Searching for Answers (Long)

[SumGuy]

@AlmostOverIt  The explanation that seems the simplest to me is you are generally reactive and rarely proactive.  That is, she needs to initiate if it is going to happen, and you just happen to meet that woman every 2 or 3 years.  Frankly, I am (more like was) proactive and it can take 2 or 3 years to really meet someone you mesh with even when you are fishing the right ponds.

Nothing wrong with being more reactive/shy/reserved but here is how I see it breaks down:

Scenario 1 she is not interested, doesn't matter how proactive you are as even if you asked her out ain't going to happen, and she is glad you are not asking her out. 

Scenario 2 she is on the fence, may or may not be interested; not going to happen because you don't engage and even if you do your ability to break the ice may not be so great...especially if you are in some pick-up/bar whatever venue versus forming a genuine connection over shared interests/views. 

Scenario 3, she is interested, thinks you are a catch BUT you are reserved, may not pick up on her signals (which may well be subtle) so she may think you are taken or not interested in her.  She fears rejection as much as the next human so there is a good chance she decides to not make an advance.  So you are left with the bolder women or those who know more about your situation.  Good news is likely when it works out it can work well initially as they are into you...also it makes less work for you but you will end up doing a lot of waiting.

 

One final observation...your whole "Happy Gilmore" story (to me) points to you not having great break the ice skills.  I don't disagree with you that even if she didn't day that she may have likely thought that.  But you never really know but to so embellish or exaggerate is not a good reflection on your thought process.  If you can cultivate a self where it doesn't get stuck in your craw, and it is more amusing to you that will lead you too more success.  If someone actually said that to me about a movie I love and likely thank the for that point of information, it is good to know.  Respond to such off the cuff social rudeness with kindness, respectful disinterest, mild amusement instead of hurt, shock, or offense.  Simply water off of a duck's back.

[AlmostOverIt]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:03 PM, SumGuy said:

@AlmostOverIt  The explanation that seems the simplest to me is you are generally reactive and rarely proactive.  That is, she needs to initiate if it is going to happen, and you just happen to meet that woman every 2 or 3 years.  Frankly, I am (more like was) proactive and it can take 2 or 3 years to really meet someone you mesh with even when you are fishing the right ponds.

Nothing wrong with being more reactive/shy/reserved but here is how I see it breaks down:

Scenario 1 she is not interested, doesn't matter how proactive you are as even if you asked her out ain't going to happen, and she is glad you are not asking her out. 

Scenario 2 she is on the fence, may or may not be interested; not going to happen because you don't engage and even if you do your ability to break the ice may not be so great...especially if you are in some pick-up/bar whatever venue versus forming a genuine connection over shared interests/views. 

Scenario 3, she is interested, thinks you are a catch BUT you are reserved, may not pick up on her signals (which may well be subtle) so she may think you are taken or not interested in her.  She fears rejection as much as the next human so there is a good chance she decides to not make an advance.  So you are left with the bolder women or those who know more about your situation.  Good news is likely when it works out it can work well initially as they are into you...also it makes less work for you but you will end up doing a lot of waiting.

 

One final observation...your whole "Happy Gilmore" story (to me) points to you not having great break the ice skills.  I don't disagree with you that even if she didn't day that she may have likely thought that.  But you never really know but to so embellish or exaggerate is not a good reflection on your thought process.  If you can cultivate a self where it doesn't get stuck in your craw, and it is more amusing to you that will lead you too more success.  If someone actually said that to me about a movie I love and likely thank the for that point of information, it is good to know.  Respond to such off the cuff social rudeness with kindness, respectful disinterest, mild amusement instead of hurt, shock, or offense.  Simply water off of a duck's back.

I think this rings pretty true.

After I know someone or a group I will admit I think of things pretty quickly and have really good timing, I look at things differently and can usually say some pretty shockingly funny things at just the right time but I do hold back if there are people I don't really know. Thinking about it, I don't do that when I meet women initially, I assume the warm up period so I don't offend them or say something they might take poorly or read wrong. I have worked on being more proactive but with no real good results. I've gotten a few numbers but unless they show interest it was usually a ghost or fake number situation, which is fine, usually when I got the number I kind of knew where I stood so I have backed off a bit from being proactive. A few worked out ok but very few.

