My kids wont stay in their own beds.

[princessaurora]

We have 2 young children (5 and 8 yrs old ) No matter what we do they will not sleep in their own beds. They either end up in ours before they fall asleep for the night or they come in at some point . This usually results in one of us leaving and going to sleep in one of their beds because they sprawl out leaving us little room to be comfortable. We've tried moving them, they come right back or wake up crying hysterically. We've even tried leaving them to have our bed and go sleep together in theirs. But they somehow know and at least one of them joins us in less than 5 minutes. I give them melatonin to help them sleep, but they still make their way into our bed at some point.  I wouldn't mind it every now and then. but it's every single night.  I feel bad locking them out because my 8 yr old has major abandonment issues due to being a foster child before we adopted her and her brother. She just doesn't want to be alone. I read with her in her bed, stay with her till she falls asleep, but still she ends up in my bed. Then my son rolls in shortly after as if he heard her leave her room and come to mine. I just want some alone time with my husband so we can have adult time and get proper sleep. 

Any advice on how I can rectify this? 

 

[Wiseman2]

What does your pediatrician recommend? Don't medicate the remedies that may cause problems. .

Get an appropriate evaluation of their physical and mental health. Ask for a referral to a pediatric psychologist.

[princessaurora]

The pediatrician is the one who told me to put them om melatonin. She said my older one would grow out of it over time but it's been years and she's still so scared of abandonment.  The 5 yr old was only an infant when he came to us, so he hasn't been through the trauma she has. I think he's just mirroring her, honestly. If  he saw his big sister stay in her bed, he'd probably follow suit. . I have to bring her for an ADD evaluation next month, so I guess I'll mention it to the psychiatrist. 

[mark clemson]

Consider watching the show Supernanny.  I found it great for learning via induction and was quite glad to have "found" that show prior to raising my kids. She provides (IMO) some very good techniques for showing spine and setting rules/boundaries effectively in ways that many kids will respond to, including providing appropriate punishments without going overboard on them.  Not sure how well her techniques would work with a true ADD kid, but it's probably worth a look for you.

Edited January 10, 2022 by mark clemson

[Wiseman2]

On 1/8/2022 at 1:25 AM, princessaurora said:

I have to bring her for an ADD evaluation next month, so I guess I'll mention it to the psychiatrist. 

Yes, absolutely have her evaluated with this history.

It could be as simple as encouraging the behavior by getting in the kids beds and letting them rule the roost.

- Since both kids are acting out like this it seems likely that this is a family dynamic, an 8 year old girl should not be sleeping with your husband no matter what. 

Or she/they may have some other neurological, physical or psychiatric issues.

[stillafool]

Do you put them to bed 2 hours before you two go to bed?  They should be fast asleep by the time you go into your bedroom.

Edited January 10, 2022 by stillafool

[princessaurora]

It varies but no matter what time we put them to sleep or go to sleep ourselves by the morning they are always in my bed.  

[stillafool]

11 hours ago, princessaurora said:

It varies but no matter what time we put them to sleep or go to sleep ourselves by the morning they are always in my bed.  

Maybe have a set time each night for them to go to bed and each time they leave their room take them back to it.  They need a set time to go to bed so they get used to it and they will start getting tired around that time.

[princessaurora]

I talked to the doc this morning and she wants me to increase their dose of melatonin. I only give them one, but the serving size is 2. I just felt they were responding to one so didn't want to go to the max dose. But she said two might help them  sleep deeper so that they won't wake up in the middle of the night. Then once they get adjusted to that we can drop them to one, and eventually wean them completely. So that's the plan right now. 

Wish me luck!

 

[Pumpernickel]

7 hours ago, princessaurora said:

she wants me to increase their dose of melatonin

What? I wouldn’t do that. You’ve mentioned yourself that the older one has abandonment issues, so I believe you need to work on that first. Medicating them with a hormone, even if it’s supposedly safe even for children, is the last thing I’d do. I also doubt that increasing the dosage will work long term. She’ll always feel anxiety if the root cause isn’t treated, no matter the dosage.   The first thing I’d do is spend as much time with her as possible, and find a new pediatrician. 

[Dis]

On 1/10/2022 at 3:19 PM, mark clemson said:

Consider watching the show Supernanny.  I found it great for learning via induction and was quite glad to have "found" that show prior to raising my kids. She provides (IMO) some very good techniques for showing spine and setting rules/boundaries effectively in ways that many kids will respond to, including providing appropriate punishments without going overboard on them.  Not sure how well her techniques would work with a true ADD kid, but it's probably worth a look for you.

