Not sure if I should end it (threads merged)

[Uruktopi]

You are the one and only who can draw the line of what is not only acceptable to you but also what should be acceptable and what not.

To decide it based only in what you feel in a certain moment  and not also as a criteria will make that line less meaningful and of a poor help  for your life choices.

Being loyal to yourself IMO means to be loyal to the values of your choice, beyond and over each turn of the wind, at least for what is important.

That said, I can´t advice you but I can tell you what my choice was when the time came to demmand me to choose.

I did not settle for less than the kind of relatonship that is for me worthy. I accepted some years of loneliness spent in leaning to choose better than before. And  I found later the love of my life by when I had scarce hopes about.

I didn´t regret it.

Best wishes.

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Uruktopi

[Agentra]

Let go, friend. Not only did she step out on you, stab you in the back and humiliate you, having been through the entire lying, gaslighting and trickle-truthing thing, to me it was honestly the worst kind of ABUSE I have ever experienced. It leaves you scarred and traumatised. Be kind to yourself. She won't be. 

[ExpatInItaly]

12 hours ago, PotatoHead said:

 What are the chances that she is doing this only because she likes the attention or it makes her feel good about herself, and not because she is actually interested in or attracted to this man, or thinks about them sexually?

Slim, I'm sorry to say. 

Most people are not going to engage in that sort of chatter with someone they aren't attracted to on some level. So I would wager she was attracted and interested, but didn't follow through because she knows it would blow up her relationship. 

[Wiseman2]

Sadly it seems almost like you've had one foot out the door for a while. Even after relocating your family to her area.

[glows]

17 hours ago, PotatoHead said:

 

These past two years, my life has improved dramatically from what it was, as I made it out of a very bad marriage.  I can't say for sure if this is my best life, but it's better than anything else I've ever known.  My new relationship is generally pretty amazing.  I do love her dearly.  About 95% of the time that we are together, I am happy.  Which is why I'd like to be able these thoughts from my original post behind me somehow and stay together if it's possible.  Sometimes I feel resentment and worry that it doesn't allow me to be the best or most caring BF that I could be.  I know that I would benefit from taking time alone to heal, but I also don't want to lose her in the process.

What is a good place to start in finding a therapist, are there any good resources?   What could I possibly give her as reasoning to suddenly want to end things after all this time of reassuring her that I would keep trying and that we would make it through anything?

Regarding therapy ask your doctor and he’ll refer you to a person or place he may feel is a good start or research and read reviews of therapists in your area. Most will specialize in different issues. You may benefit from it if you feel you didn’t recover from your divorce as much as you could have before starting a new relationship.

Going by your previous thread you seem burnt out, torn, lukewarm. At times you seem invested in this and at others pulling away yourself and causing just as much doubt and damage. There’s a high likelihood she is discontented with your relationship as well.

Whenever I hear of ongoings pushing boundaries like this, inappropriate chit chat, look see here and there or sneaking glimpses of an ex and reminiscing too hard about alternative situations I have to stop and question just how pained that person must be. To me, she seems she’s struggling just as badly as you are.

You had written this in the previous thread:

Quote

We are unable to move forward in our relationship because we both have kids, so moving in together is out of the question for a very long time.  I am unsure whether I would ever want to get married again, but I know she wants to.  Some days she gets upset because I prioritize my time with my own kids, or don't make an effort to get them all together with hers.  I am just not ready to get them involved, as I am trying to focus on my relationship with my kids, as well as my own wants and needs.  Having just gone through a divorce, this is also my chance for a fresh start and yet I feel my life already revolves around this new relationship and what she wants

You’re both hanging in limbo with little to no hopes or goals or defined future to be excited about with one another. To be blunt you’re each other’s filler. It’s a go nowhere relationship and I say that sparingly in the sense that you both haven’t decided what to make of it and yet seem tremendously insecure both in yourselves as individuals and with one another. It’s very shaky ground. 

[PotatoHead]

Thank you for all of the responses.  It is taking a lot of time and thought, but I am starting to get some clearer direction of what is best for me.

 

11 hours ago, BrinnM said:

This is true. Totally depends on personality.
 

I also want to add that if that was with a coworker, she might have felt uncomfortable rejecting him directly. If this is someone you have to see every day at work, you don’t want to be harsh or cold. Flirting back and engaging is a different story, though. But either way, if you can’t get over it, @PotatoHead, see my post above.