The last observation is true too. At times (maybe 1 out of 10 now), I would be quick and reply with something that I guess relayed funny and not in the least affected by the comment and it would play well. I would refer to it as being in the zone but I could never figure out what I was doing in those situations other than to some extent, I didn't care. Like I was happy but preoccupied with something else so when I went out I wasn't looking for anything. I can't quite repeat that by forcing myself not to care or not be looking because in the back of my mind I am looking even if I try not to. So I don't think I am relaxed and have a "don't care" attitude. I'd imagine maybe before even talking that is being read in how I carry myself.

Interesting thoughts.

 

[AlmostOverIt]

@YosemiteThat's exactly what shyness is. And you admit that people can see it because their first impression of you is that you're standoffish or rude (because you're being shy).

This reminded me of something from a while ago. I've been told 2 times that I remember by women that they thought I was cocky the first time we met. They were new gf's of friends. In both cases the first time I met them I spent less than maybe 1-2 minutes with them, I was introduced, smiled and said hi in passing as one of us was coming or going. When I hung out with them the first time for any period of time after that one said she didn't realize I was so funny and the other said I was completely different than she though, they both thought I was cocky when we first met. With both, it was a mirror situation, I asked what I did when all I did was smile and say hello and then one of us in under 2 minutes and we really didn't say much of anything else the first time the response from both was basically, 'That's true. I don't know, that was the impression that I got'.

I pretty much dismissed this because it was a simple hello and not much else said but I did find it odd.

This is an issue with your social skills, I wouldn’t call it shyness. It's good that you recognize that you need to work on this. Women are generally more intuitive than men and I'm going to guess that most men are more intuitive than you. People can tell when someone is going through the motions, not really listening, focused on themselves, and trying to impress. 

Probably spot on. That's why I try to correct it but not always easy.

I said that your main complaint is that you're not the ladies man that your friends are and can't date as easily as they can. In other words, you're complaining about not getting the same amount of attention or interest that your friends get. If you hadn't cut off my sentence halfway through, that would be clear.

I am not really complaining about the amount of attention they get vs me. I am more wondering why friendly interaction in a social situation goes in spurts for me, 0-60 back to 0.

Probably the best way I can think to explain it is, when it is at 0, someone will a woman's drink about to get knocked off the the table and grab it and the woman sees them and engages them right off the bat, "thank you, ha, ha that should probably be my last one. I am out for my birthday and we have been drinking all day", etc. and give them friendly open reception where in the same situation I seem to get an unusual amount of, "Oh. I wondered what you were doing" and then a head turn that gives the vibe of annoyed without much of any interaction, not even an "Oh, thank you for letting me know I was just about to knock my drink over". It's noticeable. To be clear I am not even really saying the majority of my friends get more than the occasional look or friendly welcome, but they don't get an initial closed-off reception I seem to get. When it's at 60, I get the same interaction they do. The difference is they might be traveling at 45 all the time and I am at either 0 or 60, if that makes sense and the 0 seems to be for long spurts. Probably doesn't. The only reason I mention my friends is that is my only gauge to compare if I am doing something different to get the reactions or general panning I get.

I do. You're a regular, ordinary, middle-aged guy. And on top of that you're shy and reserved with average or below average social skills. Why do you expect at least 1 woman to be interested/flirtatious/giving you a glance at almost every party or bar that you go to? That's ridiculous. You need to come down to earth. 

I absolutely don't expect that. If I said that somewhere I expect interest every time I go out that is definitely not what I meant in any way, I probably worded it poorly. In the summer I go out socially 1-3 times a week to parties or a bar. In the winter generally once a week maybe twice. I would expect a some interest maybe every 5-6 months or once every 10-15 times I go out is not out of line and reasonable. Keep in mind the parties I go to there are single women and they are around my age. I go to events like to watch my friend's kids in sports where there are single mothers and the bars I go to are more the older crowd type bars.

If you won't give up your goal to get as much attention from women as your friends do, the best option for you is a dating coach.

Good advice but again, my goal is not to get as much attention as my friends do. I originally asked about getting attention in spurts/getting attention at some times then long periods of absolutely nothing and what I might be doing to get more closed-off signals during those times vs times I do get attention. I don't think it's out line to be, I guess, more inviting to engage with and talk to in friendly conversation vs getting closed off signals before any interaction.

