Marriage and money and affair etc etc

[Sophie Norris]

 

I appreciate anyone even reading this but I would love an outsiders opinion. I have been married for 10 years and we have two wonderful young children.

 

My marriage has never been great, we got married quickly and we never really communicated about anything and we certainly never discussed expectations from each other. The first 6 months of our relationship were passionate/intense/great! He proposed and I was chuffed.
 

We got married very quickly and problems were already showing, he didn't listen to anything I wanted about the wedding and I went along with the plans to not rock the boat. I'm really not high maintenance but it was not great communication at all. On both sides. The first few years I felt very lonely, kind of went through phases of thinking I'd made a mistake, and phases where I thought it would be fine. He had a lot of time consuming hobbies and when we got married I moved in with him, miles away from my life, yet didn't want to seem "clingy" so I never asked him to factor me in much.

 

Once I became a mum I was never lonely again. Our first child was a dream and things were good. My husband wanted another child quickly so we tried and conceived very quickly. Before the second child was even born there was a change. My husband got a new (expensive and even more time consuming) hobby. He didnt have a lot of interest in the pregnancy.

Once the baby came along he didn't bond at all. I just got on with it and did a pretty amazing job I think, ha! There were a few occasions where we had huge rows because I'd ask for help and he didnt help. He was so focused on his sport that he didnt think he was doing wrong. He believed it was a woman's job to do everything with the children. I have always worked I will add so I am not financially dependent on him. We earn similar salaries. I literally worked and was mum for the first few years, and we argued a lot about me having to physically be at work (as he would need to do the childcare).

I am a nurse so I worked 2 x 12hr shifts a week and I had 5 days a week as mummy. I always thought I'd leave to be honest as it wasn't good enough, but I just prodded on. About 3 years ago I found out my husband had been overspending on his hobbies, by a lot of money, I was angry and upset, and I then switched to having my own bank account and we just halved the bills since. I've tried to look the other way as really it is his money and I have mine.

Now about 2yrs ago he got a once in a lifetime payment from work and he used it to clear his debts. The last year has been particularly rough for us with regards to our marriage and I had decided to leave. I told him I would move out when a house became available to rent close by and he could buy me out of our home whenever he could.

I moved into the spare room maybe 2 months ago and things really nose dived. He started to criticise me a lot more than usual, he commented on my parenting (one thing I know I am good at is being a great mummy)!

So I told him it was over.

Then I got close to another man. I knew him already, not really well, but I had always thought he was the perfect gentleman. He was the opposite of everything my husband is. One day I just opened up to him. Met him for coffee and told him how bad my marriage was etc etc.

For about 3 weeks we text daily. Met a couple of times. I hid it from my husband but at the time I didnt feel I was being unfaithful (I now know I was).

Things did get physical once after a meal out. My husband put something on my phone to monitor messages and he found out. I then ended things with this man and for the last two weeks have been deciding what the next step for us is.

My husband has had "an epiphany" and said he is sorry for how he has been in our marriage and he has been very understanding about the affair. He has been really trying to make up for how he was when our youngest was born and he has been pretty close to perfect. I'd agreed to try marriage counselling.

Now today I peeked in his new dairy, I dont know why, it is the 1st of the month, I didnt expect anything to be in there but I'd got him a new fancy pen for Christmas so I was looking to see if he had used it.

Anyway I found a lost of his incoming and outgoings, and it looks as though there is over 20k of debt. Again. Just 2 years after paying it all off. Now there has been no fancy holidays, no home improvements. He earns a decent salary. As do I. Our bills are affordable.

He hadn't disclosed this debt to me (but we do have separate finances since the last time so some may say why would he tell me). I feel so disappointed. The last time he wrote me a big apology saying it was selfish and he was a father and it was all just "things". He would never do it again, etc etc. Now here we are.

I have lost some respect for him. He doesnt even know how much debt he is in. He "thinks" he got a loan for 20k to cover bits and pieces on credit cards etc but he doesnt remember why. I find this all very strange. I am so sensible with my money, I treat the family etc and I'm not greedy, but I save, and I would absolutely remember getting a 20k loan. I'd also discuss it with my husband.

