Help - long running doubts in marriage

[basil67]

13 hours ago, Will am I said:

My choice on this one is very clear. In its most compact for, my message is that I want to improve the marriage or I want out. 

Back again to my question about concrete examples for your wife, what exactly would an improved marriage look like?  I'm guessing that you want to see her initiating and enjoying sex, but is there anything else?

At present, does your wife actually enjoy sex?  Or is she doing it to meet your needs? 

[Will am I]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:03 PM, Weezy1973 said:

Finally, you barely mention your kids. From what you’ve said your kids are doing well. So a divorce will definitely impact them negatively.  If your marriage was toxic (it isn’t) then a divorce indeed could be better for your kids. But in your case getting a divorce makes their life worse. As well as your wife’s. Again I’ll ask about your core values. What kind of husband do you want to be? What kind of father do you want to be?

This appeals to my morality and I generally support what you are writing. But at the same time I feel like I've been running on commitment and morals for years and I've been reaching the end of my stamina in these areas. 

As for kids in divorce, I do some youth work and I know a lot of teenagers. Most of them are ok, it's the ones with loyalty conflicts and fighting parents that struggle. I do worry a little bit about our son who is still so young. But to stay together for the kids, waiting for him to grow up, it's a long stretch that will severely limit my chances of finding new love.

On 7/22/2022 at 9:30 PM, Elswyth said:

I think that it's fairly obvious that you and your wife are incompatible in that regard.

If I look at all the areas of life, it's a mixed picture. I think my wife and I are reasonably compatible characters and we are quite compatible on the level of where we are in life and what we want to do with our lives.

Now I understand that "reasonably compatible characters" doesn't sound all too glamourous, but it is what it is. There's areas where we get along and are in sync. There's areas where we aren't. Sex is in the "not so good". 

On 7/23/2022 at 12:58 AM, basil67 said:

Back again to my question about concrete examples for your wife, what exactly would an improved marriage look like?  I'm guessing that you want to see her initiating and enjoying sex, but is there anything else?

At present, does your wife actually enjoy sex?  Or is she doing it to meet your needs? 

Since I'be become vocal about how I feel and how I don't intend to keep up the same patterns, my wife is making more of an effort in many areas. This accelerated when we started couples counseling. Right now I realize that we have the marriage I wanted. The challenge is to go from "extra effort" into a long standing habit.

 A few concrete details:

She's been initiating a brief moment of bedtime intimacy every night. Previously I'd come to bed and she'd usually wish me good night and doze off to sleep. Now she will turn around to face me, invite me to come close to her and we'll cuddle and kiss for a few minutes. These episodes have developed into sex once or twice (which is enough for me, it's not like I need to have sex every single night). I appreciate these moments tremendously.

When we have sex she seems a little bit more open to experimentation. It's still limited and I recognize that there are many blockers around (things that remind her of involuntary sex when she was victimized) but her mentality seems different. Instead of "don't do that" her response would be more like "please be careful". This is not kinky stuff by the way, it can be as simple as masturbation. For me this is a vital change to open the perspective on a rewarding sex life. Because I strongly feel we need to step out of the same old pattern, go back to zero and start exploring eachother as new lovers.

Does she like sex? Well she has orgasms most of the time. I guess that means something. But building towards an orgasm may take a long time. And it's far from linear. She doesn't gradually increase her arousal. She can go from zero to 15 in 45 minutes and then from 15 to 60 mph in 1 minute. It tells me that she's not very much in touch with her own feelings sometimes.

 

 

 

[SummerDreams]

I'm not sure a woman who doesn't want to have sex and has such deep problems will be able to maintain this for long. If she wanted to change she would have tried from the beginning of the marriage or even a little later. Staying in her comfort zone for years and then be obligated to change out of fear of a divorce is doing more harm than good to her psychology in my eyes.

I would hate to have to do that to be honest. Unless she really wanted to change all this time and she was scared how to and now the "tough love" has given her the motivation she was looking for.

[giotto]

26 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

I'm not sure a woman who doesn't want to have sex and has such deep problems will be able to maintain this for long. If she wanted to change she would have tried from the beginning of the marriage or even a little later. Staying in her comfort zone for years and then be obligated to change out of fear of a divorce is doing more harm than good to her psychology in my eyes.

I would hate to have to do that to be honest. Unless she really wanted to change all this time and she was scared how to and now the "tough love" has given her the motivation she was looking for.

