Help - long running doubts in marriage

[Will am I]

Long story short, man, 40s, been married for more than 15 years in first marriage. Two children. Doubting what to do.

No history of infidelity, neither on my side nor on my wife’s side. I believe she is dedicated and faithful. As have I been.

Marriage is stable, but over the years I’ve often felt lonely in the marriage. On some occasions the feelings went a bit over my head and I’ve recorded them in notes. These notes have gradually formed a multi year track record of me feeling depressed and wanting to escape the marriage. I often feel I’m being “arms lengthed” by my wife. Tolerated but never really wanted on the most intimate connections. I think the arms lengthing may trace back to childhood trauma, but it is here and I don’t ezpext it to change and it hurts me a lot.

I try not to think about the “stay or go question” because it hurts me. But when I do, I really lean to the “go” choice, despite the major consequences (split home, find place to live, large alimony payments and maybe trouble around seeing the kids — I don’t know how venomous my wife would respond but the first signs on the rare occasion that I’ve raised the D-word were not promising).

Here comes the catalyst (and my apologies for being such a jerk). I have met another woman online. Conversation with her was friendly and benign. Through her writing I discovered some old wounds in her that she did not yet see clearly herself (experience and age helped me here). Helped her to see the source and the patterns of these wounds more clearly and also the path to recovery.

Never once thought that she would even look at me in “that way”, since she’s in her early 20s. The age gap is 20 years, I never assumed that a woman in that age would look at a man my age in the romantic way. Maybe that safe feeling was why I was able to write freely and openly, without hesitation and without ulterior motive. But she did look at me “that way” and there was some flirting going on. Actually she came on to me in a manner so direct that it shocked me. But it did more than shock me, I made the mistake of liking the attention. She blew me away. I liked it. A lot. More compliments, more flirting, some fantasies were shared, even a few NSFW selfies. Guilty. Both.

About the younger woman I can be quite clear: the age gap, some psychological issues that I see in her and a pretty large geographic distance make it pointless to pursue a real relationship with her. Regardless of my choice to stay with my wife or leave, I know that there is no future down this path.

So at least I won’t be that guy who left his wife for a much younger woman. I would hate to be “that guy”. The real choice I am facing is not wife vs. younger woman, it is wife vs. becoming a divorced single. The younger woman has only been a catalyst to expose my doubts that were already there. But my world has been rocked and I don’t thing it can be un-rocked.

Where I am now: I feel hurt, confused, and in the dark.

Advice from both men and women very much welcome. I can take criticism so don’t hold back.

 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

45 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Long story short, man, 40s, been married for more than 15 years in first marriage. Two children.

Sorry this is happening. Do you both work? Are you in a rut?

Have you fallen into your respective mom/dad and household drudgery routine? That seems what is happening as far as being checked out from each other.

When was the last kid-free night or weekend getaway? How is the intimacy? Have either of you let yourselves go? Do you have hobbies/sports you engage in?

See a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Rule out physical problems that a start around 40. Discuss your lassitude and despair.

Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support. First discuss privately and confidentially, the issues as you perceive them, then ask about marriage therapy.

[glows]

Do you have any questions? You’ll need to figure out what you want out of your life to know what you need to do.

 

[Will am I]

Thank you for reading and answering my post.

 

Let me start by responding to the second reply. What are my goals? When I read this question, I realized what a good question it is.

What are my goals for my marriage? Do I even have these goals? Not that I am aware of (which makes it such a good question).
I guess at some point in life it was a life goal to get married and have children. Two thoughts about that. 

1. At that age (20 something) most of my goals still seemed to echo the life decisions that my parents made. Like many boys I grew up assuming that it would one day be me in the role of a husband and father, and I lived it out. Was it "my" goal? I don't know. Maybe it is, I would miss it if it weren't here. 
2. If getting married and having children were life goals, they are now checkboxes with a check mark in them. I need to give this some thought and redefine my goals for the second half of my life.

Then the longer reply. To me the advice reads: check-up first physiological, then psychological and then on the relationship level.

Which makes sense. Except for one impairment. I don't think my wife is very open to seeking help. She will be open to me seeking help (she will support me in taking action for myself if it makes me happy). But I foresee that getting *her* to talk to a therapist is not going to be easy. After all, she's fine. She seems happy (or at least content) and she is not the one who is hurting. Writing this I realize that she has checked out of my emotional well being, that area is not in the "shared zone" but in my own zone.

Then you ask if we are in a rut. Yes. My wife is a stay at home mom and an active volunteer worker during school hours. I am working full time self employed. Different worlds, each of us is comfortable in our own. We do have a good social life together, with several shared friends (usually couples).

