You never ended it. It's still going on.

There is no IT. There is no 'thing' that forced you two to do what you did.

I, for one, totally believe people can change - but it takes real WORK, and more importantly a recognition that that work needs to be done in the first place and a willingness to do it. I don't think anybody is 'bad' or 'good'. He could end up being a good partner someday, but it would require both of you to stop blaming this vague 'it' for all your choices. You cannot keep saying things like 'we couldn't help ourselves' or 'it just happened'. Of course you could have helped yourselves, you just didn't want to. It didn't 'just happen', you both did it - consistently, for three years. If you keep passively absolving yourself of responsibility with these excuses - or more importantly, allow him to use them to make himself feel like less of a jerk - then yes, in time, you will be wearing his wife's shoes. Because he will have never addressed what allowed him to treat his ex-wife like this. In his head, he will just keep blaming 'fate' or circumstance or whatever (with your blessing), and guess what? One day, 'fate' will drop another woman in his lap who seems like she fits him so much better than you (who will have become 'the wife' by then) and then how can you be angry at him if he cheats on you?

He couldn't help himself. 'It' just happened. He tried to end it, but 'it' was too strong and he just kept getting pulled back in. He wanted to stop, but he was in 'it' too deep and so he had to sleep with her. It's not on him. Would you accept those excuses, if you were on the other side? If not, then you shouldn't accept them (or be willing to enable them) now - from him, OR yourself.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Eeejay

[ilikept]

9 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

My point was that common interests were not the reason for cheating. An emotionally empty, loveless marriage was. 

OK now the reason for the affair is his marriage.     

So it's not because of his character.  

And it's not because you have common interests.  

It's because of his marriage.     So we are caught up for now and his marriage is to blame to for your 3+ year affair.   

So now I am going to refer you back to my post on page 5 where I clearly stated that affairs NEED THE MARRIAGE in order to work.   Take a moment and go back and read my post again because you have now brought that concept to center stage.   

Your 3+ year relationship BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION NOW,   is due to his marriage.   

So where is that going to leave you now that his marriage is supposedly ending??????    

Now he doesn't have an emotionally empty, loveless marriage as his/your excuse.   Where is that going to leave you since you were the funtime chick that didn't put any demands or obligations or husbandly duties on him during your affair.    

What's going to happen now when you want a full time relationship with him and want him to pay your bills,  go out into the night to get you diarrhea medicine when you have the squirts and need him to change your flat tire in the rain?  

Now that he is going to be single and is going to have all these other women available to him,  how are you going to stack up against them?   

[Eeejay]

Quote

Except my heart unfortunately 

Which means that you've already failed at 'guarding your heart'. I wish you would turn away from this mess and find someone else to build a relationship with, one that's not going to be built on a foundation of sneaking around, lies and heartache for multiple people (including you). You say you want your relationship with him to be built on honesty, openness and etc - hasn't that ship already sailed?

[ilikept]

19 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

Except my heart unfortunately 

I thought you were guarding your heart.   

If you are guarding your heart,  then why is your heart to blame for this pickle you are finding yourself in?   

Is your heart guarded or is it running amok?