Help - long running doubts in marriage

[basil67]

13 hours ago, Will am I said:

Rewind >15 years. Back in the early days of our marriage I feel I adjusted myself for her a lot more than she did for me. I felt like I was taking three steps in her direction, waited for her to take one step in my direction, she typically wouldn't, and she'd be angry with me for not taking the fourth step.

Were the two of you a sexual match when you married and the sexual trauma happened afterwards?   Or did you already know it was a mismatch when you married her?   What you've written above makes me believe it's the latter.

I feel that rather than blaming her for making you feel rejected, you also have to take ownership of your own decisions here.  Thing is, it's terribly unfair to marry someone hoping they will change.  It's also unfair to blame them for your feelings of rejection when you knew what she was like coming into this.   Sexually, it sounds like she's achieved some small improvements, but she's essentially still the woman you chose and made vows with.  

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by basil67
repeating myself

[Weezy1973]

16 hours ago, Will am I said:

feeling is basically that she won't move. She will barely change any of her ways even if it's a small change and something that might have meant a lot to me.

She won’t move? Or you feel she won’t move? You’re conflict avoidant so how many times have you actually told her something meant a lot to you and then you’ve both negotiated a compromise? Or does she just say no? Or are you making up stories in your head?

 

16 hours ago, Will am I said:

Back in the early days of our marriage I feel I adjusted myself for her a lot more than she did for me. I felt like I was taking three steps in her direction, waited for her to take one step in my direction, she typically wouldn't, and she'd be angry with me for not taking the fourth step.

You “waited” or you explicitly asked? It seems you’re blaming her for a lot of things that are your doing. Could your conflict avoidant tendencies and your inability to set boundaries actually be the culprit here? How can you blame her for crossing boundaries if you didn’t express them? There were no boundaries to cross. Were you expecting her to read your mind? If so, again, a “you” problem. Not a marriage problem.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Weezy1973

[pepperbird2]

Op, I’m not sure if this will help or not, but it sounds like an issue my spouse and I had. (have)

when something upsets him, everyone knows it. He is very vocal. I’m not like that. Instead, I get very quiet. He assumed that meant I didn’t care, which wasn’t true at all. He held that assumption for 22 years! As he never mentioned it, I wasn’t aware it was even something that bothered him.  
 

i can’t really ever become a demonstrative person, but I at least let him know that , even if I’m not showing outwards signs, the angst is there.

[giotto]

4 minutes ago, pepperbird2 said:

Op, I’m not sure if this will help or not, but it sounds like an issue my spouse and I had. (have)

when something upsets him, everyone knows it. He is very vocal. I’m not like that. Instead, I get very quiet. He assumed that meant I didn’t care, which wasn’t true at all. He held that assumption for 22 years! As he never mentioned it, I wasn’t aware it was even something that bothered him.  
 

i can’t really ever become a demonstrative person, but I at least let him know that , even if I’m not showing outwards signs, the angst is there.

Who’s projecting now? 🙂

[Will am I]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:58 AM, basil67 said:

Thing is, it's terribly unfair to marry someone hoping they will change.

Let me address this first.

Yes, you are right. What you write is completely logical and fair.

But, no. In this  case I want to dispute the message nevertheless.

We're talking consequences of a childhood in an emotionally unsafe place, aggravated by sexual trauma in teenage years, which made physical intimacy extremely difficult for my wife.

But my wife and I both believe that there can and will be healing for trauma (it's part of our religious belief system). So it wasn't just me, hoping she'd change. It was us both, believing she would change. There was kind of a promise like "don't worry, in time this will get better and better" and not just my projected hope or desire. What I did is to hold on to that promise.

 

Also when I take the "don't expect your partner to change" statement more generally, there is a certain harshness to it. I know you didn't write this to be harsh, but let me explain.

If you don't believe in healing or change, then you essentially say that women who have troubles with physical intimacy will always be that way. From the male perspective this reads like: "don't marry a woman who suffered trauma, abuse or negative sexual encounters: you will never have a rewarding sex life". What if everybody would look at it this way? It would render a rather significant percentage of young women without the perspective of someone marrying them. But many girls who have been traumatized want to become wifes and mothers too. 