 

I really don't know what to do. The trust on all sides is broken. I crossed a line that I never thought I would. But I think this is so wrong too. If it was the first time I would try to be understanding, I hope. But we have been through this and had so much stress over debt before and I just think all his promises of being better are just going to fail.

 

 

Has anyone ever been in a similar mess? I very much doubt it Haha.

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Wiseman2]

Sorry this is happening. Consult an attorney for your options in divorce and discuss your husbands (and therefore Your debt).

Do not abandon marital home. Do not keep up this DIY pseudo-divorce.

Do not make off the cuff promises like you'll move out and he'll pay you back. Get expert legal advice.

You'll need legal advice as to how this affects your debt. Check your credit score. Check all your bank accounts and credit cards. Open accounts in your children's names with you as the trustee. 

Bring all your devices to an IT pro for spyware. You vehicle may have tracking devices on it as well. Ask your attorney about the legality of the spyware and tracking devices.

 What is this expensive hobby? Gambling? Goin to escorts? Keeping a mistress? Drugs? How does he rack up 20k in debt without it being noticeable?

Do not discuss any of this with your husband. Get expert advice.

[Sophie Norris]

Thank you so much for your reply. 

I actually thought the replies may sit on the fence, especially seen as i tried to, rather than giving emotional examples of how bad it has really been. But the fact that this reply focuses entirely on divorce speaks volumes really. 

He is really keen for us to see this marriage counsellor this week. He says he wants to be the best husband and his priorities have totally changed etc etc but there is so much hurt. I have no trust in him at all. And I'm sure he doesn't trust me either after what I did the last couple of weeks. 

His hobby is triathlon. He has told me tonight he owes 23k. It is a crazy amount of money in such a short time. I am so disappointed because it is not the first time this has happened. I just find it so unbelievably selfish to be honest. 

Thank you. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Wiseman2]

3 minutes ago, Sophie Norris said:

He has told me tonight he owes 23k. It is a crazy amount of money in such a short time. I am so disappointed because it is not the first time this has happened. I just find it so unbelievably selfish

Marriage counselling may help, but it will not absolve you of marital debt and it will not make him more involved as a father/husband. You  could loose your home and your credit may already be in the toilet.

It will also not stop him from siphoning money away from the household or your kids' futures. Is his hobby worth throwing away your kids education? If you divorced, he would have to pay out for the house and have to pay for child support so his hobbies would have to take a backseat to financial and parental responsibilities.

[mark clemson]

Hmm. I think if he was a "spendthrift" type who tries to live a lifestyle beyond their means you'd already know - for example, you suddenly be finding brand new furniture in your living room, expensive bottles of wine laying around the house or similar things. So it's probably not that IMO.

So, I think he almost certainly has a very good idea about where that money is going. He's just not sharing that info with you. If he's very into sports, perhaps it's sports wagering? (But that's just a guess.)

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by mark clemson

[Sophie Norris]

Thank you Mark. He does buy whatever he wants, so he is definitely a spender, but to be honest nothing has looked like it costs thousands. And because we had been in this mess before, and he promised to change, I wouldn't have suspected he was getting in debt again. To be honest the relationship has many serious problems anyway without this stressor. I have always believed in being faithful and I can't believe I got so close to someone else while being married. 

I can't see this poor marriage counsellor being able to work miracles. But nonetheless I said I would try so I will try. 

He may be gambling. I've asked. He has denied it. I don't suppose what the Money has gone on really matters. It is the lies, or lack of honesty, that I am struggling with. He said he hadnt lied as I have not specifically asked him "are you in debt again?". I would not have asked because we almost split up over it in the past. So I am very shocked we are even in this position again.

Thank you for your time x

[Foxhall]

5 hours ago, Sophie Norris said:

My husband has had "an epiphany" and said he is sorry for how he has been in our marriage and he has been very understanding about the affair. He has been really trying to make up for how he was when our youngest was born and he has been pretty close to perfect. I'd agreed to try marriage counselling.

