What should I do as a feminine and less attractive guy?

[mark clemson]

Try to make yourself as attractive as possible with haircut and facial grooming. Wear nice clothes that fit you well/look good on you. Experiment with your body language/cadence of your walk, as some women respond quite strongly to this. Try to act VERY self-assured and try not to come across as "needy" or overly insecure or a downer to be around. Be genuinely interested in women without it being "all about one thing".

All of these are things that women respond to. At the risk of generalizing, women tend to respond more strongly to what you might call psychological sexual cues (e.g. confidence/self-assurance, social skills) than physical ones, although physical ones certainly play a role.

MANY men who are apparently extremely attractive to women are not particularly "manly", e.g. Michael Jackson, Tom Cruise and Michael J Fox (both quite short), Johnny Depp, many male models, all those K-Pop stars, etc, etc.  So it appears there's a certain % of women who are just fine with a not stereo-typically manly male and will go for that.

[SumGuy]

17 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

As a person, I definitely have my strengths, but, as a man, I can't conform to traditional gender norms. 

Why would you want to conform?  Believe me, many women are not fond of gender "norms" either. As it is all cultural, a norm here is a weird there.  If you are finding everyone buys into the norms where you live could consider moving where that is not the case, good news is usually where there are jobs (at all levels) there is also a greater breadth of what people like.

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I have never experienced a romantic love; whereas most women my age have had 3-4 partners. I know that women care about how experienced a man is as well. Even though I want to please a woman just as well as any guy she's ever dated, my lack of experience means I wouldn't be able to (in various ways). Well, at least not right away. 

There is no one thing a woman likes but in my expereince, it is not the lack of sexual expereince they care about it is the lack of relationship expereince...basically are you an a** or not.  Wouldn't worry about it as it can be a fine line of too many relationships, too soon, not enough, etc. and it will vary from woman to woman.

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I know that women don't find me attractive and think that I am inferior as a man since I can't conform to their standards. I just make other men look better. 

Again with the standards, there is no standard...ignore what the media and those who want to control you are telling you.  When I was young was told over and over how my not conforming to this or that would mean never get the girl, or certainly not that girl.  Little secret, plenty of women hate the "standards" and even if they conform on the outside (because hell hath no fury like the conformist police) they will be with you as much as they can.

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Even though I want to be a better man, it's hard knowing that it's impossible for me to achieve what a woman considers to be a man. I'm not looking to be comforted, but I would like a coping strategy or perhaps some advice

.It all is about what you seek, and if you attract those women.  I learned not to pine for women who judged me because didn't fit inside there idea of the "man box."  When younger never understood all the negative stereo types about women's behavior, nagging or saying things are fine when they are not, the crazy / hot matrix etc.  Thought it was just a huge exaggeration.  Then when older learned to present as the "standard man" and got with women that were very into that and "put up with" my non-standard aspects.  Lo and behold I discovered where the group of crazy lies. 

So that part may help you cope....you are not missing anything.

Strategy I found is to just be me, not hide the non-standard stuff, in fact put it out there in a positive manner...there are women for who that is a breath of fresh air.  And for those who it is not, hopefully they will pass your profile by and not waste your time.

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I'd like to be less jealous of prettier, more masculine men. And I'd like to believe that a special romance is waiting for me out there. But it's hard when women seem to only want one kind of guy and tell you as much. 

Never seen prettier and more masculine in the same sentence but perhaps behind the times    On looks there really is a broad range of taste, some like rugged like Danny Trejo, some pretty like Tom Cruise, some cheesy like Tom Selleck, with facial hair or without, long hair or bald, some big and muscular, some slim and not...or Harry Styles who is considered pretty hot and able to rock a dress by all the 20 something women I know ....that part is not hard unless you live in an area with few people then yah it can be a problem to get out of the local bias.   Sure each individual woman has her type, but different women have different types.

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It also isn't fair to me that other men get to have more relationships with women because they are (more often at least) within a woman's strike zone.
I'd like you all to assume that my assessment of myself is realistic. Even though I'm sure plenty of insecure guys come here looking for compliments, I'd rather hear what guys have to say about my situation as I've assessed it. And if you are a more feminine and unattractive man, what do you do about it? 

I believe your assessment of yourself is likely unrealistic but on what most women in your area want may be realistic forwhere you live.  I've lived in small towns, like less than 300 people over a large area and half like my 2nd cousin or closer...and get the feeling that there is only one way a person should be...and the pressure to not show you are different but any large metropolitan area and you will have no problems...unless where you live as made who you are illegal or a fair target for others. 

As to being emotional and sensitive, women love that...as long as you are not a whiner or a drama king.  One can be confident and can do and be emotional and sensitive...and it takes guts to not hide ones feelings.  It is more about if you can be there for them, be a support when needed, versus being needy.   The combination of emotional + sensitive + supportive/there shoulder to cry on...is the holy grail fro many women...the male version of a unicorn...especially if you are in good shape.

[SumGuy]

16 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

... But beauty, masculinity and etc. are hierarchical. People do in fact compare you against others, and your social standing is dependent on these factors (among other things like confidence, rhetoric, charisma and etc.). I'd like to know what to do for such a circumstance, and it seems unfair to me to pretend that these things aren't real....

Of course they are "real" but there is no one set of factors.  What turns on one group of women or men, and they value, is a negative to others.  You can try to change who you are to fit into what you perceive a certain group values, or find the group who values who you are.

My advice is be you and work on ways to find the women who like the you you are.  I can't tell you how great that is.

What you'll often get online is advice on how to get the women the responder wants...which may not be at all what you want.  Trust me, half the advice (especially from men, of which I identify) I see is a guaranteed turn off for the women I was after.   I use as tense as found my unicorn.

[SumGuy]

16 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

...There's a limit to what I can change as a person. Still, I do want to be beautiful, but I guess if I'm not then I'm just not and well I should get over it. I'm definitely too concerned with looks as you say. Of course, I have many ambitions as a person (learning, reading, exercise etc.). 

It still seems unfair to me that other people get to be beautiful. It's a great power in this world. 

Believe you are misguided to think beauty is one look and that the look you have isn't attractive to someone.  Women, in my expereince, have a much broader range of looks they find attractive than men seem to think.   You're into exercise so being in shape is something you can control and trust me, that goes a long way to being "masculine".

Beautiful people have there problems too, they often wonder if they are loved for their looks or who they really are.  They also often have to put up with being hit upon, their less "beautiful" partner wondering if they are good enough, etc.   Humans have an amazing ability to find the bad in any situation     

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Is it really so wrong to want to be someone different? I don't essentially mind that I have small hands or that I'm short. But when women point it out to you, it's clear that they care. All these things about myself have done nothing but cause trouble for me. Do I really have a right to have an unwavering belief in myself even when other people let me know that I'm less valuable to them? 

You do have a right to believe in yourself...especially if the basis for doubt are these shallow and immaterial things.  Heck I was raised that how you judge yourself should be on the basis of how you treat others.  In that regard, these people who are letting you know you are less than (I'm sure it is offered in "kindness" and to "help") are full of it.  That they can't see what they say is BS at best, does not argue well for them.  They are not wise, but myopic and judging.  People like that are a dime a dozen.  Sure it is their reality but it is not reality.   I remember them, and still encounter them...now I just smile and recall all the times I've found what they said I would never find.

[SumGuy]

15 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

Yeah this is something I worry about actually. When people insult you, I don't know what to do. Especially if it's a girl, I don't want to hurt her feelings and snap back. Or say something heated in the moment. And until now, I had thought it must be a legitimate weakness of mine, and that, if that's what they thought, then I want to hear it. 

In brief, you have to defend yourself when someone attacks you like that.

I prefer to kill them with kindness, to smile, to thank them for their observation.  If they really mean it as heartfelt (if misguided) advice then they will take it well.  If they really expected you to agree and get all subservient to their view they will get frustrated.   Best to pretend confusion (in a way it is not pretend as I am confused on how people can be so myopic) and just end the conversation with something like they have given you  a lot to think on.  That is how you defend yourself from attacks in the guise of socially acceptable conversation, calm, cool, collected.

Anger gets you no where, anger means they hurt you and even if they did why show it?  Don't seek validation from such people, and it takes skill and a lot of energy to get people to see their prejudices.  That of all the thing that make up a person, they need to point out you cry at movies or have smaller hands is a weakness of theirs and not you.  I generally feel sorry for such people unless they get aggressive (or passive-aggressive) and expect me to kowtow to their beliefs and prejudices.

