How do you know for sure?

[Gingerberry]

Married for over 20 years, and my husband is a good man, despite his faults. I know he loves me, but our marriage has been on the rocks for many years and we have both been in denial about it. I have been thinking leaving my husband for quite a few years, but I keep pushing those feelings down in the hopes that I would "fake it till I make it" with him. Long story short, I met someone who made me feel all the things I had been missing out on over 20 years, and I cannot go back to the emptiness of my marriage.  I told my husband how I felt, and he was completely blindsided. I feel so terrible for hurting him this way, but I don't think I want to try and save the marriage, I just want to move on. When I was angry and holding my feelings inside, it was easier to be decisive. Now that things are more in the open, I feel confused again. I care about him, I love him and our family, but I don't love him a wife should love her husband. It sounds so cruel, but when I saw the devastation and shock on his face, and the hurt in his voice, I frustrated. I felt like I needed to help him cope, which made me feel even less like his spouse. Is it possible to love ones spouse as a human being, with compassion but not the kind of love a wife needs to have for her husband? If I don't love him like that, how do we go about living together in our house, raising our children? Is that even realistic? During our big "talk" he confided in me that he now recognizes his drinking problem as being a part of our marital issues. The weird thing is, I am so used to his functioning alcoholism that I didn't even really consider that when i made my decision to tell him I was unhappy enough to separate. So how do separate my compassion for him with my desire for a separation? How do figure out if I truly don't want to be married to him any more? I am in counselling, but my therapist felt I was just spinning my wheels every time we talked and I should make some choices before we met again. I guess now would be a good time

 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Gingerberry said:

Married for over 20 years, I am so used to his functioning alcoholism 

Talk to an attorney about your options in divorce including division of assets, retirement plans etc. Do you have kids under 18? If so, you'll need to discuss this with the attorney as well.

You can also get support from Al-Anon,:https://al-anon.org/newcomers/self-quiz/adult-quiz/

Cheat if you want, but move forward getting divorced.

Explore your own reasons for staying with an alcoholic.

Affairs are not a form of cost free therapy. It may crash and burn, then you'll have a bunch of problems, headaches and heartaches to contend with.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Wiseman2

[stillafool]

Yes it is possible to "love" someone as family but not be "in love" with them.  You can always separate before you actually divorce if that works better.  I do think that once you fall out of love with someone there's no going back.

[glows]

9 hours ago, Gingerberry said:

So how do separate my compassion for him with my desire for a separation? How do figure out if I truly don't want to be married to him any more? I am in counselling, but my therapist felt I was just spinning my wheels every time we talked and I should make some choices before we met again. I guess now would be a good time

 

You need to decide if separation and divorce is what you want. It doesn’t sound like you’ve reached a firm decision and that’s why you’re faltering and unable to place your emotions or figure out how to act. Deal with yourself first and decide what you want and then continue with the process with the appropriate legal advice. 

The issue with your emotional and/or physical affair outside the marriage is that you ignored and pretended the marital problems didn’t exist with a distraction. You’re only confused now because you thought leaving for another man makes sense. In reality if you choose divorce you’ll have to accept all the issues in your marriage that you can’t change and make peace with letting go. 

I think you’re focusing on the wrong things needing to have compassion for your spouse and living in a fantasy world of an extramarital affair. Either stop what you’re doing with the affair and work on your marriage or divorce your husband. That’s the compassionate thing to do. You know by now his alcoholism is a sickness and illness that he needs help for or it’ll never change. 

[Gingerberry]

10 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Explore your own reasons for staying with an alcoholic.

When I really think about it, he has been an alcoholic for as long as we've been together. I guess I just accepted it, even when it was bothering me. And of course, I have enabled it. 

Affairs are not a form of cost free therapy. It may crash and burn, then you'll have a bunch of problems, headaches and heartaches to contend with.

You are very right, and I realize I have been using this man as an emotional crutch. Its difficult to push him away when he makes me feel so good.

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Gingerberry

[Gingerberry]

6 hours ago, glows said:

It doesn’t sound like you’ve reached a firm decision and that’s why you’re faltering and unable to place your emotions or figure out how to act. 

So how do I get to that place where I can be firm in my choice? How do I get the clarity I need when Im constantly being pulled at by feeling bad for hurting him, feeling guilty for having an emotional affair, feeling selfish for putting my own needs ahead of my husband and my children, feeling ashamed for letting my marriage fall apart and feeling anxious that I am now in the drivers seat of my own future and Im scared to make the wrong choice? 