Im slightly acquainted with the gambling dynamic myself so yeah Id say thats a fair possibility in this case (speculation of course)

Would you end a marriage if your husband was a problem gambler or would you try to help him through it?

My thoughts are he realises now he is lucky to have you and is prepared to make more of an effort,

thats positive anyway about him taking more interest in the youngest child,

He has financial debt going on,  also from his perspective , his wife has been cheating on him (well ok you could argue it was justifiable)

but nonetheless the man is in mental turmoil,

he needs your support and at least a fair crack at saving the marriage.

I think you should be open to that, which in-fairness, you appear to be,

good luck.

 

 

 

[Sophie Norris]

Hi Foxhall, thank you for your reply. No I wouldn't end a marriage if my husband had a gambling addiction. I would try to support him. We have been through lies about money before and paid off a huge amount in debts (£26,000 roughly). And I thought we had moved on. I think things in other areas had just been so so poor, we have not been a partnership for so long, and although I have broken a vow, this was in the last few weeks only, until then I have to say (my husband would agree) I have been a pretty decent wife. He took out this 20k loan last year so long before my infidelity. He has continued to overspend since too. I think he is obsessional and compulsive and he has had to buy the very best of everything. I am very worried about him to be honest. It is such bizarre behaviour when he has two amazing children who depend on us for everything. 

The affair was brief. But the man I got close to was the absolute opposite of my husband. If my husband hadn't hacked my phone god knows where we would be now. I wouldn't have led a double life, but I'm not sure I'd still be here. However I have hated seeing him hurt, I feel a lot of regret, and a lot of sadness for everyone involved. If my husband was in emotional turmoil then he is going to be screwed now! He is pretty convinced he has changed though. I suppose time will tell. And the therapist might help. I hope! 

Thanks x

[Crazelnut]

His financial infidelity is just as damaging to a marriage as sexual infidelity. This man lied to you (and still won't admit they were lies by omission) and has jeopardized your children's futures REPEATEDLY.

I don't think you should even consider MC with him until he spends a lot of time with an IC, sorting out what his problems are and dealing with them. The problem isn't your marriage; the problem is HIM. You will never be able to trust him again. 

[S2B]

Why would you do MC with him? He is the one who has betrayed you and has been lying to you.

until he comes clean - you have nothing to work with but lies and lack of info. He knows exactly where his money goes! Look at his bank transactions! Demand to see exactly how he spends his money! He’s been betraying you. 

you play the role of compliant wife. Why? Why when he keeps using you? Why wouldn’t you prefer to be on your own? He doesn’t support you/what you say…he doesn’t help with the kids - so just leave him since he continues to pretend to be a partner but he’s not! He CHOOSES a to spend his time in a sport that takes up all his spare time! Then he spends the family money secretly! That’s NEVER going to be a good partner! He is entitled and selfish to the core!

you would be better off without him dragging you down! Why stay? He has big issues. He needs work, not you.

he has already had his chance and he did it again. I don’t see why you’re even considering staying. He’s not a good dad and he’s not a good husband. I’d end it…knowing he will just do it again and again.

Edited January 4, 2022 by S2B

[understand50]

Sophie,

OK there are two things going on.  First your unhappiness and infidelity.  Second, his financial infidelity.  Both of these two things are related, and pose a real problem to your marriage. From the conversation, on this thread, most are keying in on his financial infidelity, and yes this is a huge betrayal.  In many ways it is the gift that keeps giving, as the money has to be paid back, and in order to overcome any new issues, one must change their behavior.   He will need counseling, and understand to get over this, and will have to become a open book with you so you both understand where the money is going and what credit it being used.  This will not be a easy thing to do, or be fast.  It will take time.

I am assuming,  from your comment "Things did get physical once after a meal out"  that you went from a EA, to a full   PA, and had sex with your AP.  This complicates everything, as you will also have to be a open book to your husband, and also seek forgiveness for what you have done.  You both are in the wrong here.  Him for lying and spending what you do not have and placing the family at risk, and you for cheating and placing the marriage at risk.