Dating coach is an option.

[AlmostOverIt]

On 2/14/2022 at 3:29 AM, basil67 said:

Remember how I said "it didn't happen"?   Now THIS ^^  is fully believable.  Here is where the truth lies.   

So let's get real:

Waiting for a welcoming signal is much more respectful, so I think you're doing the right thing there.   Of the guys who do approach random women in public, they have a massive fail rate.  Sure, they can get lucky, but there are also a lot of rejections.  The guys who do this need to have massive levels of confidence to cope with all the rejections...and so there are a hell of a lot of men who don't do this.   You are actually very normal in this respect.

You apparently do well with OLD.  Yes, OLD isn't ideal, but it seems that women do like you if you approach them in a manner they are comfortable with.  In this case, via social media. This is good. 

I think you're pinning far too much on shallow attributes.  You're over 6ft? Meh. You're fit? Meh. You've got a flash house?  Meh.   Sure, I'd like a guy to be employed, be healthy and have a roof over his head, but it's mostly about the person, not the possessions or the the luck of the draw of genetics.  To me, it's about vibing well, about having great conversations, similar goals in life, a positive outlook, an ability to overcome adversity, a ready smile, a sense of humour which works with mine.  

I'd advise you lead with the positives.  Look at what you can do and build yourself up from there. 

All good stuff.

You're over 6ft? Meh. You're fit? Meh. You've got a flash house?  

I was asked if I had a house, car, good job etc. and merely confirming those are not issues like I live with my parents or drive a rusted out car, or a less than stable job, that I think we can agree are generally red flags. If I wrote everything I wrote on here and then said I am 5'7, 345 lbs, it's easy to know that will change advice. I don't think I made commentary on here that my height, house, job or car should automatically give me any points, just that they are not a negative in general. Still, I am not even getting to the point where these come up in conversation.

I think you're pinning far too much on shallow attributes.

I am not pinning anything on them other than to say on here for the purpose of advice, I don't believe any of them are deal breakers. The issue is I am not getting to the point where any of them even come up. Like they didn't see me driving out in a rusted outsh*t box or I am off-puttingly ugly from across the room.

To me, it's about vibing well, about having great conversations, similar goals in life, a positive outlook, an ability to overcome adversity, a ready smile, a sense of humour which works with mine.  

That's really the point, no engagement means chance to see if we are vibing. I don't have a terrible time holding a conversation or making someone laugh in the right circumstance, that's not really the issue I am having. It's getting that initial interaction to begin with or the vibe of receptiveness to approach or interest in engaging in a conversation. Like trying to talk to someone at a party, if I ask how they know the host, instead of getting, "Work" and then her looking off in another direction, getting, "I worked with Jim at ABC Electric and then I just moved in their neighborhood and saw then when I was walking by. How do you know them?".

I feel confident I am good in a room, the problem I am having is getting in the room. I walk up and before I say a word the doorman says, "No". All I did is walk up. What throws me off is in spurts the doorman says, "Hey, what are you doing out here? Get in there!" and I can't figure out what I did differently in those times versus the "No" times before I have said a word.

Maybe it is the shyness but that is something the is there whether I get negative signals or open signals. I understand (but really don't get it) that women pick up on these things and think maybe that is it but how do I send out different signals I guess? I expect it comes from mindset and probably body language, expressions, I just don't know that I am doing differently at times that changes the perception.

By the way, I definitely appreciate the response and insight.

Edited February 16, 2022 by AlmostOverIt

[Pumpernickel]

Just a thought:

I’ve always picked up on “boringness” pretty quickly (not sure what it stems from; lack of self-esteem/humor; insecurity; no chemistry which isn’t anybody’s fault, but just throwing it out there)………Do you think you might be boring? Maybe? I used to work with a guy, years ago, who reminds me of you. Handsome, tall, successful, has everything one would want, incl nice house & car, and when he asked me out one day, I was kind of flattered, because I was like “isnt he out of my league? Doesn’t he have a GF?” ———- but boy was he boooooring. Don’t get me wrong he could maintain a conversation, he was “nice”, kind of, he kept the drinks coming, he looked nice, he was a gentleman & smelled good - the whole 9 yards - but he was not engaging at all whenever he spoke. I felt like I was on a date with a lifeless mannequin. Or a salesman. Or an engineer (he was an engineer actually)……. No sexual tension, no excitement. I couldn’t wait to get back home. But on the outside, he was perfect for western/American standards. Handsome, good income, all smiles, polite, mom would be thrilled, …… 

