mark clemson Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, pepperbird2 said: Isn't this really just "wahtaboutism"? A fair question. My point isn't that you don't have a right to be upset and must be 100% ok with cheating just because some other people drink booze or eat meat, it's that the depth of your "moral distaste/outrage" to the point where it's incomprehensible to you or feel (with little real merit IMO) that it must indicate a mental disorder of some kind, simply isn't shared by many folks. Just as the depth of moral outrage some vegans feel at the meat industry (and similar examples I gave) isn't shared by many. But no doubt even people who are "pro-cheating" (e.g. some niche and IMO not particularly competent therapists) know that it's unethical - that is because that's a fact. Just as big meat eaters know that they're killing animals. But their morality/"moral settings" allow for the benefit to them to outweigh the costs to others. Almost any moral view will find those with "different settings" there are even those who accept murder in specific circumstances as a remedy for (what would be in the minds of many) lesser slights, e.g. duels, and honor and revenge killings. I don't personally have to accept revenge killings and slavery, but clearly not everyone in the world feels the same way. Your OP question was about how it's possible. How was it possible for slave owners? Clearly while many people DO think it was a big deal, they didn't and felt it was "ok". Furthermore the large numbers of people who felt it was ok, make it clear that speaking generally morals must to some degree be influenced by culture, surroundings, and practical matters as well as no doubt personal "settings". So it is with cheating - it may be highly triggering and/or an incomprehensible moral outrage to SOME, but reality is that it in no way is to all. And so I suppose many must feel at least at some point that the benefits to them outweigh the "cost" of the unethical practice. (There are probably multiple factors in the cost/benefit "computation" that they are unconsciously doing.) Edited March 21, 2022 by mark clemson 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SingFish Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 3 hours ago, mark clemson said: But no doubt even people who are "pro-cheating" (e.g. some niche and IMO not particularly competent therapists) know that it's unethical - that is because that's a fact. People can explore ethical non-monogamy. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 ^^ certainly agree - while it could be considered a risky behavior in terms of potential impact to a marriage, open, ethical non-monogamy isn't cheating. Link to post Share on other sites
SingFish Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, mark clemson said: ^^ certainly agree - while it could be considered a risky behavior in terms of potential impact to a marriage, open, ethical non-monogamy isn't cheating. Yes, and the time to think and talk about it is before marriage. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Foxhall Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 A long term partner may restrict a mans freedom, the man may miss his previous nomadic ways and feel tempted by the occasional naughty liaison or escape, Personally I think I am a decent enough bloke, but I am also a sinner for want of a better word, Link to post Share on other sites
Prudence V Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 17 hours ago, SingFish said: People can explore ethical non-monogamy. Depends what “need” the infidelity is addressing. If it’s just that someone wants sexual variety beyond the LTR they’re in, fair enough. But many EMRs are about more than (or other than) sex - especially “emotional affairs”, where sex might not feature at all. Link to post Share on other sites
Bittersweetie Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 In my case, it was a lot of small choices that grew upon themselves. I crossed each boundary, one at a time, thinking "well just this is okay." Also my husband and I were living 2000+ miles apart at that time, which made it less "bad" in my eyes...I'm not sure I could have compartamentalized everything as much if I saw him daily. In addition to the bad small choices, I also became more and more selfish and self-centered and started to pin everything that was wrong on my husband, making some of my personal issues his fault. And he was angry all the time and I felt he put his work first so I could do something for myself (no self-reflection on maybe he was angry/working because of me or our relationship). Finally I was more conflict avoidant than I thought. Looking back I never really addressed my issues with him or our marriage in a thorough manner. All of this created a perfect storm of mental gymnastics in my head where I convinced myself that my hurtful choices were "okay." Obviously they weren't and both me and my husband paid a price for my choices. There are times where I don't fully understand how I could've thought what I was doing was even remotely okay...WTH was wrong with me??? I hate that I did that and I hate that I hurt my husband so much. That hate will probably never go away so I try to focus it on continued growth and empathy. I don't picture myself ever making those kinds of choices again because of all of the work I've done on myself and learning better, healthier coping skills. I do think true change comes from taking full responsibility for one's actions but it's much easier to blame others or situations rather than look deeply at oneself. Looking in the mirror and saying "I'm the bad guy in this situation" is something most people avoid at all costs. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, SingFish said: Yes, and the time to think and talk about it is before marriage. As much as I agree with this statement ideally, it's also not that simple. For example a person could feel perfectly content with sex only with their partner at 26, but then at 36 start feeling more interested in sex with other (add'l) partners. Ideally that doesn't happen, but I suspect it often does. People are moving targets that slowly (and sometimes rapidly) change over time. I think a lot of marriages are impacted in one way or another as partners change in ways that impact the initial parameters/assumptions of the marriage. And this is recognized to some extent - so the in sickness and in health business and so forth... but I think a lot of possible directions of change and the reality of dealing with the "impact" of changes simply aren't on people's minds when they marry. At any rate, I don't want to start a T/J debate on the topic because I do think that in theory you're absolutely right here. Edited March 22, 2022 by mark clemson 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SingFish Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 31 minutes ago, mark clemson said: At any rate, I don't want to start a T/J debate on the topic because I do think that in theory you're absolutely right here. I don't think it's off-topic at all, I wish I had been more open minded about an open marriage years ago. Ethical non-monogamy would have helped my marriage. We got divorced instead, which wrecked our family life. On 3/21/2022 at 8:26 AM, pepperbird2 said: I'm not saying that what I do to handle relationship conflict is all that wonderful either. I sort of put it in a box on the proverbial shelf until I have the mental energy to address it. I wish I'd done that. But it's easy with hindsight. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
FMW Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) We can't always understand what someone else does, even if they try to explain it to us. Infidelity ends a lot, if not most, relationships for that very reason. The betrayed doesn't want to spend the future trying to come to terms with something they likely never will be able to reach any acceptance of. The ability of having a balanced relationship is likely destroyed for good. The betrayed is often going to look at the unfaithful partner as flawed and less than. That's not conducive to a loving partnership. Infidelity can't be erased, the questions and resentment will continue to pop up. Feelings don't stay in boxes. Edited March 22, 2022 by FMW Link to post Share on other sites
PotatoHead Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) So many different reasons people cheat, every case is unique but it never makes it right. I have yet to be in a relationship where either party was 100% faithful, there were fundamental issues in every one where we just weren't compatible to begin with that eventually led to it. I made an absolutely terrible choice in the person I married, she was a narcissist. But I thought it was the best I could do at the time and before you know it, we had kids. The relationship died early on but we tried keeping it together for the kids. She had emotional affairs for years, eventually I stopped caring and then I found someone who was more compatible for me. I ended the marriage as soon as I could figure out how. I realize now I should have done things differently, ended the marriage long ago and before I was ever open to meeting someone new. I will never cheat or be dishonest towards a partner again. Fast forward 1 year into my new relationship with this person who I thought was my soulmate, perfect for each other in every way... and she cheated on me with a coworker. I found out she also had a habit of being dishonest. Now another year in we are both working through it and trying to be better for each other but I don't know if it's salvageable. I'm tempted to give up on relationships altogether at this point. Edited March 22, 2022 by PotatoHead 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SingFish Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 31 minutes ago, PotatoHead said: I'm tempted to give up on relationships altogether at this point. I know what you mean! But people have changed, so the nature of their relationships changes I suppose. I'm not sure I would want to commit to someone 100% now, or be caring for them if they get sick etc. Maybe marriage will become obsolete? People can draw up other contracts about possessions and children I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
PotatoHead Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, SingFish said: I know what you mean! But people have changed, so the nature of their relationships changes I suppose. I'm not sure I would want to commit to someone 100% now, or be caring for them if they get sick etc. Maybe marriage will become obsolete? People can draw up other contracts about possessions and children I guess. It's really not worth the hurt and anguish people will put you through. Definitely not worth getting married and going through divorce again at some point. I'm getting what joy I can from a relationship but can no longer let my guard down or commit long term knowing I will probably get hurt again. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