Many, will say, just divorce, and be done with it.  I think you should look at that option, but I also think, that you both could work on the marriage and maybe reconcile.  I know you are upset with him overspending, but I point out he was doing this, as you were cheating, and that from your own posting he is making a honest effort to change.   A question? His he still over spending, or is the debt just what you found out now?   Are you using his transgressions to shield yourself from your actions?  Is he doing the same thing?   Maybe a answir to these questions could clarify what path you should take forward, but I would also state, that it is not all up to you.  He would be in his rights to divorce you for adultery, and most of your family and friends would agree with that.  I am pointing out, that you both have thing you have done to each other, and need to come to a middle understanding if you are to stay to together.  IF you divorce, you will both have to forage a new relationship to raise your children together.

My final take, is that you both have to grow up and take responsibility for yourselves, your relationship and most importantly your kids. Working on this, in my opinion, would lead to a better relationship for both of you, regardless if you decide to divorce.

I wish you luck.

 

[Just a Guy]

Hi Sophie, having read your OP and subsequent posts and taking a birds eye view of your entire situation, I can only say one thing! The two of you are incompatible to a degree where it is a wonder that you have lasted out as long as you have. From everything you have had to say, it seems that you two have lasted out, mainly,  because you have been bending over backwards in compromising with your husband's behaviour and this has emboldened him to the extent that he has neglected his duties as a husband, Father and the head of the family. His callousness has led you into frustration and infidelity, which, in and of itself, sounds the death knell of a relationship. 

As per your own statement trust is lacking on both sides. If infidelity is a relationship killer, so is financial infidelity which your husband is guilty of! If I may make a comparison of your relationship to something mundane, just to highlight your situation, I would say that when you go to a car dealership and buy a new car, you are excited about your purchase because the car is shiny, glitzy and fulfils a deep seated want within you which may have been festering for a long time. You drive the car home but within a few days it starts giving you trouble as something or the other does not seem to work properly. You take it back to the dealership and they fix the problem but in a few days you are back there with some other problem. This goes on a few times till you realise you have lemon in your hands and there is very little you or the dealership can do about it. So you end up jettisoning the car, cut your losses and go in for a new one. Well, frankly, your marriage is like that car. You may try your best but something or the other will keep going wrong. This is because of an inherent incompatibility  between you and your husband and the sooner this sinks in, the better for you. Your husband has realized that he drove you into your affair. That is why he is ready to forgive you. The fact is that he is like a drowning man who will clutch at any straw in his desperation to stay afloat! However, as most people say, life is short. You cannot tie yourself to a drowning man and miss out on living a full life. What Wiseman had to say makes a lot of sense. Also S2B had some wise words for you. As far as your infidelity is concerned, that indicates a weak spot in your psyche. You will have to attend individual counselling to determine how and why you let yourself succumb to such a weakness. Once you have undergone therapy and determined the underlying causes of your infidelity, you will be ready for a fresh start in life with someone new. Think about it. Warm wishes.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Just a Guy
Correction of errors.

[Sophie Norris]

Thank you for taking the time to give me your opinions. Just a guy, you actually seem to hit the nail on the head, and this is with me going into very little detail about our relationship. But I have always questioned our compatibility. I have just gone along with most things for an easy life to be honest. I don't like conflict (I'm sure no one does), but to avoid it I tend to just make the other person happy, with regards to work/relationships/perfect strangers. This won't have helped in the long run either. 

I am ashamed of myself for having the affair. My husband has took responsibility for this, but this is unfair, I am an adult and I am responsible for what I do. I am just sad that I didnt leave the house beforehand. This would have prevented a lot of pain. 

We have had two sessions with the counsellor now but I've asked to pause these sessions now. My husband seems to be struggling a lot with his identity and who he is and I've never seen him like this before. So we have agreed to not make any final decisions and he will have counselling alone. As aside from the state of my marriage, I am actually quite happy and content otherwise, whereas he truly hasn't been happy in years. He is irritable and he thinks he just wants me, but I have been right under his nose the entire time, yet he has not been content. 