The issue with your emotional and/or physical affair outside the marriage is that you ignored and pretended the marital problems didn’t exist with a distraction. 

You are right, and I now see that I have been distracting myself from my marriage for many, many years in different ways. Straight up denial, fantasies of living a different life, plunging into work, taking up hobbies on my own etc. 

I think you’re focusing on the wrong things needing to have compassion for your spouse and living in a fantasy world of an extramarital affair. Either stop what you’re doing with the affair and work on your marriage or divorce your husband. That’s the compassionate thing to do. You know by now his alcoholism is a sickness and illness that he needs help for or it’ll never change. 

This is so clear now, and I feel like im trying to hold on to the fantasy world so that i don't drown in reality. If I let go of that fantasy, what happens? I think the high that I got from those intoxicating feelings is now starting to wear off and facing reality is quite depressing, actually. As it should be, I guess.

 

[glows]

1 hour ago, Gingerberry said:

It doesn’t sound like you’ve reached a firm decision and that’s why you’re faltering and unable to place your emotions or figure out how to act. 

So how do I get to that place where I can be firm in my choice? How do I get the clarity I need when Im constantly being pulled at by feeling bad for hurting him, feeling guilty for having an emotional affair, feeling selfish for putting my own needs ahead of my husband and my children, feeling ashamed for letting my marriage fall apart and feeling anxious that I am now in the drivers seat of my own future and Im scared to make the wrong choice? 

The issue with your emotional and/or physical affair outside the marriage is that you ignored and pretended the marital problems didn’t exist with a distraction. 

You are right, and I now see that I have been distracting myself from my marriage for many, many years in different ways. Straight up denial, fantasies of living a different life, plunging into work, taking up hobbies on my own etc. 

I think you’re focusing on the wrong things needing to have compassion for your spouse and living in a fantasy world of an extramarital affair. Either stop what you’re doing with the affair and work on your marriage or divorce your husband. That’s the compassionate thing to do. You know by now his alcoholism is a sickness and illness that he needs help for or it’ll never change. 

This is so clear now, and I feel like im trying to hold on to the fantasy world so that i don't drown in reality. If I let go of that fantasy, what happens? I think the high that I got from those intoxicating feelings is now starting to wear off and facing reality is quite depressing, actually. As it should be, I guess.

If you let go of the fantasy then you’ll be dealing with the reality of your marriage which has been falling apart for a long time.

You mentioned guilt yet it’s also not your fault that your husband is an alcoholic. His relationship is with alcohol, not with you. You need to do more reading and research about why you’re with an alcoholic, the same way I had to reflect on why I was with someone with a previous and then recurring drug problem. Whatever root causes of the demise or result of your marriage today likely spans years and decades and probably predates you as his wife or even knowing you. This isn’t just about you and how you feel now so don’t collapse on yourself thinking you ruined someone’s life. It’s been a long time coming. 

I strongly suggest looking into those resources provided above and seeking counselling for yourself. You seem prone to fantasy and getting carried away in the emotion but know that smart choices or what you choose going forward have a direct effect on how you will feel later. Start by making choices for yourself so that you can reach a point where you feel comfortable and happy with yourself. 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Gingerberry said:

When I really think about it, he has been an alcoholic for as long as we've been together. I guess I just accepted it, even when it was bothering me. And of course, I have enabled it. 

Go to Al-Anon. Either online or to support meetings. Consider a therapist to talk to. This man you're talking to is a mirage.

It accomplishes a lot more in understanding your role in this and it won't be a crutch, it will be valid support for the real issue.

[mark clemson]

Loving someone "as family" is, from what I understand, actually quite normal in very LTRs. Often it is enough for people, sometimes it is not.

I suspect that the attitudes/views of both partners, the level and quality of emotional connection between them, the quality/characteristics of the shared life they built together, the amount and impact of "practical concerns" involved (such as age of children and finances), and the likelihood/availability of potential new partners all play a role.

In your case you felt "emptiness" which to me suggests that eventually you reached a point where there wasn't a strong emotional bond with your husband. Every couple has a slightly different "chemistry" and sometimes those bonds can be repaired (with "work"). However, in your case it seems you feel it wouldn't work/be reparable. I suppose that is typically the case when someone announces their intent to divorce.