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:04 PM, heartwhole2 said:

This is an exciting place to be! And also daunting, I know. But you didn't even know there was a mountain there before, and now the fog is clearing. Whatever happens with your marriage, I think you are going to experience a lot more contentment and self-insight after doing this work.

We had a 90 minute counseling session in Tuesday night. Our counselor is a phychotherapist who works a lot with women dealing with trauma.

I let my wife choose the therapist. Before we started I was maybe a little bit reluctant: this (female) therapist seemed to specialize in counseling women; I wondered whether she would see my male perspective. But I decided to put that aside and go in with out bias and with open expectations.

Turns out our therapist totally understood me when I told about the "three steps forward and wait for her to take one step". She was connecting dots at a tremendous pace and from the reaction of my wife I must say she was nailing it.

One tiny quote says it all. Therapist to wife: "I'm calling you out sister" (about lingering in a pattern that had a very real reason to be there in younger years but could be resolved as time went on).

An interesting turn of emotions: I got protective of my wife. The therapist was never aggressive, but she was impactful. And she was questioning some of my wife's behavioural patterns. At one point I was like: let's not make this all about how my wife needs to change. I'm sure I have some issues too, let me take some of the fire.

This is really turning our emotions towards eachother. More affection, more openness, much more intimacy. My wife now insists on cuddling and kissing when I come to bed. 

Right now I'm so hopeful about what may be ahead for us. I sense much more excitement now about my wife than I did about xOW when we were falling in love.

 

On 7/20/2022 at 4:44 AM, Weezy1973 said:

Could your conflict avoidant tendencies and your inability to set boundaries actually be the culprit here?

I wouldn't say "the culprit". But definitely my tendency to conflict avoidance is a culprit.

(saying this because marital problems are generally the result mismatching behavioural patterns on both sides).

And I'm sure our couselor will call me out on it, and I'm happy to dive deep when she does. 

9 hours ago, pepperbird2 said:

I can’t really ever become a demonstrative person, but I at least let him know that , even if I’m not showing outwards signs, the angst is there.

I guess it's about learning our partner's needs and learning how to recognize them as much as it's about leaning to express ourselves to our partner.

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:04 PM, heartwhole2 said:

I have health problems and I can't accomplish much around the house, so on paper I don't bring much to the table, but we're happy and connected. Our home is full of joy and love.

That's just a beautiful outcome! 💕Thanks for sharing. Stories of people who have seen the depths and were able to move past them are so inspiring!

 

 

Thank you to all who are participating! Your presence, your time, your attention, your efforts have been instrumental for me to start understanding more about my own emotions and expectations. This is such a great help going into counseling. 

[basil67]

1 minute ago, Will am I said:

Let me address this first.

Yes, you are right. What you write is completely logical and fair.

But, no. In this  case I want to dispute the message nevertheless.

We're talking consequences of a childhood in an emotionally unsafe place, aggravated by sexual trauma in teenage years, which made physical intimacy extremely difficult for my wife.

But my wife and I both believe that there can and will be healing for trauma (it's part of our religious belief system). So it wasn't just me, hoping she'd change. It was us both, believing she would change. There was kind of a promise like "don't worry, in time this will get better and better" and not just my projected hope or desire. What I did is to hold on to that promise.

Also when I take the "don't expect your partner to change" statement more generally, there is a certain harshness to it. I know you didn't write this to be harsh, but let me explain.

If you don't believe in healing or change, then you essentially say that women who have troubles with physical intimacy will always be that way. From the male perspective this reads like: "don't marry a woman who suffered trauma, abuse or negative sexual encounters: you will never have a rewarding sex life". What if everybody would look at it this way? It would render a rather significant percentage of young women without the perspective of someone marrying them. But many girls who have been traumatized want to become wifes and mothers too. 

Learning that she was promising change does alter my messages somewhat.  