I think as long as we can be kind to each other then we will be ok. Thank you so much for your time to reply x

[Just a Guy]

Hi Sophie, thank you for your response to my post. In writing it I may have been a bit blunt but my intention was not to hurt you. Sometimes it is necessary to call a spade a spade and even though it may be a bitter mouthful for the person at the receiving end to swallow it, much like a bitter medicine, it has to be done. With what you have revealed in your latest post about your personality is rather telling. I would think that you are some one who avoids conflict at all costs and this can lead to simmering resentment within you although outwardly you may appear calm and collected. This is a personality weakness which you must address with the help of a counsellor with a psychology background or preferably with a psychiatrist who will be able to analyse the underlying reasons for your condition or attitude if you like and then prescribe a course of treatment to help you overcome this negative behavioural response to external stimuli aka other peoples attitudes and actions which trigger this kind of response in you. Sweeping things under the rug will never get you a good and happy result. You have to be able to stand your ground for the things you believe in. As a Nurse you would have access to medical personnel trained in psychiatry and and should be able to arrange consultations accordingly. Also, your own training would have prepared you to observe the effects of attitudes like the one you are harbouring, on the person himself/ herself and the person(s) who trigger such behavioral reactions in the subject person. It would be worth your while to spend some time and money on this aspect for your own good. 

I would also like to ask you to introspect deeply on your relationship. If you come to the conclusion that it is basically flawed then you are not duty bound to continue with it till 'Death do you part'! As I said before life is short. You must seek fulfilment and a sense of purpose in your life. You do not have to tie yourself down to a life with your husband unless you are fully committed to him and you are sure that you will achieve your life's purpose with him. If you married him in haste( as it seems from your OP) then you will keep repenting at leisure for the rest of your life. Apart from anything else there has to be a deep love for him in your heart and that is something only you can vouch for. Guess that is all for the moment. Think about it. Warm regards.

[S2B]

Is it possible your husband has posted his story here? There is a similar story a guy posted in the marriage and life partnership section. His screen name is John Farraway.

Edited January 10, 2022 by S2B

[glows]

If you’ve decided to do marriage counselling already, that’s fine. It’s not going to change the fact that he’s been passive aggressive in the way he avoided the marriage and dumped much of the parenting on you. It also won’t negate the fact that he’s controlling and monitors your communication. If he can have access to you speaking with a third party, he can likely see everything you’re writing on this forum also. 

You agreed to a marriage you’re slowly finding you’re evolving and growing out of because it’s suffocating and not as fulfilling as you’d have wanted. It still doesn’t sound like your husband is clear about how he spends his money so there’s no real insight into his issues. With no insight or understanding it’s unlikely to change. 

The marriage lasting is dependant on how either of you see the future working as a team.

[understand50]

Sophie,

Some thoughts. 

One people and marriages are  not static.  As one who has been married for 50 years, and who also has gone though both financial and sexual infidelity, I can state that my wife is not the person I married all those years ago.  We both have grown up together, and it shows.  At this time, we have a good and loving relationship, but it always was not that way, and many here would have suggested divorce when our problems first came to a head. I am not going to re-hash my back story as I have posted it on Loveshack in the past.  Needless to say, people change, and can change for the better.   The trick is, "Do you both want to" and "Will you allow the time needed for the changes?"

So second point, things can change, and for the better, If both you and your spouse commit to the  marriage, and start searching for the way to change, it can be done.  Yes, you will stumble along with him during this, but if you have a over reaching goal it can be done.  In 10 years, I hope you will be fine on where you are, and not look back in regret on what could have been, or see your husband give another, after learning with you, what you want.  So, do not rush into divorce, look at everything.  From your posting I think he is trying to change, but remember, you have much to do as well.  Do not become the one and only victim here, as you both have done things.

