The Three Tiers of Dating and Sexual Market Value

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

if you NEVER get ANY interest, one begins asking why that might be.

That seems to be where guitar guy is at...
 

Quote

Well, I got a pretty nice family and we have a nice farm, it's like a private park. You can go kayaking, go feed some fish, walk through the garden, it's a pretty nice place.  That's something I would be bringing to the table. 

I got some money because of inheritance, and i'm going to college and getting a degree, so that's something I bring to the table. 

I work out 3x a week so am fairly fit, that's something I bring to the table. 

I have all sorts of hobbies and interests. I play soccer, I play the guitar and piano, I like to create and edit movies, that's something I bring to the table. 


All I ask for is a nice girlfriend who I get along with and I get to have sex with, that's all I ask for. 

Sounds like someone who really deserves a nice gf...

[chillii]

1 hour ago, Alpaca said:

I know. I'm like, who the heck is Chad and Stacy. 

😆

Oh no , don't tell me there's a Stacy too .🤣

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, elaine567 said:

Sounds like someone who really deserves a nice gf...

No one "deserves" anything... if the OP wants to date a nice woman, he has put in the work to find and date her.

[GuitarGuy7]

If you experienced what I experienced, you'd become black pilled too. 

All throughout my twenties, women were never attracted to me. In 2015 when I signed up for Tinder, I was rejected and ghosted by every single girl, while all my friends could get dates easily. 

And so I thought maybe real life would be better. So I went to the college dorms, tried meeting women in classes, tried meeting women in clubs but nobody was ever interested in me. Not even one girl was attracted to me. Just one girl could have given me an ounce of validation that I was desired as a romantic and sexual being, but it never happened. Every single girl, every single one of them rejected me. 

So I searched for answers; I wanted to know why. Deep down I already knew the answer. I am a 5 ft 2 man living in a country where 6 ft tall is the ideal and many women won't even consider you unless you're at least 5 ft 10. In addition, i'm also autistic. It's already hard enough for for normies, especially in our current society where more and more young men are sexually inactive and we are beginning the sexual recession. With my stature and disability, I never stood a chance. 

A month ago, I got set up on a "blind date" with another with autism. I thought this would finally be my chance to escape. But you know what happened? After our "date" she took 24 hours to respond back, was always "too busy" to meet up, but I saw her at a bar making out with other guys. I tried reaching out to her again, I was vulnerable with her about my problems how I desperately needed help. And you know what she did? She told me to get lost.

[ ]

I may be a failure with women but that doesn't mean i'm a failure in other aspects of life. I want to do things that make me happy and fulfilled like playing soccer, working out, playing the piano, video editing. That's what makes me happy. [ ]

Edited December 24, 2021 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Group berating

[GuitarGuy7]

I knew a guy like me once. He was a black man who like me, was also 5 ft 2 and autistic. 

At the age of 21, he posted a series of vlogs on the internet talking about struggles with women where he was well known to yell at the camera to vent his frustrations. As a result, he gathered a small following of people.

He finally got a girlfriend at the age of 25, an obese mexican girl, and i'm sure he was happy about having a girlfriend for the first time, at least at first. It turns out that she was cheating on him behind his back; she was secretly an escort and even had an OnlyFans.

It makes me discouraged because me as a 5 ft 2 autistic man myself, what if the same s*** happens to me? What if I wind up with a girl I don't even like who turns out to be abusive because that's my only option?

[Trail Blazer]

39 minutes ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

I knew a guy like me once. He was a black man who like me, was also 5 ft 2 and autistic. 

At the age of 21, he posted a series of vlogs on the internet talking about struggles with women where he was well known to yell at the camera to vent his frustrations. As a result, he gathered a small following of people.

He finally got a girlfriend at the age of 25, an obese mexican girl, and i'm sure he was happy about having a girlfriend for the first time, at least at first. It turns out that she was cheating on him behind his back; she was secretly an escort and even had an OnlyFans.

It makes me discouraged because me as a 5 ft 2 autistic man myself, what if the same s*** happens to me? What if I wind up with a girl I don't even like who turns out to be abusive because that's my only option?

Anybody can get cheated on.  Anyone can be in an abusive relationship.  Having more options doesn't preclude you from this scenario. 