From a secular point of view I believe people can heal.  And we all change as we experience life.  I believe that healing will happen to varying degrees, with some making a full recovery and some making little to no recovery...and anywhere in between.  Your wife seems to have made mild-moderate gains to date.  Again, in my secular view, her reassurance that it would get better was not really something she could guarantee - and as such - I would have heard as a desire to succeed, rather than a promise of success.   Perhaps a better description of my message is "If there is trauma, work to overcome it. But if your partner can't fully overcome it, treat them with compassion, understanding and realise that it's not a rejection of you, but a manifestation of the trauma and a body yet to heal"  In short, my message is "hope for the best and plan for the worst".

But going back to your religion, do your teachings say that everyone will fully heal with time?   If so, leaving before it happens doesn't make sense.   Have you spoken to your pastor about how you feel?  

[Will am I]

The teachings (evangelical) don't make any individual promises. But at the same time they do give great expectations. Both my wife and I trust that God is able to heal anything and generally willing to heal those who confess their brokenness.

Our pastor is not personally involved. I am part of a mens' group and I have chosen to open up in that context. First because I needed to take the weight off my shoulders, second because I needed their prayers and third because we have a couple of young guys who are either getting married or have recently gotten married.

As a man in my 40s I feel it's a responsibility to project a realistic image of marriage including its struggles. How often do we say we're doing great? Especially about intimate matters such as our marriages. And how does that make someone feel when they are not doing so great themselves? I want my younger brothers to know they're not alone if they get into trouble. I want them to know that there are people out there who have been in a bad place and I want them to know they can come to me.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Will am I

[SummerDreams]

I'm someone who doesn't believe in forever. Me and my husband only got married for tax reasons after 11 years of relationship and 10 of them living together. I have never had the thought that we will be together forever because forever sounds so long and impossible. He has many flaws and so do I but we have an amazing communication that we have worked on from day one and we may have lost many things along the way but I won't allow to lose this; the open communication. We have both compromised A LOT and we have both had individual therapy that helped us understand ourselves and taught us how to behave in the marriage. I wake up every day making the decision to be together not because of obligation rather than a will to do so and this is how I would like him to see things as well. Life is unpredictable and there is no perfect marriage. If we continue to feel mainly good, we will stay, if not, we'll leave the marriage.

Saying all this to make clear that I don't believe in marriages that MUST work because of vows or the society etc. My advise for you would be to try some individual therapy, let all your thoughts out, discover yourself better and if you decide it will be better for you as an individual and for your kids as a father to leave the marriage, do exactly that.

Your wife realises her life will become a mess if you divorce and she is trying to do what cosmopolitan says to do in order to keep her marriage. I personally don't agree with this kind of behavior. If a spouse says they have considered divorce, I would let them go. For me having considered it is the same as asking for it. It means that they are not there emotionally anymore. Why prolong the pain? The door is right there, no need for more discussion.

And I'm a person who could forgive many many things including infidelity. If I say I love my husband I want him to be happy even if he is not with me. But I know this opinion is a little controversial.

[Will am I]

9 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

But I know this opinion is a little controversial.

Your opinion is valued, even if I don’t completely agree with you. 

If a person is considering divorce it can mean several things. 

One meaning is probably as you say, the person really wants out and is looking for ways to make that happen. Essentially they’re asking for a way out of the marriage, asking for their spouse to partner up in a separation agreement.

Another meaning is “help, I’m hurting, help me take away the hurt before I need to run out and dodge the hurt mysrlf”.

 

[SummerDreams]

1 hour ago, Will am I said:

Your opinion is valued, even if I don’t completely agree with you. 

If a person is considering divorce it can mean several things. 

One meaning is probably as you say, the person really wants out and is looking for ways to make that happen. Essentially they’re asking for a way out of the marriage, asking for their spouse to partner up in a separation agreement.

Another meaning is “help, I’m hurting, help me take away the hurt before I need to run out and dodge the hurt mysrlf”.

 

The fact that someone has to cry for help in a marriage and actually discuss divorce in order to get this help is a huge problem for me. I ask my husband how he's doing everyday multiple times, I make time to discuss with him everyday issues, what I heard in the news, all these things in order to create discussion, to laugh and have a good time. If a spouse is unhappy and their spouse has no idea about it then I don't see how this could change or even if it changes it still means that they didn't care for their spouse's well being before so maybe now that they do it is a little bit hypocritical or they pretend to do so in order to keep the marriage.