[Gingerberry]

I went to an Al-Anon Family meeting this evening to try and get some perspective on how and why I remained silent about his alcoholism. I also really just need to connect with other people who are going through very difficult times because I just feel very alone in all this. I truly want my husband to get help with his addiction, but it has little to do with how I feel about our marriage now. Definitely his alcoholism played a role in the deterioration process, as did my reaction to it. I cannot use it as a lever to justify my own feelings of guilt and sorrow and create a victim narrative for myself. Im a bit concerned that is what im doing to some extent. One way or another though, I now understand that it is ok to feel selfish right now. It's ok to take care of my own needs, and feel validated in that. So that is what Im going to do. I need to release myself from this marriage to a man I obviously no longer respect, admire or feel love for other than in a familial way. Im ready to take that scary step and face whatever lies ahead, on my own. I will need support throughout this, and I know it will be incredibly difficult. Being less than 100% committed to moving on will only make things harder for both of us in the long run. Im sad for his pain, but I cannot remain as his wife out of guilt or empathy. 

[glows]

You seem very self-aware even through pain/conflict. I’m glad the meeting helped in some way. 

And yes it absolutely is ok to take care of your own needs. That’s an ongoing process if you’ve found that slipping in past years.

[Wiseman2]

6 hours ago, Gingerberry said:

  I cannot remain as his wife out of guilt or empathy. 

Excellent you are going to a support group. Make sure you are not staying out of fear of change or the unknown.

See your physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Make sure you are ok. Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support. 

You're going to want someone to help you navigate a divorce from the emotional angle. You'll also need a good attorney to advise you about severing assets and dissolving the marriage.

[Gingerberry]

Now that I feel I've made peace with my decision, the hard part is living with my husband while he works through his own emotions and towards acceptance. We somehow just avoid each other and avoid having conversations - which basically sums up our last 25 years together. I think he is hoping with time I will soften and be open to discussion, but I need to stay committed to my decision. During our last conversation I did not explicitly say I am leaving him, so I guess that needs to happen now too. Every time I look at him I see the hurt and confusion and I feel awful all over again. Ideally, I would like to have a bit more separateness to our living accommodations. Is it too soon to suggest this, or do I give him a bit more time to come to terms with what's happening? At what point do we tell the kids what's going on? They will have questions that i just don't have answers for...

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, Gingerberry said:

Ideally, I would like to have a bit more separateness to our living accommodations. Is it too soon to suggest this, or do I give him a bit more time to come to terms with what's happening? 

Your first stop is to talk to an attorney. You can not ask him y to leave the marital home and it's unwise for you to.

Avoid DIY divorce. Get appropriate advice and have your ducks lined up before you have a talk with him.

His primary relationship is with alcohol. Everyone else in an alcoholics life is a pawn to facilitate their drinking.

You also need to consult a therapist to help you navigate the emotional side such as informing kids, etc. It depend first and foremost on what your attorney and therapist advise.

[Gingerberry]

I talked with my husband again, and he told me he understands how I feel and is on board with us separating. I was pretty surprised, as I truly thought he wanted to try some counselling and give it some time to try. He said he knows I am miserable, and he is too. We have kept our conversations very direct and focused, not even bothering to discuss how/why we got to the point we did. Although that seems odd and perhaps a red flag for something, I'm so relieved. We are actually communicating better now than we ever have before, which confirms my decision to split up. If we can parent and manage to live together (for financial reasons) peacefully and respectfully, I think we will both be much happier apart. Its so strange that finances and day to day life has been a big part of my unhappiness, and only now is he committed to addressing them. I guess he just needed the right motivation lol.  Changing some of those behaviours doesn't change my desire to move on, but it's such a relief to feel like I can finally start getting some of my needs met without the pesky relationship getting in the way. I don't regret my life with my STBX, and in fact this separation has made me really look at my own relationship behaviour and start to evaluate what I need to do in order to have happier relationships moving forward. I will be in therapy for that too haha.

So here's where things get a little confusing for me. Ideally, I would like to avoid lawyers and just split our assets 50/50 when the time comes. We really don't have much, just a small house. We don't have any joint accounts either. Folks on this board have advised me to not do this, and get a lawyer. If we are amicable, is this really necessary? Can we draft our own separation agreement (with some legal advice) and just file for divorce? Has anyone on here done this successfully or unsuccessfully and can share what I need to look out for?

Lastly, I did attend an Al-Anon meeting, mainly to reach out for support during a very emotional event but also to start thinking about how my husbands disease may have affected me and my children on a deeper level that I haven't really processed. I know it sounds awful, but I also feel like I'm washing my hands of his alcoholism by separating. No longer do I need to tidy up his empty bottles, hide his problem from my family or make excuses for him. I don't need to blame myself for setting him off because I didn't realize he was drunk and failed to disengage before the argument started. I don't have to be disappointed and ashamed at how much beer he takes on a family camping trip. I don't have to be embarrassed when he starts slurring his speech and rambling after having too much wine during dinner. I don't have to ask him to please don't drink so much, because you act weird and the kids will notice. I now no longer take responsibility for his disease - he is on his own with it. Even just writing this out makes me realize I need to keep going to AA because I still have a lot to unpack. So thank you to all the people who responded to me with that advice. 