FMW Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 I have absolutely no interest in ever marrying again, but I'm in a relationship with a really great guy that I do trust to be honest and faithful. Honestly it probably wouldn't hurt any less that we're not married if I was betrayed, but at least there would be no financial or legal ties to have to work through to end it. I'm done with those, but I'm not done with love. Happiness, at least for me, isn't possible without risk. And to tie that all back to the thread topic, we never can know what is in someone else's head - so there's the risk. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
vla1120 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 21 hours ago, SingFish said: Maybe marriage will become obsolete? People can draw up other contracts about possessions and children I guess. My millenial daughters all believe marriage is an outdated societal expectation in which they have no interest. Instead, they believe you can be committed to someone, cohabitate, keep your finances completely separate (whomever paid for the furniture, TV, etc., gets to keep it) and if you decide to go your separate ways, you can do so with no legal ties/obligations. I would imagine children can make it more complicated, but none of my daughters plan on having kids either, so...... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, vla1120 said: My millenial daughters all believe marriage is an outdated societal expectation in which they have no interest. Instead, they believe you can be committed to someone, cohabitate, keep your finances completely separate (whomever paid for the furniture, TV, etc., gets to keep it) and if you decide to go your separate ways, you can do so with no legal ties/obligations. I would imagine children can make it more complicated, but none of my daughters plan on having kids either, so...... Well I know several young women in my family have said the same until one of their bfs shows up with a ring and pops the question. Then all of that goes right out the window and the next thing you know after marriage they're pregnant and slap happy about it. So chances are you will get a son-in-law and some grand kids in the future. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
vla1120 Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 21 hours ago, stillafool said: Well I know several young women in my family have said the same until one of their bfs shows up with a ring and pops the question. Then all of that goes right out the window and the next thing you know after marriage they're pregnant and slap happy about it. So chances are you will get a son-in-law and some grand kids in the future. Hope springs eternal (fingers crossed!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author pepperbird2 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 On 3/22/2022 at 12:45 PM, SingFish said: I wish I'd done that. But it's easy with hindsight. It's not that great of a coping strategy, but right now, it's what I have. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author pepperbird2 Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 On 3/23/2022 at 11:13 AM, vla1120 said: My millenial daughters all believe marriage is an outdated societal expectation in which they have no interest. Instead, they believe you can be committed to someone, cohabitate, keep your finances completely separate (whomever paid for the furniture, TV, etc., gets to keep it) and if you decide to go your separate ways, you can do so with no legal ties/obligations. I would imagine children can make it more complicated, but none of my daughters plan on having kids either, so...... Mine are the same. No grand kids in my future I guess. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Just a Guy Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 Hi Pepper, guess by now many of your questions/doubts may have been answered with the detailed, varied and thoughtful views expressed by so many people with divergent but very meaningful content! I would like to add my bit to the conversation for what it's worth. To put it in a nutshell I would like to summarize my view on the question raised by you in the hope that it sheds some light on the subject and add to the body of collective knowledge that so many have shared here. Firstly, I think that the most common reason people cheat is that they have a sense of entitlement that enables them to over ride any pangs of conscience they may have coupled with the fact that an easy opportunity presents itself. Like an eagle soaring on the upward lift of a thermal they easily slip into affair mode and the rest I'd history. Such people rarely, if ever, suffer from remorse and at every step of the way, they justify to themselves why they are entitled to their little paradise. Secondly, there are those who have a basic flaw in their character or personality, which, when triggered by some external factor, such as meeting someone who ticks all the boxes for them, are smitten immediately and a torrid affair is the result. This I'd something like someone who has a chemical affinity to alcohol who has been a teetotaler all his/ her life but on having his/ her first drink is transformed into an alcoholic. Admittedly, there are few folks of this kind but they do exist. Thirdly, there are women( men are not similarly affected) who cheat on their spouses as a form of a cry for help because they feel neglected by their husbands who they otherwise love dearly. Here the husbands may be career minded guys busy climbing