OBTW,  In my opinion, your transgression is by far the worst of what  you both have done.  I hope, you are not using his financial transgression to sweep your  problems aside. For all the pain you feel about the money, he is feeling as well on your cheating.  From this place, hopefully you both can look at what you need and want form the other.  If you are to reconcile, you are both going to both do hard work.  Even if one of you was completely in the right.  This is not to down grade your feeling of betrayal for the financial infidelity.  What he did was back, but it does not cancel out what you did. 

I wish you luck....

[stillafool]

On 1/2/2022 at 1:18 PM, Sophie Norris said:

s hobby is triathlon. He has told me tonight he owes 23k.

Do you think he wants to stay married because he knows he's in heavy debt and without your share of the money he could not live well or do his hobbies anymore?  I would be suspicious of that if I were you and go ahead with the divorce.  He's commited financial infidelity and there may be more debt you don't know about.  Don't let him keep you in a marriage just to help him pay off his debts.  When you said you and the other man got physical are you saying you had sex with the OM?

[Sophie Norris]

No we never had sex. But I was unfaithful. It was a mistake. At the time I genuinely thought the marriage was over. And it may be. But there are so many problems. 

[stillafool]

1 hour ago, Sophie Norris said:

No we never had sex. But I was unfaithful. It was a mistake. At the time I genuinely thought the marriage was over. And it may be. But there are so many problems. 

Well you had an emotional affair that ended in a kiss.  Meanwhile your husband is no help to you and continually runs up debt for who knows what.  Has he given up this hobby?

[Wiseman2]

12 hours ago, S2B said:

Is it possible your husband has posted his story here? There is a similar story a guy posted in the marriage and life partnership section. His screen name is John Farraway.

Agree. The striking similarities, particularly, debt, triathlons and basically the entire history and issues.

 

[Sophie Norris]

Yes that is my husband. 

[Wiseman2]

Just now, Sophie Norris said:

Yes that is my husband. 

Ok, why don't you take all this to a marriage therapist where you can get objective professional guidance in the neutral and private setting of a professional's office? Both of you posting your side of this won't move you forward as much as deciding what can and can't be repaired in your marriage though professional help. You both also need to decide if either of you would prefer divorce or get more professional advice from a CPA and financial advisor.

[Sophie Norris]

We did take this to a marriage counsellor. And she was very good. I put this on here really to see other people views to see if anyone has been in a similar situation. And of course there are always three sides to every story, but actually his version is almost identical to mine. It isn't blaming or name calling. I had said to him that I found it helpful to see some advice so he did the same. I actually very much tried to be factual with the original post rather than "telling my side". But also my family and friends would of course side with me, his would of course side with him. And the marriage counsellor is very expensive,at a time when money is tight due to the debt. Also aside from the money I don't feel ready to have marriage counselling yet as I just don't know what I want. I also am doubtful of what my husband wants, despite what he says. I hear him. Andi believe he means it. Today. 

[vla1120]

On 1/7/2022 at 12:20 PM, Sophie Norris said:

We have had two sessions with the counsellor now but I've asked to pause these sessions now. My husband seems to be struggling a lot with his identity and who he is and I've never seen him like this before. So we have agreed to not make any final decisions and he will have counselling alone. As aside from the state of my marriage, I am actually quite happy and content otherwise, whereas he truly hasn't been happy in years. He is irritable and he thinks he just wants me, but I have been right under his nose the entire time, yet he has not been content. 

I think as long as we can be kind to each other then we will be ok.

Even though you betrayed one another, you are taking the right steps seeking MC, putting it on hold to have him go to IC and (most importantly) being kind to each other during this process. It seems as though he has taken you for granted for many years, but the prospect of losing you has opened his eyes. If both of you are willing to put in the work, that is more than half the battle. I will always vote for trying to save a marriage.

1 hour ago, Sophie Norris said:

Also aside from the money I don't feel ready to have marriage counselling yet as I just don't know what I want.

Perhaps a little IC for you would also help you sort out what you want? I know you said it is very expensive. In that case, hopefully you have a good support system and can turn to a few close people to talk things through and get some helpful feedback while you sort through what you want. I do believe this marriage is salvageable, if that is what both of you want.