Yeah Super Nanny dealt with this issue all the time

 

She had the parents follow the steps of, the first time they get up into the bed, you gently talk to them and tell them it's time for bed and bring them  then tuck them back in. The 2nd time the same. The 3rd time and onwards you say nothing and continue to just physically put them back in bed, no tuck in. You just keep doing it over and over until they give up. Night after night. 

 

Good luck ❤️ 

[Wiseman2]

10 hours ago, Pumpernickel said:

What? I wouldn’t do that.  find a new pediatrician. 

Agree. Sleep hygiene, family dynamics and child psychiatric issues should not be ignored in favor of otc sleeping pills. Yes get rid of any doctor who tells you to medicate your kids as a solution to a much more complex problem.

[princessaurora]

We didn't start giving them melatonin because of abandonment issues. We started giving it to them because they would not go to sleep early enough to get up and go to school in the morning,  So it was to get them on a normal schedule. They are night owls but that doesn't work when they have to get on the bus at 7:30 am. The only way they will go to bed early is with melatonin. We have tried taking the TV away, lullaby music, read stories, even putting them in complete darkness with just the night light they will still not go to sleep till at least 10 or 11 unless they get their sleepy gummies. They find ways  to entertain themselves and stay awake, especially my 5 yr old. 

 

[stillafool]

37 minutes ago, princessaurora said:

  So it was to get them on a normal schedule.

How long did you try?  I would make 8:00 their bedtime every night with no exceptions not even on weekends.  My mom did that and I was on that schedule even in my teens believe it or not.  I was ready to go to sleep at 8.  It will take a while for them to adjust to it but they will if you adhere to the schedule.  Better than using drugs to get them to sleep.

[princessaurora]

8 is impossible. My daughter is sometimes at tutoring later than that. 9 would be ideal. 

We tried for awhile and when it became a problem our case worker and pediatrician recommended the melatonin. They only take 1 mg. 

[S2B]

An 8 year old at a tutors until after 8pm? Change it to the afternoon for tutoring.

then if they eat dinner by 5 or 6pm you can take them for some exercise time to get them tired. Even a walk around the neighborhood for 30-45 minutes is great - gives them time to talk to you about their day/their concerns. Family time, ya know?

next comes bath time - that signals the child that bedtime is near. Relaxes them - and in bed for story time. You place them in their bed - read a story - turn off the light and tell them they must stay in their own bed. Do not reward them when they come into your bed. You are the parent - simply tell them you love them but they must stay in their OWN bed! 

do this routine each night. You are the parent - you set the reasonable rules. Assure your child their bed is their own safe space.

why would your 8 year old have abandonment issues? Who left her? 

Edited January 13, 2022 by S2B

[Sioned]

I have a couple of suggestions that might help - but I have to be clear - I only have one child (now about 5  years old) and have very little sleep issues with him  - but we have a very "routine" routine and everyone sticks to it. Because whenever we don't - we get problems and Bedtime seems to get later and later and later.

Firstly - 8pm tutoring is not going to help. Why is that happening so late? is it really necessary? If an 8 year old child is still having to think and work at that time - of course they cant sleep early. Its really not fair to expect that.

Children need routine more than anything. And that has to be adhered to by you as well as them. You may find having a Night Time Routine Chart (loads on the internet) that each child has to complete - with things like getting into PJs, brushing teeth, going to the toilet, reading a story etc.  I use a magnetic whiteboard with little pictures that my son can slide from the To Do side to the Done side.

It makes them responsible - and also gives them a sense of achievement - but ALSO teaches them that these are the tings they need to do before they go to sleep.

Avoid TV. Its Stimulating and its hard on Children. My Son's behaviour Plummets whenever he watches it (Weekend mornings are Cartoon Time - but he certainly never watches any in the afternoon / evening - we would have a monster at Bedtime!).

I highly recommend something called a Time Timer - which could also be very useful in other areas if you have a child that actually has ADD. These are visual Timers - so they count down time with a colored disk. A child can literally SEE time counting down - whereas a 5 year old really doesn't understand what 30 minutes or 5 minutes is. It can help you teach your children how long they have to get ready for bed. Also a Gro Clock -those two things have been lifechanging for us at Bedtime and Morning for setting a routine and getting out of bedtime troubles.

Set a bedtime. The internet will help but roughly 7 /730 for a 5 yr olf - 8pm for an 8year old. Thats it. That is the time by which everything has to be done and the lights go off.  And STICK to it. If you have things planned after that - they need to change. At the moment you are basically expecting them to do something they simply are not built to do - stay up too late and still get up. At the end of the day it is your JOB as a parent to set the bedtime and see that it gets done. 9pm is NOT ideal for your children. whatever your reasoning for such a late bedtime - I suggest that is at the heart of the problem here and you probably need to adjust your thinking.