[basil67]

5 hours ago, SumGuy said:

Never seen prettier and more masculine in the same sentence but perhaps behind the times    

Could be cultural.  For us, it's a different kind of 'pretty' to what one would use for a woman.  For us, in male use, it's a synonym for a guy who's got amazing looks and is also hot.  Even the intonation is different when saying it for a guy, more akin to the tone when someone is seriously smokin'.  It's a much higher compliment than the garden variety 'pretty' which is used for women.

Anyway....back to topic.....

Edited May 24, 2022 by basil67

[bradlyboy]

8 hours ago, SumGuy said:

I prefer to kill them with kindness, to smile, to thank them for their observation.  If they really mean it as heartfelt (if misguided) advice then they will take it well.  If they really expected you to agree and get all subservient to their view they will get frustrated.   Best to pretend confusion (in a way it is not pretend as I am confused on how people can be so myopic) and just end the conversation with something like they have given you  a lot to think on.  That is how you defend yourself from attacks in the guise of socially acceptable conversation, calm, cool, collected.

Anger gets you no where, anger means they hurt you and even if they did why show it?  Don't seek validation from such people, and it takes skill and a lot of energy to get people to see their prejudices.  That of all the thing that make up a person, they need to point out you cry at movies or have smaller hands is a weakness of theirs and not you.  I generally feel sorry for such people unless they get aggressive (or passive-aggressive) and expect me to kowtow to their beliefs and prejudices.

Thanks for all the advice SumGuy. I don't have anything to add right now, but I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. A lot of people seem to think that I'm a bit unstable. I'm doing fine for the most part. It's just that I do worry about whether or not women can like me. 

[dramafreezone]

14 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

Thanks for all the advice SumGuy. I don't have anything to add right now, but I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. A lot of people seem to think that I'm a bit unstable. I'm doing fine for the most part. It's just that I do worry about whether or not women can like me. 

Attraction is not a choice.  By default some women will just like you by looking at you, it's just encoded in all of us.  It's not something they can explain or you can explain. 

That said you can certainly talk women *out* of liking you by your attitude, your demeanor.  It's because when they looked at you, they also imagined a certain attitude that you had, and you didn't live up to that so it ruined the entire picture for them.

I've certainly looked at women from afar then become completely turned off when they started talking.  Your attitude and how you show up has a lot to do with how women will perceive you.  You can't control your looks but you can control what you project as far as attitude.

Edited May 25, 2022 by dramafreezone

[SumGuy]

15 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

Thanks for all the advice SumGuy. I don't have anything to add right now, but I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. A lot of people seem to think that I'm a bit unstable. I'm doing fine for the most part. It's just that I do worry about whether or not women can like me. 

Yah I don't know why people jump to the conclusion that if you have such typical worries and feelings one is a bit unstable.  Personally I think it just reinforces the idea that men with feelings = unstable, which is far from the truth.  Also people tend to share things here they would never say in person because it is anonymous.  So I do not assume you go around crying and hand wringing and generally a hot mess seeking constant validation from all and sundry :)   

Rather, think you have some "conform to the norm" folks in your life who are getting too much in your head...but that is part of life to learn how to deal with them, they never go away...always someone out there ready to tell you how to live your life the way that works for them.  On the last, I am no different...just saying one can easily be "different" in the way your are and do well in relationships with the caveat you are not in  a low population area with a lot of group think.

Doing fine for the most part...I'd say is good, so many are only doing fine occasionally :)  And worrying about if women like you, pretty sure every man ever (who has even a bit if self reflection) has had the same thoughts.  I thought and wondered similar things to you when in my 20s (now in my 50s); learned long ago women are not as into the stereotypical "masculine male" as society would have you believe...even decades ago when people in their 20s even were less accepting than they are now.

[flitzanu]

On 5/23/2022 at 5:34 PM, bradlyboy said:

And if you are a more feminine and unattractive man, what do you do about it? 

you find the Ego to convince the world and yourself that you're gorgeous and untouchable. 

you can't be a "macho man" as you've said, so quit trying to be.  you need to the whatever "man" you can be with what you're given.  if you're small and thin, find clothes that fit you, figure out what features you like about yourself and accentuate them.

i don't have muscles or a beard, but i can damn sure be prettier than any dude twice my size, and if you convince girls that you believe it, they'll believe it too.