He then had a son with a GF a few years later, but he’s single again, I’ve heard. Not sure if they ever got married. I think they did. They bought a home together and all. I could never put my finger on it, but I would’ve never ever dated him in a million years. And honestly, he oozed the “bad sex” vibe. I knew sex would be boring with him. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 

[basil67]

45 minutes ago, AlmostOverIt said:

That's really the point, no engagement means chance to see if we are vibing. I don't have a terrible time holding a conversation or making someone laugh in the right circumstance, that's not really the issue I am having. It's getting that initial interaction to begin with or the vibe of receptiveness to approach or interest in engaging in a conversation. Like trying to talk to someone at a party, if I ask how they know the host, instead of getting, "Work" and then her looking off in another direction, getting, "I worked with Jim at ABC Electric and then I just moved in their neighborhood and saw then when I was walking by. How do you know them?".

I feel confident I am good in a room, the problem I am having is getting in the room. I walk up and before I say a word the doorman says, "No". All I did is walk up. What throws me off is in spurts the doorman says, "Hey, what are you doing out here? Get in there!" and I can't figure out what I did differently in those times versus the "No" times before I have said a word.

Maybe it is the shyness but that is something the is there whether I get negative signals or open signals. I understand (but really don't get it) that women pick up on these things and think maybe that is it but how do I send out different signals I guess? I expect it comes from mindset and probably body language, expressions, I just don't know that I am doing differently at times that changes the perception.

By the way, I definitely appreciate the response and insight.

OK, fair enough that you were just answering questions.  

Reading the rest, it seem like you're searching for a high hit rate.  But life isn't like that.  I could go to a party and chatter with some easily but others are like talking to a rock. And that's as a married woman and not trying to pick up.  It's totally normal .   Different doormen at different venues have bad days or have certain instructions from management depending on the vibe they are looking for.  

In short, have you ever thought that the problem may not be you?

[Wiseman2]

10 hours ago, AlmostOverIt said:

. I've gotten a few numbers but unless they show interest it was usually a ghost or fake number situation.

That's interesting. My sister and her friends used to give out the number of the local pizza place in college when guys approached them for numbers. It's pretty funny.

It's interesting how often men think getting numbers is getting somewhere.

Try to be more natural, relaxed and less self conscious. 

[Weezy1973]

9 hours ago, basil67 said:

 …Reading the rest, it seem like you're searching for a high hit rate…In short, have you ever thought that the problem may not be you?

This is exactly what I was thinking. I used to play poker quite a bit and you’d go through patches of getting no good hands and patches of seemingly nothing but good hands. Totally due to chance / variability. You’d feel “in the zone” when you were getting a lot of good hands, when in reality it was just normal probability playing out. 
 

There are so many variables out of your control @AlmostOverIt that expecting a steady “hit rate” is unrealistic. 

[SoulCat]

You come across as an 'injustice collector', as in you recount every occurrence with women where you've felt slighted, ignored, rebuffed, rejected or otherwise not appreciated.
You recall these interactions in minute detail.
The  words spoken are recalled verbatim.

Other such scenarios are completely fabricated by you, but told & retold as if they actually happened. They didn't, except in your head. But they do feed your overall feeling of resentment and having been done wrong.

To me, this is a deeply unattractive trait, and it tends to point towards some deep-seated insecurities and fears.
 
This, coupled with the bragging that you do - which you deny doing in real life, but generally people who have a tendency to brag, can't really help themselves - and I'm not surprised that most women aren't bowled over by how you present yourself.

Edited February 16, 2022 by SoulCat

[IrinaM]

^^^agree with soulcat. the $100 bill story is bizarre. i can't imagine a lot of women carry large denominations in our almost-cashless society, and those that do probably secure them properly in a wallet. Regardless, the stories of a woman dropping something and OP catches it and that fails to yield a romantic encounter, those stories strike me a certain way.  Women aren't beholden to like you because you pick something up off the floor.