Now as for melatinin - it is a short term use thing - so I am frankly furious that a Doctor is suggesting this without very good medical reason. I have used it - but only when we traveled - so to help my child adjust to time zones  and get into a routine at either end, and for 2 nights when the clock changes - again to help reset the Bedtime Body Clock. YOur children wont sleep without it because they are conditioned that they get it to help them sleep.

I recommend looking into Positive Parenting Solutions - I learned such a lot from them and I feel it has made me a much better parent but changing my viewpoint from what I think my child SHOULD do, to what my child really needs ME to do - and what I should be expecting them to be able to do (Which is a LOT more than I thought). There will be a lot in there as well about helping your deal with abandoment issues - your daughter needs to learn that you will be there in the Morning - and you need to be the one to teach her that she needs to sleep and you will still be there when she wakes up. I certainly back others on basically the way Supernanny does this. Be gentle - be loving - give as many hugs and cuddles and words of encouragement - but be firm. YOU are the parent -and YOU set the rules - and you will always be there in the morning!

Finally - please give yourself and your husband a break here too. What you have done in adopting these two children is frankly remarkable! YOu are amazing people for simply turning up and stepping up - no one gives us  a manual on how to parent - but there are resources out there - such as PPS - which can help.

I hope some of that is at least vaguely useful

[ASG]

10 hours ago, S2B said:

 

why would your 8 year old have abandonment issues? Who left her? 

Did you not read the OP? The children are adopted. The 8 year old was a small child when the OP adopted her and her brother, who was an infant at the time, so doesn't have as much trauma. 


Body clocks don't really change, not matter how much you try. If someone is a night owl, they will always be a night owl and no amount of setting bedtimes will make them go to bed earlier. 

Even as a child, I would normally stay up until 11 ish, but, if I didn't have school in the morning, I'd also be waking up around 11. 

My brother, on the other hand, would often be asleep at dinner (around 8pm) and would be up by 7 (unless he had to go to school, which he hated, so didn't want to wake/get up).

This has never really changed. He's still more of a morning person than I am, I still sleep till 11 if left to my own devices, regardless of what time I went to bed. 

I don't have a lot of advice regarding them staying in bed, apart from, maybe, returning them to their beds every single time they come over to yours, and having conversations with them about how it's not ok to do that every day (or, really, in the case of the 8 year old, ANY day! She's old enough to stay in her own bed, even if she has a nightmare!)
 

[vla1120]

Does your daughter see a therapist for the abandonment issues? If you address this and she starts to feel more secure, I think this will go a long way toward fixing the issue. 

[princessaurora]

21 hours ago, S2B said:

An 8 year old at a tutors until after 8pm? Change it to the afternoon for tutoring.

then if they eat dinner by 5 or 6pm you can take them for some exercise time to get them tired. Even a walk around the neighborhood for 30-45 minutes is great - gives them time to talk to you about their day/their concerns. Family time, ya know?

next comes bath time - that signals the child that bedtime is near. Relaxes them - and in bed for story time. You place them in their bed - read a story - turn off the light and tell them they must stay in their own bed. Do not reward them when they come into your bed. You are the parent - simply tell them you love them but they must stay in their OWN bed! 

do this routine each night. You are the parent - you set the reasonable rules. Assure your child their bed is their own safe space.

why would your 8 year old have abandonment issues? Who left her? 

She has to have 2 hours of tutoring two nights a week because she is delayed in her learning. So sometimes the tutor does not finish up till 7:30. Then I feed her, she takes a bath, a little tv to destress from all the school work,  night night gummy and bedtime story.. 

She was abandoned by her parents due to drugs and them moved from a different foster home to us along with her baby brother..

[princessaurora]

20 hours ago, Sioned said:

I have a couple of suggestions that might help - but I have to be clear - I only have one child (now about 5  years old) and have very little sleep issues with him  - but we have a very "routine" routine and everyone sticks to it. Because whenever we don't - we get problems and Bedtime seems to get later and later and later.

Firstly - 8pm tutoring is not going to help. Why is that happening so late? is it really necessary? If an 8 year old child is still having to think and work at that time - of course they cant sleep early. Its really not fair to expect that.

Children need routine more than anything. And that has to be adhered to by you as well as them. You may find having a Night Time Routine Chart (loads on the internet) that each child has to complete - with things like getting into PJs, brushing teeth, going to the toilet, reading a story etc.  I use a magnetic whiteboard with little pictures that my son can slide from the To Do side to the Done side.

It makes them responsible - and also gives them a sense of achievement - but ALSO teaches them that these are the tings they need to do before they go to sleep.

Avoid TV. Its Stimulating and its hard on Children. My Son's behaviour Plummets whenever he watches it (Weekend mornings are Cartoon Time - but he certainly never watches any in the afternoon / evening - we would have a monster at Bedtime!).