the corporate ladder. Then there are the incidental one night stand affairs where close proximity to a member of the opposite sex leads to sexual tension between the two and results in a so called 'quickie' which both the participants may regret later on. It is entirely physical with no emotional content to it. Then of course there are those who are wired to cheat. They are the ones with no conscience at all and no loyalty to their spouses. These are some of the people involved in cheating on their spouses for reasons as explained. I have not gone into details explaining the context of these various examples as I am short of time at present, but I hope I have made some sense and clarified to some extent on your questions/ doubts about how folks can cheat on those they supposedly love. Warm regards. Link to post Share on other sites
Just a Guy Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) As an addendum I would like to say that there is the category of folks, especially women who suffer from low self esteem. Such women are ideal candidates for predatory males on the look out for vulnerable females. There are many examples of such women on this website who have fallen victim to players of this category. I have browsed extensively on so called alternative lifestyle websites and I came across a case of a lady who, had this character or personality flaw in her where some particular men would trigger a sexual response in her when she was in their presence which was overwhelming. When this feeling overcame her, she was prepared to have sex with the man right on the spot even if she was in the presence of others. To add insult to injury she was happily married and completely in love with her husbsnd yet this effect, which was like a hypnotic effect on her would completely overpower her and she could barely control herself especially in the presence of others. There are also cases where women who suffer from Bi- Polar disorder are known to have episodes of promiscuity which are generally beyond their control. It can only be controlled with suitable medication but this has some unwelcome side effects. Thus they end up disregarding their medication regime. Hope this helps some. Warm regards. Edited April 4, 2022 by Just a Guy Correction of typing errors. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 On 3/24/2022 at 12:13 AM, vla1120 said: My millenial daughters all believe marriage is an outdated societal expectation in which they have no interest. Instead, they believe you can be committed to someone, cohabitate, keep your finances completely separate (whomever paid for the furniture, TV, etc., gets to keep it) and if you decide to go your separate ways, you can do so with no legal ties/obligations. I would imagine children can make it more complicated, but none of my daughters plan on having kids either, so...... Depending on where you live, cohabitation of a certain length can automatically place you in the de facto (or common law) spouse category whether you like it or not. This comes with legal liabilities/entitlements that range (depending, again, on your jurisdiction) from EXACTLY the same as those of marriage, to slightly less than (but still more than "nothing"). That's the case where H and I live, anyway. We have no issue with that (or with marriage, really), but aside from simplifying the proof of relationship documents, getting married really hasn't changed any of our legal obligations. Link to post Share on other sites
mark clemson Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Just a Guy said: Thirdly, there are women( men are not similarly affected) who cheat on their spouses as a form of a cry for help because they feel neglected by their husbands who they otherwise love dearly. Here the husbands may be career minded guys busy climbing the corporate ladder. Just a note - I strongly suspect men can sometimes indeed be affected by this as well. Depends on the specific man, their personality, "emotional needs," moral views/attitudes toward cheating, etc. Edited April 4, 2022 by mark clemson Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 5 hours ago, Just a Guy said: Thirdly, there are women( men are not similarly affected) who cheat on their spouses as a form of a cry for help because they feel neglected by their husbands who they otherwise love dearly. Here the husbands may be career minded guys busy climbing the corporate ladder. How interesting. It seems then that in gay male relationships, emotional neglect is never an issue... 🤣 Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted April 4, 2022 Share Posted April 4, 2022 The one woman I knew who had cheated (at least once, but I suspect more) was a "feelings chaser". Her feelings at any given moment were the most important thing and nothing else really mattered. So when she was out and felt attraction to another man, she thought that was a really big deal and meaningful and she should follow through on those feelings. Although she knew it would be perceived of as "wrong" by most, she didn't see it that way because her feeling of attraction was the most important thing. And this didn't only pertain to her romantic life. In her professional life too, she couldn't keep a job / career because inevitably she would get bored and jump to the next thing that garnered her interest only to switch up again. I remember distinctly asking her once "what are your core values" and she couldn't really give an answer. She said, "that's a fluid concept".... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts