Dating MM as he goes through a divorce; can he be trusted after long term a?

[Crazelnut]

And please stop with this "I'm in too deep" nonsense. You are a grown woman with agency. You alone control your actions. Not destiny. Not God. Not the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the sky. You. And it is in your own best interest to walk away from the mess YOU have created and live a life of integrity. You are not some leaf adrift on a river; you can swim to the other side. 

Instead, you *choose* every day to be with a serial cheater whose family will support him and villify you when he takes up with the next mistress. You do this even though you know deep down he will lie to you and cheat on you eventually. Why? Why are you not willing to finally accept a bit of short term pain to save yourself years of mistrust, anxiety, and eventual pain?

[stillafool]

13 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

You’re right. I talked to him about the guilt and tried to walk away so many times. Not only the guilt but the roller coaster of emotions that I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. Yet, I still participated in the A. In hindsight, it actually disgusts me that I could do such a thing and that he could as well. I’m not proud of either of our behavior. That’s not who I am and not something I could ever participate in again. I know better now; If I could go back and make things better, I would. 

And this is usually the way the MM feels who do go on and get a divorce.  Disgusted by their past behavior so they go on to another woman leaving the OW behind because they don't want to be reminded of what caused their divorce.  Some MM divorce and go with OW but they usually do it within the first year or less of the affair.

[Ha-ha]

11 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

guess I came here hoping to hear long term success stories to help ease my mind that “once a cheater, always a cheater” doesn’t always pertain, that there is hope for relationships that start as affairs. I’ve gotten a lot of MM bashing and some doses of reality. Its been eye opening and I appreciate it all, whether good or bad. 

Some posters here have this experience and shared their stories and yes, they raise red flags over your MM. Not sure what else to say because no one can ease your mind but yourself.
He's the love of your life. You choose to go ahead with this relationship despite your own doubts and our warnings here. Then please, own your choice with all of its associated risks. You don’t have to convince us.  You need to convince yourself.  Own your choice. 
 

[kaylasummer]

I see it differently. He is not the arrogant doctor you’re probably all envisioning. He’s a very humble down to earth guy. His friends and family who knew of the A supported us because they’ve told me they see our connection and his smile again.
 

They knew how he ended up with his xW; they knew he wasn’t happy and that he never loved her. They knew other things as well and not one liked her. For one, she was in a 10+ year relationship, living with someone up until the weekend she met him, someone who was into drugs and going to jail (he found out later on). They’ve often questioned (as did MM) whether the oldest is his as there is zero resemblance, she became pregnant the weekend they met, they married shortly after, and dates were off. 
 

I get it, no excuse to cheat. However, I understand it a bit more because I know their story. He didn’t respect her (there’s so much more regarding this I can’t share-TMI). He helped get her out of the trailer park (she’s actually said this). His friends/family believe he was her meal ticket; they’ve never liked her. She spent his money as fast as he made it with new vehicles, jewelry, etc. I do almost feel bad for him… but I get it… he made his bed and should have divorced earlier on!

Edited January 25, 2022 by kaylasummer
Removed TMI

[Wiseman2]

15 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

He helped get her out of the trailer park (she’s actually said this).  She spent his money as fast as he made it with new vehicles, jewelry, etc. I do almost feel bad for him

Why does he pick poor quality women?

[kaylasummer]

2 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why does he pick poor quality women?

 I’m not saying she’s poor quality (definitely not now or over the last 17+ years), but explaining how they met to defend him a bit (there’s been a lot of MM bashing here). He met her while out celebrating after a few drinks. She became pregnant that weekend. I don’t think he “chose” her, but did right (or felt he did right at that time) by marrying her.

[Ha-ha]

Just now, kaylasummer said:

 I’m not saying she’s poor quality (definitely not now or over the last 17+ years), but explaining how they met to defend him a bit (there’s been a lot of MM bashing here). He met her while out celebrating after a few drinks. She became pregnant that weekend. I don’t think he “chose” her, but did right (or felt he did right at that time) by marrying her.

I think the operative word there was 'does'…

[kaylasummer]

3 minutes ago, Berlin said:

I think the operative word there was 'does'…

I didn’t come here to get judged. I believe a lot of good people get themselves in to situations that they never thought possible.