This was actually part of the reasoning she gave that things got out of hand.  They had worked together and chatted for quite some time, just being friendly and not flirting at all according to her.  In my opinion it crossed a line when he started messaging her and she didn't tell me about it, but again it was just regular small talk at first.  She thought he was a friend and so when he started pushing things a bit further, she didn't want to make things weird by shooting him down too harshly.  She admitted he took things too far at work one time and slapped her butt while passing by, and she did tell him not to do that again although the reason she gave him is that she didn't want anyone at work to see.

He started flirting with her regularly at work, asking if she wanted to "hang out" after they got off which is 11pm.  She always would give him an excuse why she couldn't.  He could tell she was going through an emotional time one day, and used it to his advantage.  That was when he messaged her inappropriately that night, and she had been drinking so in her poor judgment she messaged him back.  He told her things like how she made him "aroused" and she claims her responses were mostly passive, things like "I bet I do".  But then when he would ask to come over she would again give an excuse.  As things escalated she really didn't know how to put a stop to it supposedly, she worried he might get more aggressive.  He messaged her again another night, saying things like he would show her who's boss, she said she could handle it etc.   But again says she made an excuse why he couldn't come over.

He continued to flirt with her at work for a couple of weeks, there were some other messages I saw that weren't blatantly sexual but were playful, talking about hair pulling.  She also had a snapchat for a short while with a few of her coworkers on it, not just males, but claims she never talked to any of them or sent any pictures on it.  But she claims after those last messages, she realized what she was doing and the next time he came up to flirt, she told him they shouldn't talk like that anymore and it was stupid that they started in the first place.  He agreed seeing as he had a pregnant GF at the time.  After that they didn't really talk anymore, he moved areas at work and she claims she hasn't seen him since.

 

6 hours ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Slim, I'm sorry to say. 

Most people are not going to engage in that sort of chatter with someone they aren't attracted to on some level. So I would wager she was attracted and interested, but didn't follow through because she knows it would blow up her relationship. 

This was my thought too, although since they were "friends" for a while and given the details above, maybe it was more of a mental or emotional connection that made her open to it.  One thought that I cannot stand is if she ever thought about him when we were in bed together.  Or at all, really.

 

Anyway, just thought I should share some more detail to everything that went on since I never have posted it before.  These are the things that replay over in my head every single day.

[PotatoHead]

18 minutes ago, glows said:

You’re both hanging in limbo with little to no hopes or goals or defined future to be excited about with one another. To be blunt you’re each other’s filler. It’s a go nowhere relationship and I say that sparingly in the sense that you both haven’t decided what to make of it and yet seem tremendously insecure both in yourselves as individuals and with one another. It’s very shaky ground.

I can't really speak for where she is at.  She understands now that we need to take things slowly for the kids, to allow trust to rebuild etc.  She does not know the mental anguish I am going through.  I feel that she is completely committed to me and wants nothing more than to be with me and make me happy, to have a future together.  Yes, at times we are both insecure and I know she worries about our future.

[PotatoHead]

13 hours ago, BrinnM said:

Well, no offense, but this should be your least concern. You decide for yourself if a break-up is your best option in the long run (and I always advocate for thinking long-term, rather than short-term), for you and your children, and then you do it. Nobody enjoys breaking up, but it sometimes has to be done. We have all done it, or most of us anyway.

You let her know what your decision is, and I think in your case the explanation will come quite easily, because it's based on the truth: You have been struggling to forget and forgive a certain violation of trust that went on for a while, and there is a chance that it would still be an ongoing thing, had you not seen certain messages on her phone. (I hope I remember this correctly) – I think that's a more than reasonable explanation. What other reasoning would she need?

I care about her, a lot.  I have a habit of putting other people's needs before my own when I care about them.  I feel awful for even thinking about doing this, I really can't imagine life without her right now.   If that weren't the case, I probably would've ended things a long time ago.

[glows]

Are you attracted to her? I’m speaking both intellectually and physically.

Edited April 1, 2022 by glows

[PotatoHead]

3 minutes ago, glows said:

Are you attracted to her? I’m speaking both intellectually and physically.

Yes, absolutely

I might add that we are incredibly compatible sexually.  I haven't had a thought about anyone else since we've met.  I do however have the problem where I tend to visualize her with someone else.  This probably leads to me having unpleasant thoughts after the fact, or bringing up my fears over and over again now that she was technically unfaithful.