This is what my wife did. The fear of divorce and having to raise small children mainly on her own, pushed her to change, but it only lasted until she had to.

[SummerDreams]

4 minutes ago, giotto said:

This is what my wife did. The fear of divorce and having to raise small children mainly on her own, pushed her to change, but it only lasted until she had to.

Exactly. The only way to make a change for ourselves is to want to do it, not being forced to. That's why I doubt the op's wife will maintain this behavior. If it was something she really wanted she would have done it herself way earlier. Now she is in robot mode, doing things she thinks will save her marriage. There will be a time she will want to go back to her old ways.

[Els]

1 hour ago, Will am I said:

If I look at all the areas of life, it's a mixed picture. I think my wife and I are reasonably compatible characters and we are quite compatible on the level of where we are in life and what we want to do with our lives.

Now I understand that "reasonably compatible characters" doesn't sound all too glamourous, but it is what it is. There's areas where we get along and are in sync. There's areas where we aren't. Sex is in the "not so good". 

Yes I understand, that's why I said "in that regard [re: sex]". And IMO it's completely fine and valid for you to decide that the other areas of compatibility outweigh the sexual incompatibility, especially considering your situation (a mostly-agreeable relationship with no abuse, married for a long time, young children, etc).

I was just trying to help you understand that your needs are not universal - not every man would be dissatisfied by what she has to offer sexually. Not every man would need her to change who she is. It is, of course, her decision to make as to whether she is willing to change for you, and if she decides that the other aspects of the relationship are worth it, then you are a lucky man. But you have to understand and appreciate that this is extra effort on her behalf, it is not a "default" that everyone can or does expect.

1 hour ago, Will am I said:

But building towards an orgasm may take a long time. And it's far from linear. She doesn't gradually increase her arousal. She can go from zero to 15 in 45 minutes and then from 15 to 60 mph in 1 minute. It tells me that she's not very much in touch with her own feelings sometimes.

Assuming that you're talking about dedicated clitoral stimulation (and not counting stuff like making out or penetration without clit stim), this sounds to me like whatever it was she/you was doing wasn't exactly right for the first 45 min, then she/you hit the right spot at the 45 min mark.

I obviously can't speak for all women, but when I get the right kind of clitoral stimulation at the right spot and in the right way, it is VERY effective and VERY fast. The time spent before that is mostly searching for that spot - hence the slow start and the very quick acceleration after a point.

[Weezy1973]

17 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

The only way to make a change for ourselves is to want to do it, not being forced to.

She does want to do it though it seems. From the sounds of it, she didn’t realize the impact this was having on her husband and marriage, mostly because he was conflict avoidant and didn’t really tell her. And now that he has she’s agreed to go to therapy.
 

The essence of change when it involves therapy is often “do the thing even if you don’t feel like it because it’s better in the long run.” Eat healthy food even if you feel like eating junk food because it’s better in the long run. Go into situations that trigger your anxiety instead of avoiding them because it’s better in the long run. Short term pain for long term gain so to speak. And the hope is that the brain gets rewired over time that the new behaviors become normal. Cravings for junk food diminishes. Anxiety is reduced from a 10 to a 5 in new situations. Etc. 

[giotto]

27 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

Exactly. The only way to make a change for ourselves is to want to do it, not being forced to. That's why I doubt the op's wife will maintain this behavior. If it was something she really wanted she would have done it herself way earlier. Now she is in robot mode, doing things she thinks will save her marriage. There will be a time she will want to go back to her old ways.

I will add too: the fact that she felt "forced" to go against her instincts caused her to detach from me even further, despite her somewhat changed behaviour. And I will also add: our marriage was mainly fine, until I wasn't happy any more. I wanted more than she could give me and ruined everything. Granted, her communication was zero, but she was still my wife and I should have been more understanding.

Edited July 25, 2022 by giotto

[SummerDreams]

1 minute ago, Weezy1973 said:

she didn’t realize the impact this was having on her husband and marriage

This is the key point: she didn't realize it or she did and didn't care?

[SummerDreams]

Just now, giotto said:

I will add too: the fact that she felt "forced" to go against her instincts caused her to detach from me even further, despite her somewhat changed behaviour.

I totally get it. If the will of change is forced to us, we tend to start to hate the person who forces us to change.

And then it's another thing: She might be wondering, why were you accepting this situation for years, you said nothing and suddenly you don't accept it anymore? It sounds selfish and maybe it is, but in her point of view her H let her think that everything was OK for years (or she wanted to think everything was OK) and suddenly she finds herself being accused for doing things she thought was OK to do.

It's unfair to do that and I know because my H is a person who used to keep things inside (despite me telling him from day 1 I want him to communicate) and suddenly one day he just had an emotional explosion and accused me of things I was doing that I had no idea were bothering or hurting him.

That's why I see nothing more important in a marriage than communication; Love is needed so the couple has the will and patience to communicate, no matter how hard it may be. And the couples we see getting divorced in the best of ways and remaining friends are the ones who always used to communicate. They don't hold grudges for years and suddenly on D-day they explode and reveal everything. They know each others' feelings and they decide they want to separate with all their problems discussed and solved.

[mark clemson]

It sounds like she's heard you on this and is at least trying. That is at least something.

The emotional dynamics of these things aren't always negative. Try to ensure as much as possible that she is actually enjoying the sex, not just doing it for you. Be fairly subtle about this, but make an effort. If you need to get in shape, put on deodorant, take a shower first, "use effective techniques" such as warming up with extended foreplay, etc, then by all means do any of those things that might be helpful.

Certainly try to ensure she doesn't resent you for having sex. That may take some "finesse" but you seem like a smart guy, so should be possible. Keep in mind that for women, the "quality" of the relationship often drives sex. So there may be some unspoken issues on her side as well that you should probably try to (cautiously/subtly) feel out.

Marriages sometimes take "work" and it sounds like you are both at least working on the sex aspect. While it's certainly not guaranteed, sex should help with you staying "bonded" as a couple. Not the be-all and end-all, but helpful.

Edited July 25, 2022 by mark clemson

[giotto]

3 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

I totally get it. If the will of change is forced to us, we tend to start to hate the person who forces us to change.

And then it's another thing: She might be wondering, why were you accepting this situation for years, you said nothing and suddenly you don't accept it anymore? It sounds selfish and maybe it is, but in her point of view her H let her think that everything was OK for years (or she wanted to think everything was OK) and suddenly she finds herself being accused for doing things she thought was OK to do.

It's unfair to do that and I know because my H is a person who used to keep things inside (despite me telling him from day 1 I want him to communicate) and suddenly one day he just had an emotional explosion and accused me of things I was doing that I had no idea were bothering or hurting him.

That's why I see nothing more important in a marriage than communication; Love is needed so the couple has the will and patience to communicate, no matter how hard it may be. And the couples we see getting divorced in the best of ways and remaining friends are the ones who always used to communicate. They don't hold grudges for years and suddenly on D-day they explode and reveal everything. They know each others' feelings and they decide they want to separate with all their problems discussed and solved.

In my case, I was very vocal about our issues, so it was no surprise to her, but she had mental issues and she never told me how serious they were, and if you add a massive lack of communication, you can see why I got it wrong. But I got it wrong nevertheless and I should have been more mature and understanding.

In the OP's case, the issues are very longstanding. I'm not sure how you can completely change from one day to another. Is it sustainable? I doubt it. But maybe she is genuine and didn't really know how unhappy the husband was. Also, remember that he cheated on her. Only emotionally but he did. Not sure how you can forget something like that. I couldn't. 

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, SummerDreams said:

I'm not sure a woman who doesn't want to have sex and has such deep problems will be able to maintain this for long.

Except that she does want sex. Her sex drive is a bit lower than mine but not drastically. Pretty normal man/woman difference as far as I'm concerned. And she is able to have orgasms during sex. As I believe the ability to have orgasms during penerative sex is actually quite a good thing, it's not like all women have that. 

My take on the sex life: sex is functional and not even bad. But it lacks fun. Should be more playful, explorative. With both partners looking for ways to turn the other partner on. Because that reflects commitment to your partner above simply meeting your own needs within some static and assumed comfort zone. This isn't about what we do or do not do in the bedroom, it's about the process of wanting to learn and please each other.

46 minutes ago, giotto said:

The fear of divorce and having to raise small children mainly on her own, pushed her to change, but it only lasted until she had to.

Time will tell. If it's indeed fear, it won't last. I believe there's more to it but there's only one way to find out. 

15 minutes ago, Weezy1973 said:

She does want to do it though it seems. From the sounds of it, she didn’t realize the impact this was having on her husband and marriage, mostly because he was conflict avoidant and didn’t really tell her. And now that he has she’s agreed to go to therapy.