[BaileyB]

38 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

However, I understand it a bit more because I know their story.

You excuse it a bit more because you know their story. You have bought their story. 

My partner was married to a woman and had a child with a woman who had serious mental health issues. She was not a particularly nice woman and none of his family/friends liked her and he didn’t respect her - but he did not cheat on her. He stayed, he tried to make his marriage work for many years until it became untenable and he filed for divorce. He, like your married man, had every reason to cheat - but as he didn’t cheat because he is not a cheater. 

The fact of the matter is - your married man made the decision to marry this woman, he made the decision to have children with this woman, and he stayed in his marriage for many years (went back to his marriage, when your relationship ended). For no other reason, the fact that she is his wife and and mother of his children, he needed to treat her with respect. 

38 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

His friends/family believe he was her meal ticket; they’ve never liked her.

And yet, they told him to marry her and never divorce this woman. 

Before you speak badly if the woman, consider the fact that she was the person who devoted herself to her family while her husband was out pursuing other women.

It also seems to me like she has treated you and your MM with more respect since d-day than you treated her during your affair. After an initial expression of anger, she has handled herself with a fair amount of restraint and dignity. The fact that she could even speak to you and that she has made the decision to divorce her cheating husband shows her character - 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by BaileyB

[stillafool]

Again, poor him.  He marries a woman that:

1-He's in love with you who his family is fine with him having an affair with and supports it.  (So why wouldn't you both go to his wife and tell her the truth?)

2-They convinced him to marry the woman he got pregnant even though they knew he wasn't happy or loved her,  never getting a paternity test; but questions child's paternity because he doesn't look like him.  Now the family supports him having a mistress and being a cheater to the wife they asked him to marry.

3-None of his family likes his wife because she's 5, 10, 15, 25, 50 years older than him and lived in a trailer park (basically a family that thinks their better than others. Yuk)

I don't understand why if she got pregnant the weekend they met he rushed to marry her.  He must have talked to his parents so why weren't they at least smart enough to find out if the baby was actually his before insisting he marry a woman he didn't love?  It's somewhat normal for the 1st born son to look like his mom and the 1st born daughter to look like her dad.  If they were married it was their money she was spending, not his.  Unless you lived with them you don't know everything that was going on between them no matter what he told you.  A lot of what you say here just doesn't add up.

 

[kaylasummer]

3 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

You excuse it a bit more because you know their story. You have bought their story. 

If she was in a toxic relationship before she met this man and there have always been questions about the paternity of their oldest child and he never loved or respected her - he should never have married the woman. Full stop. What’s more, he went on to have more children with this woman and he chose to stay married to her - for years! That’s his decision. He needs to own that in much the same way that you need to own the decision to have sex with another woman’s husband and now, to be in a relationship with a serial adulterer. 

My partner was married to a woman and had a child with a woman who had serious mental health issues. She was not a particularly nice woman and none of his family/friends liked her and he didn’t respect her - but he did not cheat on her. He stayed, he tried to make his marriage work for many years until it became untenable and he filed for divorce. He, like your man, had every reason to cheat - but as he didn’t cheat because he is not a cheater. 

So, you can excuse his decision to cheat - more than once - because his wife was a terrible person who nobody liked and their relationship was a train wreck from the day they met - but it’s all just excuses. 

The fact of the matter is - he made the decision to marry this woman, he made the decision to have children with this woman, and he stayed in his marriage for many years (went back to his marriage, when your relationship ended). For no other reason, the fact that she is his wife and and mother of his children, he needed to treat her with more respect than to emanate in a series of extrmarital affairs, lying to her and bringing the other woman into her home. 

And yet, they told him to marry her and never divorce this woman. 
 

 

7 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

And yet, they told him to marry her and never divorce this woman. 

I was referring to friends/siblings not liking her.  I don’t think his parents knew a lot of that when they told him he needed to marry her, but they have grown not to like her over the years.
 

I have bought the story because his friends/siblings have shared it as well. It has helped me to understand a bit. It has NOT helped me to accept it. 