Otherwise I would say we are an almost perfect match, intellectually as well.

Edited April 1, 2022 by PotatoHead

[BrinnM]

14 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

I care about her, a lot.  I have a habit of putting other people's needs before my own when I care about them.  I feel awful for even thinking about doing this, I really can't imagine life without her right now.   If that weren't the case, I probably would've ended things a long time ago.

You sound awfully overwhelmed and unhappy, though, sorry to say. And your most recent statement 👇🏼 is telling me something, namely that this is causing you way too much pain. 

 

26 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

One thought that I cannot stand is if she ever thought about him when we were in bed together.  Or at all, really.

I can almost guarantee you that this is something you’ll never be able to get out of your head entirely. Even with tons of therapy the chances will be slim to none. And this is because you’ll never know the full truth, you’ll never know how far they really went, and you seem to be a little bit obsessive about these thoughts. Not saying this is not normal. It is!!
If we don’t know 100 % of the facts surrounding an event or a situation, some people (it’s a personality trait) tend to ruminate. And it doesn’t stop. This can be compounded by certain factors as well. See this:

 

I do however have the problem where I tend to visualize herwith someone else.  This probably leads to me having unpleasant thoughts after the fact, or bringing up my fears over and over again now that she was technically unfaithful.

I think you’re in a lot of pain, and the pain won’t go away. You will always wonder, and you will always resent her to a certain extent; and that’s understandable. You’ve given up a ton for this relationship, and in return she thanked you by disrespecting you. I honestly think you can’t move on from this one. You can try to ignore it, sweep it under the proverbial rug, and this might actually work for a while, but it’ll resurface periodically, as you have experienced yourself. Because you’ll never know what really happened. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by BrinnM

[glows]

16 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

Yes, absolutely

I might add that we are incredibly compatible sexually.  I haven't had a thought about anyone else since we've met.  I do however have the problem where I tend to visualize her with someone else.  This probably leads to me having unpleasant thoughts after the fact, or bringing up my fears over and over again now that she was technically unfaithful.

Otherwise I would say we are an almost perfect match, intellectually as well.

Is this something you do with other partners in the past or just with her? Frankly she was texting some guy and it never got further than that. Where it should have stopped was right there after it was found out and both of you might have healed and rebuilt trust. Instead checking her phones and reading first hand all the messages got out of hand and TMI. Instead of focusing on your relationship together, this guy became your focus and a party of two became a party of three. The irony is this man is out of the picture and in your head you’re still seeing three. You, her and him. 

Focus on your relationship if you have a habit of checking out or sabotaging what you have. This keeps coming up because you can’t let it go. And if you cannot be realistic and move on with your life. I suggest you do seek therapy or at least come to terms with why you linger unhappy or why you search for unhappiness as if it’s a defense mechanism for you - you not allowing yourself to be content and satisfied with a relationship. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by glows

[PotatoHead]

The visualization is something I've done with others in the past as well.  I've read up on this and it seems to be pretty normal, it doesn't cause me any distress during the act but I could see it having negative effects afterwards since I do have the real life fears and worries now and it is not just fantasy.

I agree with you @glows if it really did just stop at the texting, it's something that should be able to be gotten over.  The problem is that trust was broken, I don't know if I can believe anything she's told me and I've caught her in so many lies now.  So I won't ever know for sure if it stopped at texting, if she didn't really initiate or want something from this other guy all while I thought we were happy and she was madly in love with me.  If she is capable of that kind of deception then it's likely to happen again and is probably a deal breaker for me.

I don't believe that I search for unhappiness or sabotage my relationships, although it is something I have thought about quite a bit.  Why can't I just move on and be happy and focus on building this relationship.  I think it's because I have gone through similar trauma in all of my past relationships.  I have learned over and over again that I can't trust anyone, and as soon as I do and I get comfortable and happy, that is when they will hurt me the most.

Edited April 1, 2022 by PotatoHead

[dramafreezone]

21 hours ago, PotatoHead said:

If a woman who is in a committed relationship responds to messages from another man, and flirts with them or leads them on when they make advances, only shutting them down when they suggest actually hooking up.  What are the chances that she is doing this only because she likes the attention or it makes her feel good about herself, and not because she is actually interested in or attracted to this man, or thinks about them sexually?

 

Does it matter which one it is?  Neither is a positive comment on that woman's viability as a good relationship partner.