What having more options does is allow you to not worry so much about leaving an abusive relationship because you know you can find someone else fairly easily.

The reality is, though, regardless of how easy or hard you find dating, the most important thing is to first date, and second, not compromise on how you wish to be treated.

If you avoid dating to avoid heartache, it's akin to never driving a car because you're trying to avoid being in an accident.  Sure, you'll not have an accident, but think of how much you'll lose out.

[Taramere]

16 hours ago, lana-banana said:

What a positively exhausting way of looking at the world. How about doing your best to be healthy and happy (including exercise, focusing on self-esteem, and treating others with respect) and going from there? It's not normal or proper to think about people in terms of their "sexual market value" (which is also not a real thing). 

I think lots of us are only too well aware of the sort of sites that encourage men to believe that objectifying/being dismissive of women is part of how to be more successful with them.  I suppose there's also that sense of "if we diminish everybody, even ourselves, with the language of a meat market, then we'll develop a more robust and realistic  approach that will help protect us from the disappointment and pain that so often accompanies the business of trying to find a meaningful relationship.  Let's not become emotional tampons, gentlemen...."

So you've got guys who have the sort of temperament where they crave order and reliability, and are maybe better with things than with people, seeking out guidance from people who will essentially encourage them to do even more of what they already do.  That is,  objectify humanity, refer to women as though we're things rather than people etc.   With psychology being used less as a tool for understanding themselves and other people better, and more as a means of trying to manipulate others.  I know a lot of guys would say "it's not all like that" and I'm sure it isn't.  Society is probably making progress in terms of all male environments being less encouraging and embracing of that sort of unhelpful, potential relationship destroying mindset.  But I've no doubt there's still more than enough of it around to suck in the sort of men who already objectify women (not out of malice, but simply because they're better geared towards dealing with things)...and who flounder in their dealings with women because of it.

@GuitarGuy7...I don't think the term "Chad" generally has particularly positive connotations.  My understanding of it is that it's a term men who struggle to meet women attribute in a somewhat bitterly disparaging way to men who get lots of sexual opportunities and who get away with treating women poorly because they have a lot of options.  A lot of men aspiring to being like that are likely motivated primarily by the sexual opportunities, but I think there are also some of a more bitter disposition who are motivated by the thought of increased opportunities to treat women as poorly as they feel they themselves have been treated.

One possible "helper" for you who I think has received an unfair press over the years due to some of his political outbursts (and weakness for embracing his more trollish fans at times) is Jordan Peterson.  Although he's often embroiled in politics and has therefore become a controversial figure, his background is as a clinical psychologist - and from what I've seen of him, I think he's probably very effective in that role.  I'll bet his name is probably quite popular in PUA/"red pill" circles...and that's no bad thing, since he has a proper grounding in psychology and using it to help people help themselves.  Which hopefully helps counter some of the self appointed gurus in that environment who perceive psychology in terms of how effectively it can help them manipulate other people.

I know I might get some heat for bringing up his name, and personally I think he's often overly preoccupied with gloom and doom at times...but a lot of  men out there (and some women too) have reported that listening to his freely available lectures and talks on psychology and self help helped them to self examine in a useful way and get to a better, more mature and responsible place.

I think for a lot of men who struggle to communicate with women, getting a girlfriend is a defining life event because the relationship teaches them to understand women better as fellow human beings rather than as mysterious creatures who must be mastered like difficult animals. But wanting to be a "Chad" sounds to me like somebody who's temporarily wheelchair bound wanting to be a trapeze artist or some other sort of novelty circus act, instead of just focusing on getting stronger, progressing through small incremental steps...and learning to appreciate the importance of that journey, rather than fixating on something they'd like to be which might be completely at odds with their basic temperament and skill set.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Taramere

[Foxhall]

5 hours ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

In addition, i'm also autistic

well you will have to learn to live with this, it will always put social activity as a certain challenge for you but you can make yourself better at it,

My girlfriend's father is autistic, I was first introduced to him on a video call about a year ago , and was thinking wow this is like the shyest man ever, he had his head buried in the computer and clearly uncomfortable,

but now if I am there when he calls, you know he will engage and will even ask to speak ,

It takes longer perhaps for people with autism to become comfortable with a person, and similarly for the other person to become comfortable with them,

in that way, first dates and hitting on girls in a bar, both of those things will be awkward for you.