Making time one on one has been very challenging. Our youngest child (5) is on the spectrum and it has severely impacted our family. Lots of screaming, lots of tantrums, and a deep rooted fear of being left alone. We can barely get the child to sleep in its own room. He does like the babysitter a lot. So when we have the babysitter we get to spend a couple of hours out. I love these evenings out, but at the same time I have a much deeper desire for just spending time together with my wife and not out in public. Also: more frequent and much longer stretches of time. I don't think we can repair the long period of disconnected living over dinner on some Saturday evenings. 

That brings me to a difference in our pace. Especially pre covid, I used to work from customer locations a lot and have a very full agenda. My schedule would be packed with house chores, commuting, working and meetings, and another commute between the alarm in the morning and coming home just in time for dinner.
My wife used to spend a lot of time at the house and around the kids, and also have a much emptier schedule. (to this I am understanding. getting things done when you have a toddler around is just so hard. at the end of the day, sometimes you're happy if you were able to vaccuum the living room, visit the store and cook dinner. i'm not accusing her of laziness) 
Anyways, different pace. When I got home in the evening, I wanted to be home and rest. She wanted to get out and find joy and excitement. Opposite directions. In and post covid that problem got a lot better, I spend structurally much more time working from home and my wife has been able to increase her volunteer hours outside the house now that the little one is in school. But there is still a difference in our pace. She wants to go out and have fun, I want to be together and talk.

[glows]

Are you able to speak freely with your wife? I’m sensing hesitation. You say she has checked out of your emotional well being but if you give up and cease communicating you have also checked out of caring. What you perceive in her is in your actions and behaviour too. The emotional affair and cheating will also lend to checking out.

Yes, we also all move through chapters of our lives that change and we adapt as times change. For you your family has been at the forefront for some time. Your youngest is still very young. If you want to work on your marriage try to communicate more with your wife. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by glows

[Will am I]

19 hours ago, glows said:

Are you able to speak freely with your wife? I’m sensing hesitation. You say she has checked out of your emotional well being but if you give up and cease communicating you have also checked out of caring. What you perceive in her is in your actions and behaviour too. The emotional affair and cheating will also lend to checking out.

Yes, we also all move through chapters of our lives that change and we adapt as times change. For you your family has been at the forefront for some time. Your youngest is still very young. If you want to work on your marriage try to communicate more with your wife. 

There is a lot of hesitation indeed. It feels we have lacked so much communication over the years that when we talk I don't feel confident and often wonder "where to start?".

What you say about me checking out as well: I think you have a valid point there. Maybe my previous message put too much blame on my wife. I think the most realistic way to think of it, is as an interaction in which we both took careful steps away from eachother.

And indeed, my emotional affair with the younger woman does not help. It is both the product of being checked out (feeling the need to carve out more private space away from the marriage) and also the source of more checking out. Even without doing anything with the affair actively, knowing in my heart that there is at least one other person out there who would open up and give themselves to me, not good for my commitment to my wife.

Which brings me to your final sentence. Do I want to work on the marriage? I think I do. 

Going forward feeling like I have been feeling over the last couple of years, the idea crushes me. Going forward into divorce, not an attractive outlook either. So the best option would be to work on the marriage.

Actually yesterday evening we were able to have a long and intimate talk for the first time in ages. I did express how lonely I have been feeling (although I don't think it will change anything, my wife seemed in the dark about what she could do to help). I also asked very bluntly how often the idea of divorce popped up in het mind. She said never. I confessed that it's actually a frequent thought in my head. Not because I want a divorce, but because it's one direction in which my thoughts wander when I'm feeling hurt and lonely. 

I am grateful that we were able to have this conversation and have it in an open, loving and non judgemental atmosphere. One little red flag was raised however. Some of the things my wife said gave me the impression that she attributes my feelings to my being (rather than to our marriage) and that I should be the one to fix my own feelings. 

So it's a bit of a mixed feeling I have. It's built my confidence that we can still approach the difficult subjects together, but at the same time I still need desperately to get my message across that I can't fix my lonely feelings without her help. Or actually I can, but it involves other women and that's not where I want to head.

 

[Wiseman2]

21 hours ago, Will am I said:

She wants to go out and have fun, I want to be together and talk.

That's the issue. No compromise. She would like a husband and partner and some romance. You may just want to veg out after work. The solution is not a cyberfantasy behind her back.

Enlist the help of social workers and respite care as far as dealing with your child.

[Will am I]

Thanks for replying.

I understand that intimate e-mails with someone outside of the marriage are in no way the solution. Neither is it the root of the problems, it's something that developed because I was feeling lonely and opening up to the possibility. A problematic branch on the tree, but not a root. It is clear to me that I should stop this emotional affair and redirect my feelings back towards my spouse.