[giotto]

I would say that, if you need to threaten divorce to get your partner's attention, the relationship is pretty much finished...  

[Weezy1973]

11 hours ago, Will am I said:

Both my wife and I trust that God is able to heal anything and generally willing to heal those who confess their brokenness.

I’m wondering if your wife took a passive approach here waiting for God to heal. But to be clear she is going to actively be involved in the process. And sounds like your couples therapy may be a start. Perhaps Gods hand is giving people the courage to confront those things they would rather forget or ignore. But at the end of the day, she will actually need to do it. 

[heartwhole2]

Very happy to hear that you are seeing results and feeling hopeful.

I got married young - mid 20s - and I definitely just assumed we would grow up as we went along. I don't think I realized how much intentionality, effort, and trial and error is required. You don't learn new skills unless you seek out expert advice and put it into practice.

I also think the exercise of meeting with a therapist/third party is helpful. Even before you mentioned it, I saw how you were defending the very things about your wife that you had build up resentment about before. Being in a healthy relationship doesn't mean that you accept poor behavior or neglect, but no one is married to a perfect person. Your spouse will have their own sh*t, just like you do. If you can view their issues and weaknesses with empathy and understanding, it will go a long way in adding to that virtuous cycle I love to talk about. And then your wife, feeling your acceptance and support, feels more inspired to tackle her issues with renewed enthusiasm and commitment. Etc etc.

[Will am I]

18 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

The fact that someone has to cry for help in a marriage and actually discuss divorce in order to get this help is a huge problem for me. I ask my husband how he's doing everyday multiple times, I make time to discuss with him everyday issues, what I heard in the news, all these things in order to create discussion, to laugh and have a good time. If a spouse is unhappy and their spouse has no idea about it then I don't see how this could change or even if it changes it still means that they didn't care for their spouse's well being before so maybe now that they do it is a little bit hypocritical or they pretend to do so in order to keep the marriage.

When you're good and active at communicating this makes total sense.

Coming out of a situation where communication has been shallow for years, it's different. I was desperate to reconnect but the daily routine without good communication had become a comfort zone. 

Getting my wife to step out of that comfort zone was hard. Again, communication skills. It wasn't until I had decided and communicated that I would have no more along the old path, that she really came on board with me trying to give our marriage a second chance.

18 hours ago, giotto said:

I would say that, if you need to threaten divorce to get your partner's attention, the relationship is pretty much finished...  

I did my absolute best not be threatening her. To emphasize how much I wanted to be with her, closer to her, stay with her for a long long time. But the message in itself is kind of threatening.

And to some extent, the relationship is finished. I'm trying to build a new marriage with the same partner. The old one is dead regardless of the outcome.

7 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

If you can view their issues and weaknesses with empathy and understanding, it will go a long way in adding to that virtuous cycle I love to talk about. And then your wife, feeling your acceptance and support, feels more inspired to tackle her issues with renewed enthusiasm and commitment. Etc etc.

That's the dynamic I want to create more than anything.

 

[giotto]

1 minute ago, Will am I said:

I did my absolute best not be threatening her. To emphasize how much I wanted to be with her, closer to her, stay with her for a long long time. But the message in itself is kind of threatening.

And to some extent, the relationship is finished. I'm trying to build a new marriage with the same partner. The old one is dead regardless of the outcome.

That's the dynamic I want to create more than anything.

 

Yes, unfortunately, sometimes you give that message out even if you are not threatening. I actually, had to tell my wife at one point I wanted a divorce: prepare yourself to put the house on the market. She changed her tune, and we got on better, but it was just a façade. It's very tricky situation: if you don't do anything, you are sitting there ruminating and suffering, if you do, you know that could be the fatal blow. I preferred the second option. At least you feel you are in control pf your destiny. 

[giotto]

8 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

If you can view their issues and weaknesses with empathy and understanding, it will go a long way in adding to that virtuous cycle I love to talk about. And then your wife, feeling your acceptance and support, feels more inspired to tackle her issues with renewed enthusiasm and commitment. Etc etc.