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, Gingerberry said:

 If we can parent and manage to live together for financial reasons peacefully and respectfully, I think we will both be much happier apart.

Ideally, I would like to avoid lawyers and just split our assets 50/50 when the time comes.

See what options there are. Mediators whatever. So you are neither divorcing or even separating? It sounds like you have decided to be roommates?

If you are not interested in divorce or separation that's fine. But if you are legally married courts will have to dissolve the marital contract, whether you choose a mediator, or do it pro se.

I would find this particular situation very limiting because neither of you will be free or able to date or live independently free of each others presence or problems or the alcohol issues..

[glows]

6 minutes ago, Gingerberry said:

I talked with my husband again, and he told me he understands how I feel and is on board with us separating. I was pretty surprised, as I truly thought he wanted to try some counselling and give it some time to try. He said he knows I am miserable, and he is too. We have kept our conversations very direct and focused, not even bothering to discuss how/why we got to the point we did. Although that seems odd and perhaps a red flag for something, I'm so relieved. We are actually communicating better now than we ever have before, which confirms my decision to split up. If we can parent and manage to live together (for financial reasons) peacefully and respectfully, I think we will both be much happier apart. Its so strange that finances and day to day life has been a big part of my unhappiness, and only now is he committed to addressing them. I guess he just needed the right motivation lol.  Changing some of those behaviours doesn't change my desire to move on, but it's such a relief to feel like I can finally start getting some of my needs met without the pesky relationship getting in the way. I don't regret my life with my STBX, and in fact this separation has made me really look at my own relationship behaviour and start to evaluate what I need to do in order to have happier relationships moving forward. I will be in therapy for that too haha.

So here's where things get a little confusing for me. Ideally, I would like to avoid lawyers and just split our assets 50/50 when the time comes. We really don't have much, just a small house. We don't have any joint accounts either. Folks on this board have advised me to not do this, and get a lawyer. If we are amicable, is this really necessary? Can we draft our own separation agreement (with some legal advice) and just file for divorce? Has anyone on here done this successfully or unsuccessfully and can share what I need to look out for?

Lastly, I did attend an Al-Anon meeting, mainly to reach out for support during a very emotional event but also to start thinking about how my husbands disease may have affected me and my children on a deeper level that I haven't really processed. I know it sounds awful, but I also feel like I'm washing my hands of his alcoholism by separating. No longer do I need to tidy up his empty bottles, hide his problem from my family or make excuses for him. I don't need to blame myself for setting him off because I didn't realize he was drunk and failed to disengage before the argument started. I don't have to be disappointed and ashamed at how much beer he takes on a family camping trip. I don't have to be embarrassed when he starts slurring his speech and rambling after having too much wine during dinner. I don't have to ask him to please don't drink so much, because you act weird and the kids will notice. I now no longer take responsibility for his disease - he is on his own with it. Even just writing this out makes me realize I need to keep going to AA because I still have a lot to unpack. So thank you to all the people who responded to me with that advice. 

Regarding the separation agreement, that’s a possibility. Check the requirements for divorce and filing in your jurisdiction and if you need legal advice or have specific concerns about your situation on splitting 50/50 do see a lawyer. Depending exclusively on relationship forums for legal advice or opinion is risky. You may be trying to save money but it’s not worth it. 

[Gingerberry]

1 minute ago, Wiseman2 said:

See what options there are. Mediators whatever. So you are neither divorcing or even separating? It sounds like you have decided to be roommates?

If you are not interested in divorce or separation that's fine. But if you are legally married courts will have to dissolve the marital contract, whether you choose a mediator, or do it pro se.

I would find this particular situation very limiting because neither of you will be free or able to date or live independently free of each others presence or problems or the alcohol issues..

We are absolutely separating, and will divorce after the required 1 year. We need to continue to share the house for financial reasons, and are working that out so we can both have our own dwelling areas. We have a basement apartment, so it shouldn't be difficult, just figure out who lives upstairs and who lives downstairs. For practical reasons I will likely be upstairs as I am the one who takes care of the kids. And I am very aware that I need to be free of his presence, other than agreed upon times. So maybe we draft something out ourselves and its a working document that gets adjusted as needed. I guess it all sounds doable until there's an issue that doesn't just resolve itself. Is there such thing as divorce counselling? Like not a lawyer, just someone who can guide me through things?