For our child, it got the diagnosis and we are getting help. But realistically a lot will still come onto our shoulders. It may improve with time, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the problems to go quickly. Our child will demand more than average attention and care and will affect the emotional climate around the house. This (sometimes explosive) climate is one of the reasons why I have shied away.

You analyze the core of the issue as follows: "She would like a husband and partner and some romance. You may just want to veg out after work"

I think you're close but I see the situation slightly different. She would like a husband and a partner [partner in parenting; to take weight of the children off her shoulders] and some joy and relief. I don't think romance is very high on her list, after being burdained around the house for hours and dealing with the 5 y/o. If she had been looking for romance, I would be all in to that and I wouldn't have felt so lonely.

But the differences in emotional needs and expectations and the different frequencies of our lives, I agree to that part.

Question: how can we meet in the middle? Should we try to organize our lives differently to close the gap? Or are there other ways that I don;t currently see. All ideas welcome.

[Wiseman2]

46 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Should we try to organize our lives differently to close the gap? Or are there other ways that I don;t currently see. All ideas welcome.

Go to therapy privately and confidentially. Don't try to drag her along.

Instead find some processional guidance to unpack and sort all this out.

Especially using a cyberfantasy as a way to tune out your wife and family problems.

[Will am I]

I think I might see a therapist. I believe my wife would support me in that.

When you say "don't drag her along", it raises a bit of reluctance. I might be able to fix the factors that put me at risk of indidelity, but these factors are not the whole story. I believe that there may be some issues in my wife and definitely there are factors in our relationship dynamics.

The outlook of fixing myself, but ending up stuck in a marriage with poor dynamics for the rest of my life...it does not appeal to me. So I would demand at some point that there be more changes than just "fixing me". Otherwise I would prefer to get out of the marriage after all, all fixed up for a new life partner somewhere in the future.

 

By the way, thanks for taking time to respond to me again. It means the world to me to be able to share and to receive some proper feedback. I am in a confusing place and I need to get my head straight, feedback is really important to me now.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Will am I
Thank you note

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I think I might see a therapist. When you say "don't drag her along", it raises a bit of reluctance.

Work on yourself. Privately and confidentially to unpack your feelings. To address your unhappy marriage and home life.

Don't put this on your wife, try to figure yourself out first. "Don't drag her along" means work on yourself.

If and only if she is amenable to family therapy, then consider that.

If you see no solution, then perhaps  a therapist can steer you in the right direction one you unpack and sort some stuff out.

[Will am I]

I'm OK with the idea to work on myself with a therapist first.

I'm not OK with the idea to work on myself with a therapist only.

For the time being, I can take your advice and take the blame on myself and not put any on my wife. But there is a limit to that. Let's fast forward the clock to the point that I have made good progress in making myself less prone to infidelity. Does that solve the current situation with the emotional infidelity? Yes. Does it solve the dynamics of how we got into the situation in the first place? Only partially.

How partially that is, I admit that I cannot see that clearly right now. But I sense strongly that there will at some point also be steps for my wife to take. If that will never happen, I'm afraid I'd be fixing myself up for my next marriage and not for my current.

 

[AngryGromit]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:53 PM, Will am I said:

Here comes the catalyst (and my apologies for being such a jerk). I have met another woman online. Conversation with her was friendly and benign. Through her writing I discovered some old wounds in her that she did not yet see clearly herself (experience and age helped me here). Helped her to see the source and the patterns of these wounds more clearly and also the path to recovery.

....

About the younger woman I can be quite clear: the age gap, some psychological issues that I see in her and a pretty large geographic distance make it pointless to pursue a real relationship with her. Regardless of my choice to stay with my wife or leave, I know that there is no future down this path.

How exact did you "just happen to meet a woman online", obvious your were looking for someone on dating sites. But your right about the age gap, relationship with big age gaps rarely work out in the long term. When she's in her 30's, she will mostly likely pushing to have children, where your in your 50's, you happy to get the kids out of the house. Your retiring in your 60's, and she still working full time in her 40's.  You will be in different points in your lives. someone in there early 20's is great for a fling, but chances are her attention will wonder once the novelty of the older guy wears off. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by AngryGromit

[glows]

Thanks for the responses. I don't think it's fair to include your wife in this, plainly speaking. You've felt disjointed in your marriage but are also largely removed from it because you work outside of the home or are away from your family. In response to feeling a lack of romance in your marriage, you tried your hand at an emotional affair sending pictures and participating in language or flirtation with another woman. The other woman might remind you of your youth or a life without a problematic child. It's an escape from the stress and being a provider also. Your answer and solution thus far was to privately remove yourself from the marriage by using another woman or affair partner. Why should your wife help you in reconnecting back to the marriage when you actively found a solution without her? I'm not a therapist, only putting thoughts out there and food for thought. 