This is the mistake I made, but when you've been stuck in the same situation for years, resentment builds up and your patience runs out. Also, you do need a partner who is really prepared to tackle their issues. Sometimes, they are so deep that they prefer to leave them dormant, without confronting them.

[Will am I]

12 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I’m wondering if your wife took a passive approach here waiting for God to heal. But to be clear she is going to actively be involved in the process

I think she has, in the past. This time it's an active process. And she seems very much engaged in the process, I must hand her that.

But it's only been short, time will tell if we are able to keep this positive vibe up.

 

Speaking for myself I have truly fallen in love again. And looking at her, I think it's mutual 💕

 

But I'm not a teenager anymore. I am able to separate myemotions and my rational ideas to some extent. Plan for success, prepare for failure. Podcasts and Kindle are still full of divorce related material. A part of my plan is that fear of divorce is not going to be the factor keeping me in the marriage. And I recognize that's still an area to work on; divorce is kind of scary (even if I do have a certain confidence that I'd be OK in the long run).

 

40 minutes ago, giotto said:

It's very tricky situation: if you don't do anything, you are sitting there ruminating and suffering, if you do, you know that could be the fatal blow. I preferred the second option. At least you feel you are in control pf your destiny. 

My choice on this one is very clear. In its most compact for, my message is that I want to improve the marriage or I want out. 

If that message blows up the marriage then I will accept the consequence. Because it would mean that improving is apparently off limits. So I would actuallty want out in that case anyway.

 

 

 

[SummerDreams]

47 minutes ago, Will am I said:

When you're good and active at communicating this makes total sense.

Coming out of a situation where communication has been shallow for years, it's different. I was desperate to reconnect but the daily routine without good communication had become a comfort zone. 

Getting my wife to step out of that comfort zone was hard. Again, communication skills. It wasn't until I had decided and communicated that I would have no more along the old path, that she really came on board with me trying to give our marriage a second chance.

So you are saying this time things will be different because your W didn't care before? And what is the reason that from now on she will care?

I think you don't want to see my point. You are dodging it but inside you you know the truth.

[giotto]

14 minutes ago, Will am I said:

If that message blows up the marriage then I will accept the consequence. Because it would mean that improving is apparently off limits. So I would actuallty want out in that case anyway.

The other side of the coin - the one I got, although not in a very explicit manner - is the failed acceptance of the partner's limitations. Granted, we had massive communication issues, but at the end of the day, it boiled down to that. And by not accepting her limitations, I was considered selfish. So, I felt rejected and she felt rejected. Stalemate. We had different needs and we became incompatible.  

 

[Will am I]

I know she cares. She cares about the institute of marriage (she aims for lifelong commitment), she cares about the idea of personally remaining in a marriage and she cares about me. When faced with the idea of losing me her hurt was very real.

I don't think this is about caring. It's primarily about empathy and communication skills. To a lesser extent this may be about match. We got into the marriage maybe a little bit recklessly. We were quick to get engaged in a time when a lot of things were changing in both our lives (especially mine). And we were almost two decades younger. Early days of marriage, lots of conflicts, lots of hurt. Many conflicts which we probably could have solved more elegantly if we were better communicators back then.

Later phase:back down from the conflicts, stop striving for maximum intimacy and establish peaceful cooexistence in the home and partner primarily about the children and the concept of being a family. Maybe we were checking out around that time, at least partially. But I was backing off from the conflict and the hurt.

Recent phase: realization that peaceful coexistence has not been ambitious enough. That the situation was killing me slowly. 

There has been a lot of debate about the marriage in this topic. And there's a number of people who think it's too good to throw away. Some people even wonder what the problem is excactly. I too feel that it deserves another chance. But this second chance is not without obligation or consequences. I don't believe you can make actual changes unless there is some sense of a time limit and there are consequences to failure.

I'm hopeful that the marriage will make it, but I'm not certain. 

 

9 minutes ago, giotto said:

The other side of the coin - the one I got, although not in a very explicit manner - is the failed acceptance of the partner's limitations. Granted, we had massive communication issues, but at the end of the day, it boiled down to that. And by not accepting her limitations, I was considered selfish. So, I felt rejected and she felt rejected. Stalemate. We had different needs and we became incompatible.  