That's what I think too.

This stuff is scary as hell. For her even more than for me, because I'm the one who took the initiative and I have an emotional head start in the process. I spend considerable effort comforting my wife that I'm still here and I don;t have one foot out the door and that she would know if I did. I feel that we're slowly getting to a point where my wife realizes that she too has something to gain from this situation. That she can experience a more committed, safer, more pleasant and more fulfilling marriage too. It's transitioning from fear into eagerness. I see some indications of that, but we're not there yet. If we manage to get to that point, I know we'll be great

24 minutes ago, giotto said:

I will add too: the fact that she felt "forced" to go against her instincts caused her to detach from me even further, despite her somewhat changed behaviour.

Like I wrote, I'm hopeful that we can move this away from the fear zone and into more positive emotions. Also (and especially) for my wife. If we can't, then this dynamic will blow up the marriage faster than if I wouln't have raised my voice and stayed in the peaceful coexistence mode. Personally I think that's gain. 

 

8 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

It sounds like she's heard you on this and is at least trying. That is at least something.

Yes 💕

Not there yet, but hopeful.

17 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

And then it's another thing: She might be wondering, why were you accepting this situation for years, you said nothing and suddenly you don't accept it anymore?

I've explained that to her. How I feel I've (or: we've) survived for years by taking it one day at the time and striving for peaceful coexistence over deeper intimacy. But that I have come to a point where I don't want to survive but to actually live. I relate this change in attitude to my age (mid 40s), where I start living more with the long term in mind.

 

[heartwhole2]

22 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

She does want to do it though it seems. From the sounds of it, she didn’t realize the impact this was having on her husband and marriage, mostly because he was conflict avoidant and didn’t really tell her. And now that he has she’s agreed to go to therapy.
 

The essence of change when it involves therapy is often “do the thing even if you don’t feel like it because it’s better in the long run.” Eat healthy food even if you feel like eating junk food because it’s better in the long run. Go into situations that trigger your anxiety instead of avoiding them because it’s better in the long run. Short term pain for long term gain so to speak. And the hope is that the brain gets rewired over time that the new behaviors become normal. Cravings for junk food diminishes. Anxiety is reduced from a 10 to a 5 in new situations. Etc. 

None of us can tell you where OP and his wife will be in a year or ten, but I do believe in our capacity to grow and change. Having had a conflict-avoidant husband myself, I can tell you that discovering the depths of his resentments and desires can be quite shocking. I fundamentally disagree with the implication that people only change their behaviors in order to get things from other people . . . that's certainly not how I operate. I want to be the best version of myself that I can be and you know who benefits the most from that? . . . Me. I want to be empathetic, kind, caring, etc. So when I get a bunch of feedback on how I can do that, then I am going to respond by trying to incorporate it.

Of course we're all on a spectrum and I may be on one far end, but I just wanted to reassure OP that it's certainly possible his wife is sincere in her efforts. As I like to say, the good energy builds and compounds. If they're having more satisfying sex than ever (or at least in a long time) then odds are even a predominantly selfish person is going to think, you know what? Let's keep doing what we're doing!   Breaking out of the rut is the hard part; keeping the momentum going is easier.

So much of this stuff is perspective . . . you can interpret the exact same moment in a positive or negative light a lot of times. You can assume your spouse is trying their hardest . . . and hey, maybe that's magical thinking. Maybe you are assuming good intentions when they weren't even thinking of you at all. But you'll be happier, and they'll absorb the message that you believe in them, and that will make them happier and more inclined to think of you, etc. We don't act in a vacuum; our actions contribute to how others around us act as well. Of course, there's always the risk that you'll put in this effort and think these positive thoughts only to be stuck with a partner who doesn't change or care. But if that's your starting point, then you don't have much to lose, right? Because your attempts to be the very best spouse you can be will help make you a better version of yourself regardless.

[SummerDreams]

I get what you all are saying but still something is bothering me. I find it unfair that the OP who was the 50% part of the marriage let the marriage become that bad that he was unhappy without giving any hints about it and suddenly he exploded to his wife and almost held her 100% responsible for the unhappiness he felt. The way you talk OP I feel you are some kind of teacher who demanded from their student to study more in order to pass the class and you are constantly judging them and their actions, being ready at any moment to dismiss their efforts and not let them pass the class. I mean, maybe you have written this and I missed it, but did you accept responsibility for the situation your marriage had gotten to be? What are the changes YOU are making to make it better this time?