You will have a better chance if you ae meeting the same girl regularly over a number of months, to give you time to get used to her and vice versa,

I mean your quite an articulate and engaging guy on writing,  the social skills of conversation and so on, that will get better if you work at it,

Personally have always been shy and introverted also, I started working for a while teaching in adult education in the last ten years,

you know after that, I found suddenly going on dates with women one on one was relatively easy compared to standing up in front of a group of people,

So finding something to do which will be difficult but pushes you to develop those interpersonal skills,

If I were you now, Id look to set up a meet-up group , Id stick to your own community for now, autistic societies and so on and try to start some time of weekly /fortnightly activity group,

this will give you a chance to get to know people over time and you will learn to relax and your personality will start to develop.

 

[Yosemite]

6 hours ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

After our "date" she took 24 hours to respond back, was always "too busy" to meet up, but I saw her at a bar making out with other guys. I tried reaching out to her again, I was vulnerable with her about my problems how I desperately needed help.

Next time try a counselor or someone trained to help autistic people.

6 hours ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

And you know what she did? She told me to get lost.

Of course she did. That's not at all a realistic expectation to have, especially not for someone you just met. Did you think it would be like one of those teen movies where the popular girl teaches the nerdy guy how to interact with people and in the process falls in love with him? Real life is different from the movies.

It's so cringy that you even asked her that; I bet you straight up asked her to have pity sex with you and now you're outraged that the answer was no. I remember the way that you talked about her in your thread and how you were planning to use her; it's not at all surprising that she didn't want anything to do with you. You could use some humble pie.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Yosemite

[Alpacalia]

Sorry, but the mindset of the first post is demeaning, categorizing women and men using their "sexual market value."

[chillii]

 

My daughter is absolutely stunning and her bf was 5'2 . Never once did l ever hear an issue whatsoever .

[Atwood]

I'm sorry you are in pain. Berating women and others who have hurt you in the past won't fix it. You're just perpetuating the cycle by spewing more hate and in turn becoming a person you can't hope to be proud of. Please consider talking to a therapist about your feelings. Laughing at someone who is in an abusive relationship is a horrible thing to do: will doing horrible things fix your problem? Let me answer it for you: it won't. It will probably make the problem worse.

It probably makes you feel better in the short-term, or like you're protecting yourself, but you're not. "Women" didn't do anything to you. Some women have hurt your feelings and you haven't got the emotional tools to recover from this (it's okay, a lot of us don't). I went through a period of seriously distrusting men after being abused and cheated on, but eventually you have to learn that awful stuff happens to all of us and it won't fix it if we lash out at someone who hurt us. The only way to fix it is to work on recovery and healing and seek professional help if we need it. 

Nobody on this forum can help you, only you can address this problem. Please address it responsibly, because it's not women's responsibility to fix it for you. Work on being someone you are proud of. 

[Alpacalia]

Clearly there's some heavy conditioning in your past somewhere.

The sadness and loneliness of hating half the world's population must be tremendous.

[Happy Lemming]

8 hours ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

 I am a 5 ft 2 man living in a country where 6 ft tall is the ideal and many women won't even consider you unless you're at least 5 ft 10.

I didn't realize you were 5' 2", yes that is going to make it a lot harder for you to date/find someone.

I'm 6' 1" and yes, it seemed women preferred taller guys.

I dated one woman who was 4' 10" and she had a "no guy under 6 feet rule".  I thought it was a bit hypocritical of her to have this rule, but she stated she was NOT going to date short men.  She was petite, but cute and could be picky about whom she dated.

I did know one guy who was like 5' 4" or 5' 5" and he always seem to have to date the larger women or the ones with 2-3 kids.  He made a GREAT living, had money, nice clothes, nice car, nice house, fun personality... but his height always got him rejected by the hotties.  He had to settle for what he could get.

I guess all I can say is "Life isn't fair"...

[Foxhall]

Ah yeah I would not criticise you really for your negative thoughts towards women, you are merely venting your frustration and you have not been lucky enough yet to experience the affection of a woman, something which will soften your soul,

dont get so upset over it anyway- a woman will come along for you eventually, lot of good ones out there too.

keep practicing your conversations and be a gentleman,

autistic people , I have heard it said produce smart children themselves, so likely you have a lot to offer in that area going forward,

Happy Christmas!