She should feel that she can get that attention from her boyfriend, and if not she ends the relationship rather than engage in behavior that reflects a lack of integrity on her part.

[PotatoHead]

5 minutes ago, dramafreezone said:

Does it matter which one it is?  Neither is a positive comment on that woman's viability as a good relationship partner.

She should feel that she can get that attention from her boyfriend, and if not she ends the relationship rather than engage in behavior that reflects a lack of integrity on her part.

You make a good point.  One is just easier to deal with.  But the more I talk about this, the more I feel like I'm only hurting myself more to continue trying.

[vla1120]

29 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

The problem is that trust was broken, I don't know if I can believe anything she's told me and I've caught her in so many lies now.  So I won't ever know for sure if it stopped at texting, if she didn't really initiate or want something from this other guy all while I thought we were happy and she was madly in love with me.  If she is capable of that kind of deception then it's likely to happen again and is probably a deal breaker for me.

You mentioned earlier that you tend to put others before yourself. That's fine when it comes to your kids. When you're talking about the woman you're potentially planning to spend the rest of your life with - this 👆👆👆 does not equate. Because of my tendency to put the needs of others before my own, I spent the past 40 years with the wrong partners. Now I am 61 years old and worry that I may never know the kind of relationship I have deserved my entire life - someone who treats me as well as I treat him, someone who won't lie to me, gaslight me, and make me feel insecure and unworthy. Why would you invest your precious time with someone you cannot fully trust?

You only get one ride on the merry-go-round of life. Don't waste it. Oh, and as far as feeling like you are betraying her if you leave her, because of your previous promise to not abandon her regardless of what happens - didn't she also make promises to you that she has already broken? Put yourself first for once, THEN make your decision. 

[Wiseman2]

Try not to worry about the flirting. You do not want what she wants. Marriage or living together and you have been debating ending it for quite some time.

You don't have to find reason to make her the villain. Just tell her you are focusing on work, your kids, co-parenting and getting yourself in a better place.

Set each other free without creating drama or needing more reasons than you already have.

[PotatoHead]

Thanks everyone

[glows]

2 hours ago, PotatoHead said:

The visualization is something I've done with others in the past as well.  I've read up on this and it seems to be pretty normal, it doesn't cause me any distress during the act but I could see it having negative effects afterwards since I do have the real life fears and worries now and it is not just fantasy.

I agree with you @glows if it really did just stop at the texting, it's something that should be able to be gotten over.  The problem is that trust was broken, I don't know if I can believe anything she's told me and I've caught her in so many lies now.  So I won't ever know for sure if it stopped at texting, if she didn't really initiate or want something from this other guy all while I thought we were happy and she was madly in love with me.  If she is capable of that kind of deception then it's likely to happen again and is probably a deal breaker for me.

I don't believe that I search for unhappiness or sabotage my relationships, although it is something I have thought about quite a bit.  Why can't I just move on and be happy and focus on building this relationship.  I think it's because I have gone through similar trauma in all of my past relationships.  I have learned over and over again that I can't trust anyone, and as soon as I do and I get comfortable and happy, that is when they will hurt me the most.

This is definitely something to work out in therapy or counselling. That's why I asked you whether you're attracted to her intellectually or physically. I'd find it hard to be attracted to anyone I can't trust or even be in their company for prolonged periods.

[PotatoHead]

4 minutes ago, glows said:

This is definitely something to work out in therapy or counselling. That's why I asked you whether you're attracted to her intellectually or physically. I'd find it hard to be attracted to anyone I can't trust or even be in their company for prolonged periods.

It's true, my instinct is to protect myself and therefore I keep my guard up, reminding myself of ways she has hurt me which is why I am struggling to commit and may seem to have one foot out the door.  However when we are together, in the moment it is much easier for me to focus on the good things and enjoy our time together, and yes I still find her attractive.  It's when we are apart and I am no longer feeling enamored by her presence, that I turn back to bad thoughts and negative feelings toward her more and more often.

She is very good at making me feel loved and cared for when we are together, it makes me forget about everything else.  When we are apart we keep up nearly constant communication as well, she will get upset if we go for very long without talking (I mean like more than an hour unless one of us is sleeping).  But I question now if what I feel from her is truly love, or if it is her trying to make sure I am blind to everything else and will stay with her, because she likes the way I make her feel and knows how much I have to offer.