Should you truly put to action that desire to remain in your marriage, it can't come as a last resort as if only to avoid divorce or loneliness. Resigning yourself to the marriage is settling, not choosing it so there's a problem there in the way you're perceiving your marriage. Currently it's not a choice to you. It's an option because other options are scary or unappealing.

Each moment we resolved an argument when I was previously married, I actively chose to remain in the marriage until I didn't anymore. When I stopped believing in it, we got divorced after separating for one year at my request. I didn't want the marriage any longer. I'm not sure if this helps in any way. I'm only sharing this because I think marriage has to be a choice, an active choice, between two people and not a last resort.

 

[Will am I]

9 minutes ago, AngryGromit said:

How exact did you "just happen to meet a woman online", obvious your were looking for someone on dating sites. But your right about the age gap, relationship with big age gaps rarely work out in the long term. When she's in her 30's, she will mostly likely pushing to have children, where your in your 50's, you happy to get the kids out of the house. Your retiring in your 60's, and she still working full time in her 40's.  You will be in different points in your lives. someone in there early 20's is great for a fling, but chances are her attention will wonder once the novelty of the older guy wears off. 

No dating site. A website about a shared hobby, with a forum section. And with support for private messages in the forums. Actually she was the one who very early on sent me a direct message (maybe like 2 days after I registered on the forum). It was pretty benign. "Hey how are you", "welcome to the commmunity", "nice to meet you", that kind of stuff. That was the opening of the one on one conversation. From there it evolved. Responding to each others topics on the public forums, direct messages for the off-topic talk. And behind the direct messages on the forum came the exchange of e-mail addresses. By that time we had started to fall in love and wanted to exchange photos and on the forum we missed the possibility to attach pictures.

What I want to set straight with this: I did not actively set out to look for a girlfriend from day 1.

I don't think I would have registered on Tinder or on a dating site. Too focused and too explicit, it would have made me back out. Later I realized that I had actively set out for meeting new friends, and that I had a welcoming attitude towards the chance of "accidentally" meeting someone special. So ultimately it was the same thing, where I desired to meet someone, but the steps were smaller. Let's say I managed to fool myself. But it was not as explicit and intentional as registering on a dating site.

 

About evolving communications: there's this thing with the question "how are you": it has a polite answer, a real answer and a spectrum inbetween. At first it's "i'm fine, thanks". Later on it was more like "I'm glad to be write to you. It's been a lonely couple of days." I guess some relationships are just there from the first second (where two people meet and fall in love at first sight). Most relationships evolve through increasing intimacy in the conversation. For me this was the second type.

 

About the age gap. You are totally right. Amidst all my confusion this is the one thing I see clearly. This adorable young lady will not become my second wife, not even if I opt for a divorce from my current wife. First because of the reasons you state, you're constantly stretching yourself to fit in the same life phase and it will never be a comfortable fit. But also because I believe her attraction to older men springs from an emotional wound. The proper solution is that she finds healing for that and then meets someone her own age and gets married and lives happily ever after. And last but not least it would make my daughter too uncomfortable. They're slightly less than 10 years apart. If I had registered on a dating site, I would never have targeted women her age. Sometimes when you allow things to happen, one step at the time, you can end up in different situations than if you behave intentionally.

 

Looking forward I think there are two options for me.

Option 1 is where I break up with my affair, then fix myself (the part where I am way to prone to fall for other women), then I and my wife fix our marriage, and I recommit to that for the rest of my life. It is a long and complex road, but it is my favorite outcome.

Option 2 is what happens when I decide that option 1 won't work. It's where I divorce my wife, try to find healing, establish a new life as a divorced single man and then maybe open up to a new life partner. Or not, depending on the experiences between now and the moment that I leave he "option 1" track.

Slowly it's becoming more and more clear what I need to do and in which order. Writing and reading your responsed has been helpful.

 

[Will am I]

28 minutes ago, glows said:

Thanks for the responses. I don't think it's fair to include your wife in this, plainly speaking. You've felt disjointed in your marriage but are also largely removed from it because you work outside of the home or are away from your family. In response to feeling a lack of romance in your marriage, you tried your hand at an emotional affair sending pictures and participating in language or flirtation with another woman. The other woman might remind you of your youth or a life without a problematic child. It's an escape from the stress and being a provider also. Your answer and solution thus far was to privately remove yourself from the marriage by using another woman or affair partner. Why should your wife help you in reconnecting back to the marriage when you actively found a solution without her? I'm not a therapist, only putting thoughts out there and food for thought. 