I guess it is possible to either realize down the path that you weren't compatible from the start. It's also posible that you became incompatible down the line (especially after a long time of poor communication and drifting apart, but probably even without these factors).

Did you and your ex wife enter new relationships?

[giotto]

9 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I guess it is possible to either realize down the path that you weren't compatible from the start. It's also posible that you became incompatible down the line (especially after a long time of poor communication and drifting apart, but probably even without these factors).

Did you and your ex wife enter new relationships?

We are not divorced... we are just separated. She told me she is not looking for another man. She is well aware of her mental issues (although she behaves normally from the outside) and also has body issues. I don't think she will be wanting to get naked in front of anybody any time soon... 🙂 I don't think we were that compatible to begin with (although the first few years were great), but marriage and family life then put an enormous stress on our relationship and we weren't really equipped for it. I'm not looking for another relationship right now. I'm still recovering from the failure of my marriage. I'm not there yet. It was a surprise for me because things were getting better.

Edited July 22, 2022 by giotto

[Will am I]

Did you have a lot of conflict? If so, then I guess the moment she gave up is the same moment you experienced that things were getting better. Less conflict.

I have seen a similar paradox in family members of suicide victims. Shocked because "he seemed to be a little bit more optimistic". Reality is probably that the victim made the fatal choice around that time.

 

[Weezy1973]

4 hours ago, Will am I said:

. I don't believe you can make actual changes unless there is some sense of a time limit and there are consequences to failure.

I don’t think this is true. People make changes all the time to better their lives. But if you’re insisting on a time limit and consequences (ex. Divorce) then the changes have to be measurable and concrete. Not based on your feelings. If her behaviors change and you’re still unhappy, then you can rest assured that the problem isn’t her or the marriage. 
 

Also again, expectations have to be reasonable. A lifetime of habits, patterns and defense mechanisms won’t change instantly and it won’t be a straight line. There will be relapses along the way. 
 

Finally, you barely mention your kids. From what you’ve said your kids are doing well. So a divorce will definitely impact them negatively.  If your marriage was toxic (it isn’t) then a divorce indeed could be better for your kids. But in your case getting a divorce makes their life worse. As well as your wife’s. Again I’ll ask about your core values. What kind of husband do you want to be? What kind of father do you want to be?

Edited July 22, 2022 by Weezy1973

[mark clemson]

If you care to do some internet research, there is a claim going around (based on a scientific study) that successful LT couples report a ratio of 5 good interactions to 1 bad with their spouse.

That is a statistic, probably won't apply to every couple, and may get questioned/revised in the future. However, since no one and no marriage are perfect, if you're looking for a yardstick to (eventually) measure success, something along those lines might prove useful as a goal to strive for and/or a way to assess if "more work" needs to be done.

Of course the flip side of that coin is that continuing the marriage is a choice that both partners must make, and as soon as one or the other is genuinely making the choice to end things, it doesn't really matter how good the interactions, conversations, sex, finances, ability to support each other, etc, etc is or was.

[Els]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:16 PM, Will am I said:

If you don't believe in healing or change, then you essentially say that women who have troubles with physical intimacy will always be that way. From the male perspective this reads like: "don't marry a woman who suffered trauma, abuse or negative sexual encounters: you will never have a rewarding sex life".

It may be worth noting that not everyone cares all that much about having a partner initiate, or about having adventurous sex... or even about sex in general. I know that a lot of people believe that "all men are horndogs", especially if they themselves fall in that category, but it's really not true. Low libidos, a very vanilla preference or even asexuality can occur in men as well. I should know, I dated one in the past.

I think that it's fairly obvious that you and your wife are incompatible in that regard. Neither of you is wrong for what they want - she isn't wrong for preferring the kind of sex that she prefers, you aren't wrong for desiring a different kind of sex. But it's also untrue that no man would ever want a non-sexually-adventurous woman. There are quite a few out there who don't mind or even prefer that, as strange as that sounds.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Elswyth