 

[Wiseman2]

2 minutes ago, Gingerberry said:

Is there such thing as divorce counselling? Like not a lawyer, just someone who can guide me through things?

Yes. Call an attorney for a consultation. It isn't like getting a retainer and all the costs of a long contested divorce for simply getting some advice. You need to start someplace, even if you need to be "separated" (even though you are not legally or otherwise) for a year.

Try to be careful with a DIY approach because if you need legal separation for a year in your jurisdiction, what you are contemplating with this odd arrangement may not qualify. This is why you do need to consult  an attorney for some legal advice.

[glows]

On 4/3/2022 at 6:02 AM, Gingerberry said:

Is there such thing as divorce counselling? Like not a lawyer, just someone who can guide me through things?

 

If you're speaking about emotional and mental health, yes. There are therapists that specialize in separation and divorce. You may also find it useful in learning how to coparent together. Even if you think you both can handle it on your own it helps to have a sounding board and guidance along the way.

You may be able to consult with a paralegal for less cost if you need basic info or guidance about separation depending on your jurisdiction. They cannot give legal advice or practice law but they may be able to assist with the documentation. 

[stillafool]

On 4/3/2022 at 9:02 AM, Gingerberry said:

We are absolutely separating, and will divorce after the required 1 year.

 

On 4/3/2022 at 9:02 AM, Gingerberry said:

We need to continue to share the house for financial reasons

Living under the same roof is not separating.  You need to be independent and away from each other in order for separation to work because under the same roof is too easy to fall back into co-dependence again.

[Gingerberry]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:41 PM, stillafool said:

 

Living under the same roof is not separating.  You need to be independent and away from each other in order for separation to work because under the same roof is too easy to fall back into co-dependence again.

In the area where I live, it is completely legal to be separated while remaining in the same home. However, I do agree that living under the same roof is less than ideal in terms of being independent and moving on. 

 

[Gingerberry]

Update: My STBX found out I am seeing another man. It's very soon, I get that. I waited until after we agreed to separate to get fully involved with the new guy, but obviously that was little comfort for him. He is devastated, of course, and I feel pretty awful. I did not want him to find out this way. I had planned on telling him in a few weeks, but here we are. This is so hard, trying to keep all this drama away from the kids and I feel like in the end it won't work. They will know things are very strained between us, and I don't know if Im doing them any favours by pretending everything is ok. So many emotions, it's a crazy roller coaster. I still feel completely at peace with my decision to split up, but I guess I thought the damage would be a bit less. So when he confronted me, we talked and I told him he didn't make it seem like he wanted to try and rescue anything. That did not go over well. As another shining example of our inability to communicate, he felt that I was stonewalling and didn't want to even consider reconciliation, so he just gave me what I wanted. Fair enough, he wasn't wrong. But I guess I felt less guilty about moving on so quickly when I thought he was just as miserable as me (his exact words). He then [rudely insulted me] and then wonders why I fell into the arms of another man so easily. He did absolutely nothing to try and salvage our marriage, long before I told him I was done. He suggested counselling years ago, but did nothing about it. So when he suggested it again, I told him I was willing to try if that's what he wanted to do. Then two days later he tells me he's ok with separating. So there's a lot of talk but never any action on his part - he consistently complained about our problems but took no responsibility to do anything different. The breakup was the last straw for me - he acknowledged his part in the problems, but then did nothing. No counselling appointment booked, no AA meeting attended. Maybe he realized it was probably futile and just gave up. So I'm probably being unfair. I know he is very hurt, and I should probably feel sorry and guilty but I honestly just feel angry again. And once again, to avoid an ugly argument, I just kept my mouth shut. He says he will forgive me in time - that's fair because I unintentionally hurt him. But what about all the years that I put up with his drinking and the behaviour that went along with it? I don't get to call him on that, and he will never admit any wrongdoing. I finally stood up to his drinking the other night though, and it felt really good. Like taking back control of my life from his addiction. Thanks for letting me rant here.

Edited April 22, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[Wiseman2]

Research Al-Anon. It's a support group for people involved with alcoholics.

 

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Gingerberry said:

 I honestly just feel angry again. And once again, to avoid an ugly argument,.

Sadly you're still trying to fix him. The alcoholism and chronic chaos will harm your kids. Staying in the same house married and dating simply adds to the chaos. Hopefully you can find a legally and  emotionally appropriate solution.