[GuitarGuy7]

2 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

I didn't realize you were 5' 2", yes that is going to make it a lot harder for you to date/find someone.

I'm 6' 1" and yes, it seemed women preferred taller guys.

I dated one woman who was 4' 10" and she had a "no guy under 6 feet rule".  I thought it was a bit hypocritical of her to have this rule, but she stated she was NOT going to date short men.  She was petite, but cute and could be picky about whom she dated.

I did know one guy who was like 5' 4" or 5' 5" and he always seem to have to date the larger women or the ones with 2-3 kids.  He made a GREAT living, had money, nice clothes, nice car, nice house, fun personality... but his height always got him rejected by the hotties.  He had to settle for what he could get.

I guess all I can say is "Life isn't fair"...

Yeah some women are like that.

I used to be a part of a small group with both guys and girls. There were Asian sisters; both of who were petite and attractive, both 4 ft 10 and 5 ft 2 respectively. Their boyfriends are both tall white guys. The 4 ft 10 girl's boyfriend is a 6 ft 3 white guy who honestly kinda looks like an e-boy.  The other boyfriend is 6 ft tall, skinny, white. 

I'm not sure if they both have 6 ft tall height requirements but it honestly doesn't surprise me if the 4 ft 10 girl does, since she's always nice to the other tall good looking white boys at this meetup. And you know what? She can afford to be picky all she wants. She's cute, got a nice body, and is fairly extroverted. 


I used to go to a church group, mostly just to meet women. I'm not exaggerating when I say that almost every single petite girl there had a boyfriend that was a tall white guy. 3 cute girls; all of them were 5 ft 3 and under; all three of their boyfriends were tall skinny white guys who were at least 6 ft tall.

If you want to be successful with girls in America; being tall, skinny, and white, is a huge advantage. 





 

Edited December 24, 2021 by GuitarGuy7

[GuitarGuy7]

By the way, I do agree. I need therapy. 

[Happy Lemming]

1 hour ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

Yeah some women are like that.

Just out of curiosity, I asked my girlfriend (who is 5' 6") about height, height requirements, etc. 

She said the shortest man she dated was 5' 8" and she would go no shorter than that.

For the record, her ex-husband was 6' 1" (similar to me), so unbeknownst to me, she had a "height rule" that I didn't even know about.

I guess this "height rule/requirement" is more common than I thought.

 

[Wiseman2]

Joe Pesci. Paul Simon. Martin Scorsese. Prince?.....All 5'3". Danny DeVito is 4'10".

The list of successful shorter men is much longer, of course.

Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Greta Thunberg has ASD. 

Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, John Nash had schizophrenia.

So it seems like these are not the issues, but rather anger and hate groups. 

At least you can see a physician about anger, depression, anxiety and there's treatment for that.

 

[GuitarGuy7]

52 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Just out of curiosity, I asked my girlfriend (who is 5' 6") about height, height requirements, etc. 

She said the shortest man she dated was 5' 8" and she would go no shorter than that.

For the record, her ex-husband was 6' 1" (similar to me), so unbeknownst to me, she had a "height rule" that I didn't even know about.

I guess this "height rule/requirement" is more common than I thought.

 

I feel like a lot of women have height requirements, even if they don't admit to it. I mean my sister is an attractive 5 ft 2 blonde girl and all of her boyfriends (at least 5-6 in high school and early adulthood) were all 5 ft 10 or taller. Her ex-husband was 6 ft tall. 

And at my height (5 ft 2) that means, a high percentage of women are going to automatically write me off. I can't give you an exact number but I can try and estimate. According to American height percentiles, 15% of women are 5 ft 2 or shorter.  In addition, the percentage of women who would consider dating a guy their height or shorter is only 5% according to a study from Huffington Post (ouch)

That means we can estimate that only around 10-15% of women would ever consider giving a man my height a chance. A whopping 85-90% of women automatically write me off on height alone. 