OK, I understand your position. It's good to receive also feedback from the female perspective.

Summarizing: "I walked out, why should my wife help me walk back in". 

That makes total sense if we focus on the stuation at hand. But there is a deeper level, where I have been feeling lonely many many times over an long period, before I ever opened up to meeting other women. When it comes to me turning back from the affair, that's 100% on me. But when it comes to the older and deeper pain, I feel that my wife should be involved in the path to recovery. A part of these feelings of loneliness and isolation may spring from my soul, I have struggled with depression earlier in life. I can also take that part on my plate too. But even after we eliminate the affair and the depression parts, there is a remainder of causes which have made me so unhappy. For that part, I want my wife involved in the healing process. 

 

28 minutes ago, glows said:

Should you truly put to action that desire to remain in your marriage, it can't come as a last resort as if only to avoid divorce or loneliness. Resigning yourself to the marriage is settling, not choosing it so there's a problem there in the way you're perceiving your marriage. Currently it's not a choice to you. It's an option because other options are scary or unappealing.

Each moment we resolved an argument when I was previously married, I actively chose to remain in the marriage until I didn't anymore. When I stopped believing in it, we got divorced after separating for one year at my request. I didn't want the marriage any longer. I'm not sure if this helps in any way. I'm only sharing this because I think marriage has to be a choice, an active choice, between two people and not a last resort.

 

I hear you loud and clear.

With your help and that of others on this topic I'm organizing my thoughts and restoring clarity in my thinking (let's say the clarity really got lost when I fell in love with the other woman). Part of this clarity that I'm finding now is the decision that I will not settle in this marriage as a last resort because the alternatives suck.

Also after the long and intimate conversation with my wife last night (that was not as scary as I feared and went a little bit better than I expected), my plan is to choose the marriage. But not the marriage as it has been, but as I want it to be.

It will take a lot of effort from me and (as I see it now, at some stage also from my wife). If at one point I lose faith in the good outcome of these efforts, I think I would rather get the divorce. It hurts me to write this because I'm totally not ready for divorce. But overlooking a life long future I do not want a "last resort" kind of marriage.

[Will am I]

Thank you again to all contributors. I have given it a few nights's sleep and read the whole topic again and I feel much clearer and more structured in my head now.

My course of action will be to break up with the emotional affair, find help for my own emotional issues, analyze which parts of the problem are mine and which parts are not mine and (depending on the outcome of that) seek relationship therapy together with my wife.

That's a long and complex road. I understand it can fail at any stage. Maybe because I lose motivation, maybe because I can't get my wife on board in the later stages where her commitment is als needed, and maybe because ongoing change of perspective at one point will tell me that the marriage is over and that I'm at peace ending it iand we can separate n good spirits.

If this happens, there is my "plan B". In that plan I will file for divorce, but without having someone else in a romantic involvement or even "on standby".

It is my sincere desire to clean up where I left a mess and move forward in a respectful way. What I want later in life is to look in the rear view mirror and conclude that I have done well. Regardless of the outcome. Either that saved our marriage or that we ended up divorcing. I want to be able to look back and be satisfied with the way things went.

 

[Wiseman2]

The only person you can  help is yourself, so leaving it contingent on fixing her seems like you just want to divorce anyway.

The power struggle is quite palpable. Even this mental standoff of "why should I go to a therapist to help (not fix) me if she's the one that needs to be fixed?"

Why not cover all the bases? Consult an attorney for your options in divorce. See what it could mean.

See a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support. Therapists don't "fix" people, they help and support them through difficult times.

Since you already know a cyberfantasy is not helping with anything except a way to tune out your wife and family in an escapist fashion, sooner or later you'll have to find a way to find peace with yourself and the resentment that's built up for so long.

 

[Will am I]

I’m not leaving everything contingent on my wife seeing a therapist. I will see one for myself first, and regardless.

I do keep the divorce option open in case that she would be unwilling to get on the team, after I take the first big steps on my own.

The reason is not that I want to divorce, but that I don’t want to be in a marriage that remains broken even after I did all I could.

My favorite outcome is a good marriage. my least favorite is a bad one. I guess the divorce option is in the middle. it’s my Plan B.

Right now I’m not aiming for divorce, but I am mentally preparing for the possibility. not because I want to but because I know I should.

About speaking to a family lawyer, I don’t think now is the right time. for me that is a step in actual preparation for a divorce, and I will only take that step when my hopes for Plan A are dwindling. you may read a bit of conflict in my writings, but for me mental preparation or something you do a lot earlier than actual physical preparations.