I repeat, it's unfair and painful to let the other person think that everything is fine and suddenly explode to them and accuse them for a milion things you had no idea were hurting them...

[Will am I]

43 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

What are the changes YOU are making to make it better this time?

This is a valid question.

I'm in counseling and I'm actively figuring out how I can bring more to the table in terms of being a better spouse. One big change was to ditch the fear of blowing up the marriage and become much more open, clear, honest and specific in my communication.

I think conflict avoidance is generally a good character trait, but when you bring too much it becomes poison. I brought way too much into the marriage when I was younger. That's on me.

43 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

I repeat, it's unfair and painful to let the other person think that everything is fine and suddenly explode to them and accuse them for a milion things you had no idea were hurting them...

Another valid question. Did I let my wife think everything was fine? 

Maybe I did. If she didn't pick up the signals earlier on, there definitely was a time when I went silent on the painful topics. She could have taken that as a green flag.

I didn't explode and I try to limit the accusations and expectations to a minimum. 

53 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

but did you accept responsibility for the situation your marriage had gotten to be?

I'll take 50% of the responsibility. What I want from the marriage going forward is that it's a place where we both focus on the other's needs instead of our own. That has seriously lacked in the past and I'm to blame for my part in it. Which is that I pretty much stopped to actively look what my wife might need or want.

[Will am I]

1 hour ago, heartwhole2 said:

So much of this stuff is perspective

This topic is entirely my perspective. 

At the counselor's table we speak from two perspectives.

 

[Weezy1973]

16 minutes ago, Will am I said:

it's a place where we both focus on the other's needs instead of our own.

Instead of? Or as well as? And i’d suggest the attention paid to the other’s needs can only happen when those needs are expressed clearly. So frost step would actually be for each partner to express clearly their needs. 
 

Lastly it’s not really about focusing on the others needs, it’s more about acknowledging them, treating them as important and then coming to a compromise that works for both. Letting your wife spend money which drains your savings and puts you in debt won’t work, even if her needs are being met. Making your wife do things she actively doesn’t like sexually while meeting your needs, will make her less happy. There’s an inverse correlation. Compromise is the key. But also being happy with compromise. I didn’t get everything I wanted, but I know my partner sacrificed as well, and both being content with that as it’s good for the marriage.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Weezy1973

[heartwhole2]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:33 AM, SummerDreams said:

I get what you all are saying but still something is bothering me. I find it unfair that the OP who was the 50% part of the marriage let the marriage become that bad that he was unhappy without giving any hints about it and suddenly he exploded to his wife and almost held her 100% responsible for the unhappiness he felt. The way you talk OP I feel you are some kind of teacher who demanded from their student to study more in order to pass the class and you are constantly judging them and their actions, being ready at any moment to dismiss their efforts and not let them pass the class. I mean, maybe you have written this and I missed it, but did you accept responsibility for the situation your marriage had gotten to be? What are the changes YOU are making to make it better this time?

I repeat, it's unfair and painful to let the other person think that everything is fine and suddenly explode to them and accuse them for a milion things you had no idea were hurting them...

This reminds me that my husband talks about how we humans think we're only responsible for 10% of the marriage problems and our partner is responsible for 90%. But the flip side of that is that if you work to improve your side, then your partner feels a much bigger improvement since they are viewing your issues as 90% of the problem as well. I guess this mentality helps him!

I agree that it isn't fair to allow resentments to fester to the point that you have an affair and consider leaving the marriage and then you expect your spouse, who did none of these things, to sell you on staying. I think it's good that you pointed this out to OP. If OP's wife still wants the marriage after this, then that's an incredible blessing. But the truth is that OP's wishes matter just as much - they're either both in or there's no going forward. OP, what I would do with this perspective is recognize that the unfairness may hit her at some point. I'm not a petty person so I was able to view my husband's conflict avoidance and subsequent leap into an affair as somewhat understandable as far as human nature goes. But what can kill the marriage going forward is oblivious entitlement because at some point she will realize what summerdreams pointed out. Now you couldn't see what you couldn't see in the past . . . but as you gain more perspective and insight, there should be a commensurate shift in your ownership of your own unhappiness.