However, I have a solution and this is something I will seriously consider in my thirties when i'm ready to get married. I could always try to look for love in a country where the average height of a woman is shorter. The theory being that if I look for love in countries where the women are shorter, my height will be less of a handicap.  The Philippines for instance, has women who only average to be 5 ft tall, and men are typically around 5 ft 4.  That means i'm 2-3 inches taller than the average filipino woman and my height should be less of an issue there.



 

Edited December 24, 2021 by GuitarGuy7

[Happy Lemming]

2 minutes ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

However, I have a solution and this is something I will seriously consider in my thirties when i'm ready to get married. I could always try to look for love in a country where the average height of a woman is shorter. The theory being that if I look for love in countries where the women are shorter, my height will be less of a handicap.  The Philippines for instance, has women who only average to be 5 ft tall, and men are typically around 5 ft 4.  That means i'm 2-3 inches taller than the average filipino woman and my height should be less of an issue there.

Yes...  I think there was a previous poster on Loveshack that utilized a service to find a woman to marry in the Philippines.  I think his poster name was @enigma32

Maybe you could search through some of his old threads and read about his experiences with the process.

[Happy Lemming]

7 minutes ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

  In addition, the percentage of women who would consider dating a guy their height or shorter is only 5% according to a study from Huffington Post (ouch)

That is an interesting statistic.  I wonder how many women were interviewed for this study.  I also wonder how many were truthful and if the percentage is actually lower??

[elaine567]

9 minutes ago, GuitarGuy7 said:

However, I have a solution and this is something I will seriously consider in my thirties when i'm ready to get married. I could always try to look for love in a country where the average height of a woman is shorter. The theory being that if I look for love in countries where the women are shorter, my height will be less of a handicap.  The Philippines for instance, has women who only average to be 5 ft tall, and men are typically around 5 ft 4.  That means i'm 2-3 inches taller than the average filipino woman and my height should be less of an issue there.
 

Maybe but I guess those looking for foreign men may also be looking for more height too.

[GuitarGuy7]

41 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

Yes...  I think there was a previous poster on Loveshack that utilized a service to find a woman to marry in the Philippines.  I think his poster name was @enigma32

Maybe you could search through some of his old threads and read about his experiences with the process.

I actually have a distant relative who did this. My grandpa had a brother, who had a son, who went to The Philippines to find a wife. 

He was in his 40s and wasn't successful with women at all and was getting quite desperate. He's likely on the autism spectrum but was never diagnosed due to growing up in a small town and growing up before higher functioning autism was widely diagnosed. 

So he signed up for a dating agency and got to talking to a girl in The Philippines. Eventually, he went to meet her and they agreed to get married. Obviously, love wasn't the big reason why they got married, but also as a way for her to have a better life in America. But I think she eventually grew to love him. And guess what? They've been married for 20+ years. It probably helps that he went for a woman around his age, and similar levels of attractiveness. 

So maybe that's something I will consider if I'm in my thirties or forties and still struggling with women. 

 

[Girl Fade Away]

I read @GuitarGuy7 comments as coming from a place of hurt and pain. I did not take offense to them for that reason. 

Being both autistic and only 5'2", I can only imagine how difficult it's been.  The rejection, the shame, women can be brutal sometimes, as difficult as that is to admit about my own gender.

So yeah, to me, all we can do is sympathize and try to empathize (place ourselves in his shoes so to speak). Or try to?  JMO.

Sad to say but one's SMV is quite predominant in today's dating environment, there is no denying that. 

There are outliers though. Personally, with respect to height, very tall men are not appealing to me, I find many gawky and awkward.   My preference is 5'10" and under, I am 5'6".

Happy Lemming gave a list of shorter men, most notably Prince who was only 5'2".  I had a huge crush on him growing up, I found him sexy as hell!  🧡

I would have gone for him in a second without his success, but still with his musical talent as I am into music and the arts.  I doubt very much he ever worried about his shorter stature. 

But I realize I AM an outlier, I think most women do place quite a bit of emphasis on height. 

OP, I am wondering if there are dating apps and websites that cater to shorter people?  They have a dating app for just about everything else so maybe look into that? 

I actually just found one! 

https://www-datingadvice-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.datingadvice.com/online-dating/short-dating-site/amp?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16403799525072&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.datingadvice.com%2Fonline-dating%2Fshort-dating-site

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Girl Fade Away