[Will am I]

Short update.

A close friend visited yesterday. We took a long walk and had a beer in the garden and I confessed the situation and my thoughts and plans to him. 

He proposed a change in the sequence of the plans. On this topic the consensus was that I would need to fix most if not everything alone. He said “don’t do that” and pointed to the risk that walking this very lonely and difficult path alone would emotionally alienate me more from my marriage. That it might even lead to feelings of resentment towards my wife for not being there when I needed her so desperately. 

Also he said, I’d be involving my wife into a done deal, and build an unfair head start on the emotional processing of everything. He advised me that if I would keep everything private and only come clean in such a late stage, would basically be setting myself up for the divorce option.

I knew he was right, so I talked with my wife for two hours in the evening. Obviously she cried because I did drop the bomb. I emphasized how much I would like to move forward as a couple but that I had made up my mind about prefereing alone over lonely. That continuing on the old foot, feeling hurt and lonely so often, was not an option for the rest od my life.

We both cried but we kept facing each other and we comitted from both sides to giving the marriage our best shot. I am currently much more hopeful that we can turn this situation around.

[Wiseman2]

31 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Obviously she cried because I did drop the bomb. I emphasized how much I would like to move forward as a couple but that I had made up my mind about prefereing alone over lonely.

What bomb did you Drop? That you are having an affair or that you want a divorce or that she failed you and want her to change?

[spiritedaway2003]

Good for you for kicking off the conversation.  The hardest part if often how to start that conversation - it's only the beginning.

I held back from responding initially because I have conflicting advice. There's the "general" advice I could give you, and then there is the more realistic advice having been on the other end of things.  My f(MM) was also like you so what you wrote is relatable (there was also no prior history of unfaithfulness on his end). Rather than saying that it is "wrong" for you to even have feelings for anyone else, I actually think it's a more helpful exercise to examine why you do.  These things do not exist in a vacuum.  Examine what is missing in your marriage that allowed you to open your heart to others.  Those are the things that you need to work on should you want to recommit back to the marriage (and if you don't want it to happen again and again).

I don't have super solid advice here but a few thoughts

1.  You made a commitment when you married.  Rather than think of as a commitment to stay at all costs even if you are unhappy, think about whether you would miss or live without your spouse if she is no longer in your life as a life/romantic partner.

2.  Some people stay in unfulfilling/unhappy relationships much longer than they should. Are you really unhappy yourself (something only you can fix) or are you unhappy in your marriage?  It makes a big difference.  It sounded from your first post it's more the latter, hence #1.  It's often an uphill climb when one partner thinks everything is fine but the other doesn't, whether it's because the other partner is conflict avoidant or that there are communication issues.  When this isn't rectified, resentment builds but the "everything is fine" spouse is none the wiser.  Maybe start with some individual therapy first to identify the source of your unhappiness so you understand what you really need, and then work on marriage issues after.

3.  If you choose to commit to the marriage, break all contact the the OW.  She will hurt, but going NC over time will help her to forget you and move forward with her life.  Part of the trap for you and many of us who's been in this position is both a blessing and a curse (empathy because how can two people who care for other turned out to be such a bad thing?)  As much as you want to make sure she is OK, it is your responsibility to take care of you and it is her responsibility to take care of herself.  Do not pay for her therapy.  If she is in a bad place, she will learn to seek help when she must. 

4. I believe you when you say you weren't looking. I certainly wasn't, nor was my f(MM) so I don't think the starting position is intentional.  Aside from that, a side note on age. There's also an age difference in my case.  When you fall for someone, it becomes immaterial.  Cliche as it is, age is just a number.   On a practicality level, it can be different being in different life stages, but plenty of people who do have made it work too.  Life is pretty unpredictable for relationships to be defined merely by age (even if I used to have narrow view on this)

It sounds like Option 1 might be a long and complex road for you but if you're committed to it, it would work.  I assume that you've tried to fix things before, so figure out how you want this time to be different so you can be more successful with this work.  If it succeeds, you'd have a much happier relationship (with the family intact).  Should it fail (more time/years would have passed and you might still unhappy) but at least you know you've put everything you've got into it.

Good luck.

Edited April 25, 2022 by spiritedaway2003

[Will am I]

 @Wiseman2

Let's not completely focus on the emotional affair as if it were the root of all evil. The affair is obviously a bad idea, but my doubts about my marriage started way earlier, the affair for me is mostly a symptom of preexisting trouble (as well as a cause of more future trouble). In all fairness, part of the preexisting trouble has to be on me, part has to be on my wife. I don't think it would be fair that having a short emotional affair should put all the blame on me retroactively. I admit that it was a very wrong thing to do but it does not shift the responsibility for all (earlier) problems my way.