 

On 7/26/2022 at 10:29 AM, Will am I said:

I think conflict avoidance is generally a good character trait, but when you bring too much it becomes poison. I brought way too much into the marriage when I was younger. That's on me.

Maybe we are operating under different definitions of "conflict avoidant," but I disagree. When you come across a problem, you may choose to accept that the situation isn't likely to change and work on acceptance, but you are doing that consciously . . . not because you are afraid of hard conversations, but because the job or in-law situation or whatever it is is something you are choosing to put up with. But if you don't discuss hard things because you have a subconscious/irrational fear of other people being upset with you and then you blame them for not reading your mind, that's just a big old mess. To me the opposite of conflict avoider is not "drama stirrer" but relational negotiator.

Maybe by your comment you simply meant talking yourself through situations where you are annoyed with your spouse and not saying it every single time, and sure, I agree with that philosophy. Sometimes when you pause and think it through you realize that they had a good reason for what they did. The other day my husband asked me to walk back and shut a door he had just come through even though I am always fatigued and dizzy and had just had a particularly bad spell. So I did think, hmmm, that's a little inconsiderate, but then I realized that he was anxious to leave as quickly as possible for our date. He felt like he was holding me up and was trying to divide and conquer. So I didn't mention anything because there was nothing to resolve; I know that if a similar situation happens in the future, I can always say, "Oh sorry honey, I am still feeling too dizzy so please don't ask me to do anything physical." Because we're generally having positive interactions one moment of feedback is not going to derail us.

[Will am I]

13 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Maybe we are operating under different definitions of "conflict avoidant," but I disagree

For me it means the following: rather than fight back in any conclict, my natural tendency prefers to give in once in and withdraw a little bit for next time. Giving in is what keeps things pleasant, pulling back is what protects me from people taking advantage.

It's a strategy that works great in a lot of not-too-intimate relationships. Because it allows me to have a pleasant relationship with practically anyone. If people have a lot of conflicting attitudes, the relationship will just cover a smaller area. For example if someone has strong political views that I don't approve of, politics is out of the zone. But we can still be beer buddies.

Real life example: my MIL is a very dominant person and an extremely poor listener. She has two kids, both married. The kids' spouses are me and my SIL. I'm getting along wil MIL pleasantly (although we're not close, avoiding conflict means that our relationship can only cover a narrow area). SIL in contrast used to have a lot of conflict wil MIL until they pretty much ceased contact. I get to be the good guy in the in-law family.

Where the stategy doesn't work is when you apply it to an intimate relationship. Because it leads to boundary crossing, withdrawing and resentment over crossed boundaries. I let that happen way too much in the early years of my marriage, only recently have I started to reclaim the ground.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Will am I

[SummerDreams]

3 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I get to be the good guy in the in-law family

Do you care that much to be the good guy? The SIL was smart. She stopped contact with her MIL and she is now happy while you still have to deal with her and pretend all the time for what? The title of the good guy? I'm too old to care for being the "good guy". I just want to be happy and pretend as less as possible. Pretending sucks up my energy and I hate it.

[Will am I]

I don't experience the relationship as pretending. It's geniune. It's just trimmed down to remove the unpleasant parts.

SIL does what works for her. I do what works for me. Different personalities. I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here.

 

[SummerDreams]

16 minutes ago, Will am I said:

I don't experience the relationship as pretending. It's geniune.

Or maybe it's the brainwashing of society that has taught us we have to be likeable, good people, always there to help, treat others politely even when we dislike or hate them.

I'm happy I have managed to keep people I hate miles away from me. I consider it my biggest achievement in life.

Edited July 28, 2022 by SummerDreams

[giotto]

53 minutes ago, Will am I said:

It's a strategy that works great in a lot of not-too-intimate relationships.

yes, exactly, not-too-intimate relationships... it hasn't really worked great in your marriage, which is your most important relationship (apart from your children, obviously). This is why you are where you are, IMO.

[Will am I]

2 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

Or maybe it's the brainwashing of society that has taught us we have to be likeable, good people, always there to help, treat others politely even when we dislike or hate them.

I'm sure there's a character thing involved too. I guess some of us are more prone to want to please others.

2 hours ago, giotto said:

yes, exactly, not-too-intimate relationships... it hasn't really worked great in your marriage, which is your most important relationship (apart from your children, obviously). This is why you are where you are, IMO.

Agree. This is a part of me that I try to establish differently now. At least within the marriage.