I highly recommend something called a Time Timer - which could also be very useful in other areas if you have a child that actually has ADD. These are visual Timers - so they count down time with a colored disk. A child can literally SEE time counting down - whereas a 5 year old really doesn't understand what 30 minutes or 5 minutes is. It can help you teach your children how long they have to get ready for bed. Also a Gro Clock -those two things have been lifechanging for us at Bedtime and Morning for setting a routine and getting out of bedtime troubles.

Set a bedtime. The internet will help but roughly 7 /730 for a 5 yr olf - 8pm for an 8year old. Thats it. That is the time by which everything has to be done and the lights go off.  And STICK to it. If you have things planned after that - they need to change. At the moment you are basically expecting them to do something they simply are not built to do - stay up too late and still get up. At the end of the day it is your JOB as a parent to set the bedtime and see that it gets done. 9pm is NOT ideal for your children. whatever your reasoning for such a late bedtime - I suggest that is at the heart of the problem here and you probably need to adjust your thinking.

Now as for melatinin - it is a short term use thing - so I am frankly furious that a Doctor is suggesting this without very good medical reason. I have used it - but only when we traveled - so to help my child adjust to time zones  and get into a routine at either end, and for 2 nights when the clock changes - again to help reset the Bedtime Body Clock. YOur children wont sleep without it because they are conditioned that they get it to help them sleep.

I recommend looking into Positive Parenting Solutions - I learned such a lot from them and I feel it has made me a much better parent but changing my viewpoint from what I think my child SHOULD do, to what my child really needs ME to do - and what I should be expecting them to be able to do (Which is a LOT more than I thought). There will be a lot in there as well about helping your deal with abandoment issues - your daughter needs to learn that you will be there in the Morning - and you need to be the one to teach her that she needs to sleep and you will still be there when she wakes up. I certainly back others on basically the way Supernanny does this. Be gentle - be loving - give as many hugs and cuddles and words of encouragement - but be firm. YOU are the parent -and YOU set the rules - and you will always be there in the morning!

Finally - please give yourself and your husband a break here too. What you have done in adopting these two children is frankly remarkable! YOu are amazing people for simply turning up and stepping up - no one gives us  a manual on how to parent - but there are resources out there - such as PPS - which can help.

I hope some of that is at least vaguely useful

Thank you. I can't control the tutoring. She has 2 hours of it twice a week because she is delayed in that area. That's the only time the tutor can squeeze her in and she works wonderful with this person. It starts around 5-530 so she usually doesn't get home to close to 8. 

I will have to look into positive parenting I've heard of it but never explored it further. 

Appreciate your input;)

[princessaurora]

9 hours ago, vla1120 said:

Does your daughter see a therapist for the abandonment issues? If you address this and she starts to feel more secure, I think this will go a long way toward fixing the issue. 

No, we were about to start that and then the pandemic hit. But I will discuss that at her up upcoming appt for the ADD eval. I really thought she'd grow out of it since she's been with is for so long. But clearly she hasn't..😞

[S2B]

I would find a tutor that can work with the 8 year old from 3:30 - do not settle for anything less. Or IF she gets out of school at 2:30 - go from 2:40-4:30.

if the tutor won’t do early hours right after school (and a snack on the way there) don’t book the time slot! This is in your child’s best interest! Find a new tutor if needed. Hire a retired teacher if needed. Finishing at 8pm then dinner is way too late for this age group! 

be your child’s advocate. Say no to people who don’t offer what’s best for the child. Tell them exactly what you need for the child and accept nothing less.

your child will benefit seeing you advocate for her. 

she should be capable of eating by 6pm each night then starting the winding down scene for bedtime. As a habit - her mind will start to correlate the routine with bedtime. Encourage every night to stay in bed. Reward the next day if needed for a while. Maybe a cookie after breakfast. Maybe a special snack in her lunch box. Do not give the reward if it’s not earned. She will start to become proud of herself but it’s up to you to create a schedule that benefits them.

my hope is that you can make these adjustments for your family life/home life.

Edited January 14, 2022 by S2B

[Dis]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:33 PM, stillafool said:

How long did you try?  I would make 8:00 their bedtime every night with no exceptions not even on weekends.  My mom did that and I was on that schedule even in my teens believe it or not.  I was ready to go to sleep at 8.  It will take a while for them to adjust to it but they will if you adhere to the schedule.  Better than using drugs to get them to sleep.

Melatonin is a harmless over the counter supplement and it's a naturally occurring hormone so can't really classify it as a drug. It's actually a really safe sleep aid for even young kids. 

 

But agree with everything else you mentioned

[LavenderLady]

How much have you tried to reward them for staying in their own beds? If you keep dragging them back to their own beds no matter what time you or your spouse realize they are in your, they should just give up and stay at some point.