Ending the affair is my cup of tea. Getting OW out of my head is too.

Fixing our marriage is a shared responsibility between myself and my wife. That's what we are now getting involved in.

 

Quote

 

Good for you for kicking off the conversation.  The hardest part if often how to start that conversation - it's only the beginning.

I held back from responding initially because I have conflicting advice. There's the "general" advice I could give you, and then there is the more realistic advice having been on the other end of things.  My f(MM) was also like you so what you wrote is relatable (there was also no prior history of unfaithfulness on his end). Rather than saying that it is "wrong" for you to even have feelings for anyone else, I actually think it's a more helpful exercise to examine why you do.  These things do not exist in a vacuum.  Examine what is missing in your marriage that allowed you to open your heart to others.  Those are the things that you need to work on should you want to recommit back to the marriage (and if you don't want it to happen again and again).

I am grateful you stepped in. I am in the middle of a difficult process where I am structuring my thoughts and feelings. You and other respondents help me in this process, also because your perspectives are a reality check for me.

Side note: I'm not familiar with all the abbreviations. You speak of a f(MM), I assume you were at one point in the "OW" position?  No judgement, just trying to understand the context of your reply a little better.

 

Quote

I don't have super solid advice here but a few thoughts

1.  You made a commitment when you married.  Rather than think of as a commitment to stay at all costs even if you are unhappy, think about whether you would miss or live without your spouse if she is no longer in your life as a life/romantic partner.

This question is easy. I would miss her terribly.

First of all, she's a good person, a good wife and a dedicated mother to our children.

Second, at one point in time I was totally in love with her. Those feelings may have been severely damaged in periods with lots of fights, and later on periods with a lack of deep meaningful contact and intimacy. But they were never erased, something is still there (maybe under a thick layer of dust, but its not vanished).

Third, we go way back. We met only a few years out of university, most of my adult life has been shared with my wife. Breaking up after such a long period would feel like losing part of myself.

 

Quote

2.  Some people stay in unfulfilling/unhappy relationships much longer than they should. Are you really unhappy yourself (something only you can fix) or are you unhappy in your marriage?  It makes a big difference.  It sounded from your first post it's more the latter, hence #1.  It's often an uphill climb when one partner thinks everything is fine but the other doesn't, whether it's because the other partner is conflict avoidant or that there are communication issues.  When this isn't rectified, resentment builds but the "everything is fine" spouse is none the wiser.  Maybe start with some individual therapy first to identify the source of your unhappiness so you understand what you really need, and then work on marriage issues after.

This is such a complex question. I am all too familiar with melancholic feelings and I have struggled with outright depressions earlier in life. So a part of me feeling lonely is just that: me, feeling lonely. 

But other parts are really me feeling bad about the relationship. Numerous moments where my wife has ignored my feelings, pretending everything was OK, while for me it wasn't. I'm indeed the conflict avoidant type. She is not, so I've let her the upper hand and she's crossed my emotional boundaries on so many occasions. 

 

This is where there are different partial answers. A sense of loneliness just under the waterline, that's me. My wife having trouble respecting boundaries, that's her. Me being conflict avoidant and not setting my boundaries clearly enough, that's me. Her crossing my boundaries, that's her.

If I write it like this, it reads like a toxic mix of two incompatible characters. A boundary crosser vs someone who does not set clear boundaries. Maybe that's what's feeding a little voice in the back of my head which says that the marriage is over.

But then, see my answer to the previous question. I don't want it to be over. Some of our behaviours can be improved and I hope so strongly that we can fix it.

 

 

Quote

3.  If you choose to commit to the marriage, break all contact the the OW.  She will hurt, but going NC over time will help her to forget you and move forward with her life.  Part of the trap for you and many of us who's been in this position is both a blessing and a curse (empathy because how can two people who care for other turned out to be such a bad thing?)  As much as you want to make sure she is OK, it is your responsibility to take care of you and it is her responsibility to take care of herself.  Do not pay for her therapy.  If she is in a bad place, she will learn to seek help when she must. 

You are right. I've come to realize that over the past week. OW ultimately takes time and energy away from me that should go to my spouse. But on an emotional level, OW still feels like such a blessing. Probably that's caused by the feeling of being in love. Especially in the few weeks that OW and I had gotten romantically involved (and before I became very conflicted and started this topic), I was just to happy and upbeat and the atmosphere in my house was great and my wife and kids liked it. But obviously that's just a very temporary "fata morgana".