[glows]

21 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

It's true, my instinct is to protect myself and therefore I keep my guard up, reminding myself of ways she has hurt me which is why I am struggling to commit and may seem to have one foot out the door.  However when we are together, in the moment it is much easier for me to focus on the good things and enjoy our time together, and yes I still find her attractive.  It's when we are apart and I am no longer feeling enamored by her presence, that I turn back to bad thoughts and negative feelings toward her more and more often.

She is very good at making me feel loved and cared for when we are together, it makes me forget about everything else.  When we are apart we keep up nearly constant communication as well, she will get upset if we go for very long without talking (I mean like more than an hour unless one of us is sleeping).  But I question now if what I feel from her is truly love, or if it is her trying to make sure I am blind to everything else and will stay with her, because she likes the way I make her feel and knows how much I have to offer.

You are afraid she has ulterior motives? This is damaging to the relationship. From what you mentioned earlier you mentioned she may not know anything about the way you feel. Why would you keep yourself so guarded from someone in thought, intent and emotion and suspicious at the same time, yet want to be around them. This doesn't make sense to me. 

It seems almost like she keeps you company but you're not really in love with her at all.

[PotatoHead]

1 hour ago, glows said:

You are afraid she has ulterior motives? This is damaging to the relationship. From what you mentioned earlier you mentioned she may not know anything about the way you feel. Why would you keep yourself so guarded from someone in thought, intent and emotion and suspicious at the same time, yet want to be around them. This doesn't make sense to me. 

It seems almost like she keeps you company but you're not really in love with her at all.

I don't want to believe she does but I can't help but question how she feels if she is capable of thinking about someone else the way she did and of lying to me.  I know people can make mistakes but I can't imagine going behind the back of someone I truly love, as she claims she does me.  I want to believe her but I fear getting hurt again.

[glows]

9 minutes ago, PotatoHead said:

I don't want to believe she does but I can't help but question how she feels if she is capable of thinking about someone else the way she did and of lying to me.  I know people can make mistakes but I can't imagine going behind the back of someone I truly love, as she claims she does me.  I want to believe her but I fear getting hurt again.

Then it goes back to all the reading of texts and getting too deep in the details and info from the beginning and not being able to let go of the past or earlier part of your relationship. Your situation is similar to one with infidelity in a marriage and reconciling after a betrayal. Two partners have to decide to move forwards in tandem to work on the relationship going forward. It doesn't work when one person can't move forward. All that war and anguish within yourself is because you're not ready or open to keep going or growing in the relationship.

I think she deserves to know, regardless of what she's done. She may make the decision for you anyway and decide that she doesn't want to be with a man who has misgivings about the past if she's fully interested in being with you now. The sad part is that in you harbouring this resentment or having reservations about her, not engaging or facing that marriage talk (she wants to get married and you don't seem to want that for example) you may just as well push her to talk with another man or cheat or leave you anyway. You both are locked at a standstill it seems and just unable to grow in the relationship together. 

[dramafreezone]

5 hours ago, glows said:

This is definitely something to work out in therapy or counselling. That's why I asked you whether you're attracted to her intellectually or physically. I'd find it hard to be attracted to anyone I can't trust or even be in their company for prolonged periods.

Eh, most guys don't work the same way.😆

Physical attraction can be completely separate from a woman's character, at least for me (and most guys that I've had the conversation with).  I'll take that further; I can be physically attracted to someone I know to have horrible character.  

I don't think guys being exclusively attracted to a woman's physical beauty is at all abnormal.   Now falling in love with them, that's where we veer into unhealthy mindset IMO.  I think sometimes we can be so attracted to the physical beauty that we project our ideals on to them when those qualities simply don't exist.

Edited April 1, 2022 by dramafreezone

[glows]

1 hour ago, dramafreezone said:

Eh, most guys don't work the same way.😆

Physical attraction can be completely separate from a woman's character, at least for me (and most guys that I've had the conversation with).  I'll take that further; I can be physically attracted to someone I know to have horrible character.  

I don't think guys being exclusively attracted to a woman's physical beauty is at all abnormal.   Now falling in love with them, that's where we veer into unhealthy mindset IMO.  I think sometimes we can be so attracted to the physical beauty that we project our ideals on to them when those qualities simply don't exist.

I agree in a general sense on the underlined point and disagree with the rest. Those are some broad and false generalizations about men vs women. You seem to think women and men are so dissimilar and in my experience it’s not accurate.

In any case, my question was directed to the OP and regarding his relationship.