[vla1120]

On 12/9/2021 at 2:40 PM, kaylasummer said:

Has anyone dated a MM going through a divorce? I met MM a little over four years ago. We have everything in common, became the best of friends, and did everything together over the 1 1/2 yr EA and 2 yr PA. His family accepted me, we shared mutual friends, and I’ve truly felt he was the one. Fast forward to D day. It was a mess. He left but went back; I’ve already shared this, so I won’t go into detail. I was heartbroken and remained strong on NC since memorial weekend. 

I ran in to him recently at our mutual friends’ holiday party. He did and said some things that would melt anyone’s heart. They also filed for D,. I’m still shocked as his family are all very against D. We’ve had some pretty deep conversations since and he let me know he has been in love with me for years. He told his xW this after dday as well. To add to everything she did (Messaging my family/friends, etc.. I don’t blame her.. I may have too), she told his entire family this which may have been a good thing, as they all supported him.

We’ve agreed he has a lot going on right now and will be taking things extremely slow. Here is my fear: he cheated on his W with me (EA/PA) for 3 1/2 years!! I found out he had cheated when they were first married as well! It’s nauseating to think about. He says it wasn’t right with her and he knew that before they even married (they married for the wrong reason). That doesn’t ease my mind. I saw first hand how easy it was to forget about his W & family at home while spending evenings and weekends with me. I saw first hand how he lied to her without batting an eye. Is he capable of lying/cheating down the road? He says no, but I’m sure he told his xW the same. I filed for D years ago during our EA. I can’t imagine lying/cheating through a long term PA. Really struggling with this. 

I am going to go back to your original post. You asked whether he is capable of lying/cheating down the road. The short answer is "Yes." Of course. Yet, you've explained away his cheating and have believed his excuses (it was never right with her, he "rescued" her from the trailer park and a bad relationship, etc.) His family has already accepted you (strange, in my opinion, and an indication that they cannot be trusted.) Yet, you get defensive when someone points out something you may not be ready to hear. You've already been with him for four years. You seemingly know everything about him and you've believed him up to now. Why are you suddenly questioning whether you can trust him? Where is your uncertainty coming from? Rather than get defensive and upset when people on LS point out facts and relate them to what has happened in other similar situations, I think you need to explore why you are having these doubts, now. Is it because, as long as he was just your AP, there was not an expectation of honor or faithfulness, but the thought of moving your relationship into an exclusive relationship scares you because you doubt his integrity and ability to remain faithful to you? If that is the case, then yes, you should tread very carefully. I would not trust him, if I were you.

Edited January 25, 2022 by vla1120

[BaileyB]

15 minutes ago, kaylasummer said:

I have bought the story because his friends/siblings have shared it as well. It has helped me to understand a bit. It has NOT helped me to accept it. 

Very kindly, you have accepted it. 

You accepted it when you chose this man for a romantic partner all those years ago. You are accepting it now because you are choosing him to be your life partner. 

I would not have accepted it from my partner. Had he told me when we met that he was in a bad marriage and he didn’t respect his wife - so he chose to engage in extramarital affairs - I would have seen that as a HUGE red flag and I would have ended the relationship then and there. She is his wife - and he feels entitled to have sex with another woman because he has lost respect for her? It would have been an absolute deal breaker for me - for exactly the reason that was previously stated here - if he treated his wife with such little respect, I would expect the same. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by BaileyB

[kaylasummer]

4 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Again, poor him.  He marries a woman that:

1-He's in love with you who his family is fine with him having an affair with and supports it.  (So why wouldn't you both go to his wife and tell her the truth?)

2-They convinced him to marry the woman he got pregnant even though they knew he wasn't happy or loved her,  never getting a paternity test; but questions child's paternity because he doesn't look like him.  Now the family supports him having a mistress and being a cheater to the wife they asked him to marry.

3-None of his family likes his wife because she's 5, 10, 15, 25, 50 years older than him and lived in a trailer park (basically a family that thinks their better than others. Yuk)

I don't understand why if she got pregnant the weekend they met he rushed to marry her.  He must have talked to his parents so why weren't they at least smart enough to find out if the baby was actually his before insisting he marry a woman he didn't love?  It's somewhat normal for the 1st born son to look like his mom and the 1st born daughter to look like her dad.  If they were married it was their money she was spending, not his.  Unless you lived with them you don't know everything that was going on between them no matter what he told you.  A lot of what you say here just doesn't add up.

 

All of this is really irrelevant, it doesn’t matter why he cheated; he did. I guess I was trying to defend him because of the many comments bashing him for cheating. Knowing more of his story (there’s more I can’t share), I understand why he wasn’t happy and content. I understand he may not have had a connection with his xW. I don’t understand why he didn’t divorce her if he was so unhappy! There aren’t any excuses for what he did.

[Eeejay]

Quote

I didn’t come here to get judged. I believe a lot of good people get themselves in to situations that they never thought possible.

Again, gently, I think the reason this thread is going in circles is because you admitted that you came here with a specific goal in mind - you wanted people to make you feel better about the situation you're in right now. You didn't get the responses you wanted or thought you'd get - people here are being honest with you, not telling you what you want to hear. It's sent you into a tailspin of scrambling to defend this guy and all of his choices while trying to bolster the 'but this is different' argument by trashing his wife. 

You NEED to believe the story he told you/you're spinning for us in order to be okay with continuing this relationship, and that's why you're digging your heels in. People who disagree with your read on this situation or tell you you have/are making poor choices aren't being judgmental (that word gets thrown around a lot here), they're simply stating the facts as they see them to HELP you get on a better path. Sometimes when people hear hard truths about themselves, they feel 'judged' - but you did what you did, and pointing it out isn't judging.

And it's not 'bashing' MM to say that he has made poor choices, hurt people and seems like a poor bet for future stability based on his past behavior. Gently, Kayla, that is a FACT. Does it mean he will definitely, absolutely and no doubt treat you the same way if you end up with him? No - but when you bet on a horse, they calculate the odds of winning based on past performance. It's the only way to predict an outcome - anything else is a huge gamble. Your question was, are you unwise to take this gamble? The resounding consensus here is yes - but it's not what you wanted to hear, so you feel judged and like we're bashing him. We're not - we're trying to help you.

 

[mark clemson]

17 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

 This man's family is okay with cheating. It could even be that its pattern passed own form father to son. Hy the op thinks it will be any different with her is beyond me. This is why I really think it coudl be a good idea for the two of them to get some relationship counseling together.

Sure, the idea for counseling isn't crazy IMO.

Reality is that LOTS of people are ok with cheating (as evidenced by it's prevalence) just as lots are ok with speeding, taking drugs, cheating on taxes, and divorce. This could easily be just as true of anyone one dates, even someone who doesn't have a history. Whether they would own up to the possibility they might cheat is not certain, I would assume it varies.

Probably the best way to keep him from cheating is to keep him VERY happy in the relationship and make it clear that IF he does cheat there will be consequences (ie, her immediately leaving). So he loses something is he very happy with. "Entanglement" of some kind, such as a shared living space, would probably help as well.

Even that is not a guarantee, of course. Counseling might help, but keep in mind that being "okay" with cheating (particularly when it's you doing it)  is not some sort of mental illness any more than being ok with eating meat or cheating on your taxes is. Some might claim it's a "moral deficiency" but then again there's plenty of folks who'd claim that about eating meat, drinking alcohol, wearing bikinis, etc. It's more like a moral "setting".

Edited January 25, 2022 by mark clemson

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I didn’t come here to get judged. I believe a lot of good people get themselves in to situations that they never thought possible.

Nor should you be, any more than someone who drinks alcohol, eats meat, wears revealing clothing, speeds, etc, etc. None of those things are objectively "wrong" but all of them can have negative results, sometimes quite negative indeed.

At any rate, just as you would with someone who's never cheated, the best way to try to ensure he won't cheat is to try to ensure he's very happy with you and your relationship (assuming there is a non-secret relationship forthcoming) and try to sway his attitude toward not desiring to cheat. And just as it would be with someone who's never cheated, there are never any true guarantees. That's just life.

[BaileyB]

35 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

The best way to try to ensure he won't cheat is to try to ensure he's very happy with you and your relationship

Only this man is responsible for his decision to be faithful or unfaithful in his relationship. As we have seen on this board time and again, good people who are good partners still unfortunately get tangled up with individuals who feel entitled to have an extramarital relationship. It is in no way a reflection on the individual who is betrayed or the relationship they had with their unfaithful partner. 

It is not your responsibility Kayla to ensure that this man who you have known to be unfaithful in the past, is faithful to you. You have no control over his decisions, just as his wife had no control over his decisions. It is his responsibility, and his failing, if he is makes a decision not to be faithful in a relationship.

It’a your decision whether to trust and get involved with this man, knowing his past history. That is the only decision you control, 

Edited January 25, 2022 by BaileyB

[mark clemson]

16 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

Only this man is responsible for his decision to be faithful or unfaithful in his relationship.

Completely true. I did say "try" and mention that there are never guarantees. I certainly believe my advice is valid and happier partners are less likely to cheat. That is based on posts we see on this board as well, in addition to what I feel is common sense.

There do seem to be those in the world who will cheat no matter how happy they may be in their primary R, and certainly there are posts here that bear that out as well. I'm not arguing against that point.

Edited January 25, 2022 by mark clemson

[ilikept]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

. I believe a lot of good people get themselves in to situations that they never thought possible.

But better people keep themselves out of those situations to begin with. 

[ilikept]

2 hours ago, kaylasummer said:

I see it differently. He is not the arrogant doctor you’re probably all envisioning. He’s a very humble down to earth guy. His friends and family who knew of the A supported us because they’ve told me they see our connection and his smile again.
 

They knew how he ended up with his xW; they knew he wasn’t happy and that he never loved her. They knew other things as well and not one liked her. For one, she was in a 10+ year relationship, living with someone up until the weekend she met him, someone who was into drugs and going to jail (he found out later on). They’ve often questioned (as did MM) whether the oldest is his as there is zero resemblance, she became pregnant the weekend they met, they married shortly after, and dates were off. 
 

I get it, no excuse to cheat. However, I understand it a bit more because I know their story. He didn’t respect her (there’s so much more regarding this I can’t share-TMI). He helped get her out of the trailer park (she’s actually said this). His friends/family believe he was her meal ticket; they’ve never liked her. She spent his money as fast as he made it with new vehicles, jewelry, etc. I do almost feel bad for him… but I get it… he made his bed and should have divorced earlier on!

 

Now you’re making him sound just plain dumb and irresponsible.  

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

I have bought the story because his friends/siblings have shared it as well. It has helped me to understand a bit. It has NOT helped me to accept it. 

Oh so this is gossip you're speaking of.  Do any of them live in the same house as this couple?  It's funny that he hates her but went on to have more kids with her.  Doesn't add up.

[Eeejay]

Quote

happier partners are less likely to cheat.

I do believe there's truth in that. But the big issue with that mentality (the 'make him/her happy so there's less chance that they cheat) is that marriage is a long-term commitment. When people say their vows, they aren't saying "I promise to be faithful to you, but only in times when our relationship is good and I feel like you're meeting all my needs. Other than that, no promises." The phrase is 'for better or for worse' for a reason. Marriages that span years, decades - they go through ups and downs. The point of marriage is for each partner to support the other through the tough times.

Some people aren't cut out for that kind of commitment - and you know what? That's okay. It's not for everyone, marriage. But in order for each partner to feel secure in the marriage, especially if they're building a life together with kids and shared debt and all that fun grown up stuff, a person HAS to be able to go through a rough patch (depression, post-partum issues, midlife crisis, periods of grief over deaths or job loss or whatever) without worrying that their partner is gonna respond by betraying them and having an affair with someone else because they're a big bummer and not fun anymore. Who wants to live with that fear and insecurity?

Kayla, the point is that if you enter into a long-term commitment with this man, will there ever be a time when you will fully trust him? He's failed the marriage test. Sure, you can give him a retake, and he might ace it - but are you willing to risk your heart and many good years of your life on it? You keep saying 'yeah yeah, I get it, no excuse for cheating' but then turn around and offer dozens of excuses for him. You're in conflict with yourself.

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, kaylasummer said:

 I understand he may not have had a connection with his xW. 

So does he finally have his fully executed divorce papers in hand?

[stillafool]

You know Kayla I think you should read TamBuktu's thread.  You guys sound familiar and have a lot in common.