Quote

4. I believe you when you say you weren't looking. I certainly wasn't, nor was my f(MM) so I don't think the starting position is intentional.  Aside from that, a side note on age. There's also an age difference in my case.  When you fall for someone, it becomes immaterial.  Cliche as it is, age is just a number.   On a practicality level, it can be different being in different life stages, but plenty of people who do have made it work too.  Life is pretty unpredictable for relationships to be defined merely by age (even if I used to have narrow view on this)

Thank you so much for writing this. I'm happy to get this feedback from someone who understands where I'm at.

Infidelity is so often seen in from the legalistic perspective of guilt and blame. In that system, the people in the affair are perpetrators. And perpetrators are people who set out to evil deeds. Hence the assumption that it must be intentional. The other context is one of brokenness, loneliness, desperation, emotional and psychological problems (often predating the marriage), This provides a more humane perspective in which there is room for people who truly want to do good, but end up doing bad.

I don't feel like a criminal. I had no maliscious intent. I feel like someone who generally tries to do the right thing, but got into a place of hurt and tried to find comfort. And ended up doing something bad when I did find the comfort I was looking for.

 

I wasn't actively, deliberately looking. But as I later realized I was passively, secretly looking for this to happen. Secretly, not only from the people around me, I even fooled myself that I wasn't looking. So I didn't go on Tinder. But I did have a very open attitude towards new people passing by in my life. No evil plans, but a heart that was too open.

 

Age gap: when you connect on the emotional level it doesn't play a big role. It's only when you build an actual life together that it does. On the emotional level I didn't experience the age gap as large as it is. I just saw this (friendly, sparkling, somewhat hurt, yet hopeful and positive) woman. I liked her positivity. I found her mix of pain and positivity adorable. I found her adorable. I was in love. She could have been any age.

 

Quote

It sounds like Option 1 might be a long and complex road for you but if you're committed to it, it would work.  I assume that you've tried to fix things before, so figure out how you want this time to be different so you can be more successful with this work.  If it succeeds, you'd have a much happier relationship (with the family intact).  Should it fail (more time/years would have passed and you might still unhappy) but at least you know you've put everything you've got into it.

Good luck.

This is actually the first time that we dig deep. In the past, we've had a few conversations about wanting to change the dynamic and we've been able to make small changes. This time the stakes are much higher because I have realized that I'm not interested in repeating the old patterns for the rest of my life. The divorce option is openly on the table now, but if you scroll up to answer 1 you see that I will fight for my marriage. I know my wife wants to stay in the marriage, so the motivation is there.

I have good hope that we can change the dynamics if I learn to set boundaries and be more open and more honest to my wife, and she learns to be more sensitive to my boundaries and my emotional needs.

From my side, I think I am making big progress. Because of my decision that it's either fix or leave. Having decided that I am not going to stay in the marriage if it's a continuation of the old, makes it a lot easier to bluntly speak my mind. My wife actually needs to get used to the new me, but I know deep down this is a change she has desperately wanted. 

 

 

 

[Wiseman2]

8 minutes ago, Will am I said:

Let's not completely focus on the emotional affair as if it were the root of all evil. The affair is obviously a bad idea, but my doubts about my marriage started way earlier, the affair for me is mostly a symptom of preexisting trouble

Sorry you confused me with someone else. My advice was to work on yourself as well as the marital problems.

[glows]

The issue remains that your wife is still oblivious to your affair and that the OW leans on you or that you feel inspired to continue helping the OW after a break up. I hope that has changed. Have you broken it off yet? You are not a criminal but you are operating on all these options and possibilities without actually involving the one person who it affects the most, your wife. While you speak to friends and anonymous individuals on a forum, you wife doesn't know that you've been involved with someone else and yet having the audacity to claim that you want to work on your marriage. In reality, that ship may have long sailed if you all knew the truth. Your wife may feel like she no longer wants to work on this anymore and all those options and routes and strategies you have are out the window. It's incredibly sad that she was she was shedding tears over her marriage while not knowing at all about what you were doing behind her back. 

You had mentioned resentment in your other thread towards your wife for the way the way she ignored your feelings or there was lack of intimacy. Perhaps all this keeping of info from your wife and not being open about your affair has something to do with maintaining control over a marriage where you've felt you lost control a long time ago or were no longer a participant. As an outsider I can only share my thoughts with you as impartially as I can as I don't know you and have no ties to either you or your wife like your friends may. I think you have a lot of plans and hopes but the reality is the one person you're involving or choosing to take along for this journey doesn't even know the truth. 

Whether or not she deserves to know is another subject but I think if you were sincere it would come out in the process. Otherwise, I think it's way too easy to tell yourself that you are invested in your marriage when you really are not. I happen to think omissions of truths are equivalent to lies.