[dramafreezone]

1 hour ago, SumGuy said:

And worrying about if women like you, pretty sure every man ever (who has even a bit if self reflection) has had the same thoughts.  I thought and wondered similar things to you when in my 20s (now in my 50s); learned long ago women are not as into the stereotypical "masculine male" as society would have you believe...even decades ago when people in their 20s even were less accepting than they are now.

Yes definitely, all men have that insecurity.

I'm of the belief that insecurities are not always a bad thing.  It's like fire; fire *can* be a bad thing in that it can burn or kill you if not handled correctly.  However fire can also provide warmth, light, can cook food for us.  Insecurities can motivate us to do great things, or we can let them destroy us.

OP, the goal is not to ignore or purge ourselves of insecurities, that's extremely difficult and something that's only mitigated over our lifetime.  It's to avoid *projecting* them.  It's tough, and something that's a challenge for most people if we're being honest.  But it starts with self-talk, a lot of us have to "fake it until we make it."  Over time the "fake" talk becomes embedded more and more in our psyche and replaces the older thinking. 

Our brain can only believe what we tell it to believe.  It just takes a lot of time to overwrite our internal coding that has been present for years and years, and takes dedicated, purposeful effort.  It's simple, but extraordinarily difficult to put into practice.

Edited May 25, 2022 by dramafreezone

[glows]

On 5/24/2022 at 5:57 PM, bradlyboy said:

Thanks for all the advice SumGuy. I don't have anything to add right now, but I appreciate the advice everyone has given me. A lot of people seem to think that I'm a bit unstable. I'm doing fine for the most part. It's just that I do worry about whether or not women can like me. 

The only way to find out is to get out there. Limit interactions with rude individuals, surround yourself with those who love you and appreciate yourself a bit more. 

[bradlyboy]

On 5/25/2022 at 1:25 PM, flitzanu said:

you find the Ego to convince the world and yourself that you're gorgeous and untouchable. 

you can't be a "macho man" as you've said, so quit trying to be.  you need to the whatever "man" you can be with what you're given.  if you're small and thin, find clothes that fit you, figure out what features you like about yourself and accentuate them.

i don't have muscles or a beard, but i can damn sure be prettier than any dude twice my size, and if you convince girls that you believe it, they'll believe it too.

I do wish this was an option for me, as I've talked about it in the thread before, but, aside from basic things like grooming and fashion, not much I can do to improve my beauty. I don't have a pretty face. I'm certainly not bad, but I'm not beautiful or pretty. 

I do like your idea of accentuating my good features. I have really voluminous hair, full lips, full eyebrows which are all features that people tend to like. I do keep my hair long and like it that way. 

And I would be so much happier with myself if I thought I was good looking and untouchable and had that confidence. But it's hard to project such confidence when the mirror does not lie. 

[basil67]

1 hour ago, bradlyboy said:

And I would be so much happier with myself if I thought I was good looking and untouchable and had that confidence. But it's hard to project such confidence when the mirror does not lie. 

When it comes to looks, most of us are degrees of average.   And more so for men because they don't fake their appearance using makeup.  But lack of looks doesn't stop most of them from being confident.   Why do you think that this issue around being good looking affects you more than others?

[Wiseman2]

3 hours ago, bradlyboy said:

. I don't have a pretty face. I'm certainly not bad, but I'm not beautiful or pretty. 

.I have really voluminous hair, full lips, full eyebrows.

You keep using feminine standards of attractiveness such as "pretty", "beautiful",etc. Just curious if that is a language translation situation or something else.

[Alpacalia]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:34 PM, bradlyboy said:

Hello All,

Of course this sounds like I'm incredibly insecure. However, I am telling the truth. I am very emotional, sensitive and effeminate, but I'm not a pretty boy. I cry very often. And my hands and feet are usually smaller than the average woman. I'm also short. I've more or less come to accept this and I try hard to love myself and appreciate my body. As a person, I definitely have my strengths, but, as a man, I can't conform to traditional gender norms. 
I have never experienced a romantic love; whereas most women my age have had 3-4 partners. I know that women care about how experienced a man is as well. Even though I want to please a woman just as well as any guy she's ever dated, my lack of experience means I wouldn't be able to (in various ways). Well, at least not right away. 
I know that women don't find me attractive and think that I am inferior as a man since I can't conform to their standards. I just make other men look better. 
Even though I want to be a better man, it's hard knowing that it's impossible for me to achieve what a woman considers to be a man. I'm not looking to be comforted, but I would like a coping strategy or perhaps some advice. I'd like to be less jealous of prettier, more masculine men. And I'd like to believe that a special romance is waiting for me out there. But it's hard when women seem to only want one kind of guy and tell you as much. 
It also isn't fair to me that other men get to have more relationships with women because they are (more often at least) within a woman's strike zone.
I'd like you all to assume that my assessment of myself is realistic. Even though I'm sure plenty of insecure guys come here looking for compliments, I'd rather hear what guys have to say about my situation as I've assessed it. And if you are a more feminine and unattractive man, what do you do about it? 

Was this told to you?

No, seriously. Where's your info from? Which sources? What led you to that conclusion?

Have you talked to any women about it? How many men?

Do most of them say women only like tall, muscular men? Is it true women never get rejected or refused dates? Women do not have to make an effort to be attractive or to find a partner, according to whom?

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it's rather like when someone loses weight and discovers that their old pants size no longer fits them. They are still the same person as before, just wearing different clothes. Their weight was never an issue; their beliefs were.

Certainly not trying to minimize, but let's be honest here as we're all human and we all have weaknesses and flaws.

Though there is a catch here:  I'm not sure it's possible to change things based upon what other people think or approve of. Those things have to be done for yourself and in a way that makes you feel good about yourself.

All this boils down to is the fact that you can't rely on others' reactions and judgements to decide if you're attractive or not. Therein lies the trap; all it does is make sure you'll never have a reliable, consistent sense of self-worth. You just have to try to trust your own inner judgments more. Or you'll always be at the mercy of strangers' judgement, and you'll never be able to feel comfortable in your own skin despite what they may think.

[basil67]

7 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

You keep using feminine standards of attractiveness such as "pretty", "beautiful",etc. Just curious if that is a language translation situation or something else.

Someone else asked the same question back in the thread.  

Where I live, "pretty" for a guy means a combination of handsome face and smokin hot.  That in in 100 who makes the girls squirm just by looking at him.   And it's said with the same intonation one would use for a guy who's smokin.  It's a much higher compliment than "pretty" for a woman. 

[flitzanu]

10 hours ago, basil67 said:

Someone else asked the same question back in the thread.  

Where I live, "pretty" for a guy means a combination of handsome face and smokin hot.  That in in 100 who makes the girls squirm just by looking at him.   And it's said with the same intonation one would use for a guy who's smokin.  It's a much higher compliment than "pretty" for a woman. 

i don't know if that's universal.  mine isn't a translation issue though.  i have above averagely-feminine features and body shape/type, not much masculine about me.  so, "pretty" in my terms is, well, i once literally had a lesbian (in a bar) tell me that even though i'm a man (and she's a lesbian) that i'm pretty enough she wanted to, um, you know the rest.  to/with/on/in/near me.

i've always assumed pretty to just be visually appealing  and just to mean not "masculine rugged handsome".  that's an interesting take though, basil.

[bradlyboy]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

When it comes to looks, most of us are degrees of average.   And more so for men because they don't fake their appearance using makeup.  But lack of looks doesn't stop most of them from being confident.   Why do you think that this issue around being good looking affects you more than others?

I do want to be beautiful. It's an internal desire I have. The responses I get from women let me know that I'm not to them. I want to try having an internal sense of beauty based on what people have said here and other advice I've received. And I'd also like to start having confidence in my looks. 

[bradlyboy]

14 hours ago, basil67 said:

Why do you think that this issue around being good looking affects you more than others?

I think the idea of beauty effects me more because I want it very badly. And so I have all these bad ideas about my appearance because I know I'm not super good looking. 

In a regular sense, it probably doesn't affect me more than others, but still it's hard not to be jealous of good looking people. 

[bradlyboy]

13 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

You keep using feminine standards of attractiveness such as "pretty", "beautiful",etc. Just curious if that is a language translation situation or something else.

I want to be beautiful in the way that the ocean is. Or a nice view of a mountain or grassy plains. I want to be nice and pleasing to look at, and there's no other word for that, to me, other than beauty. 

[bradlyboy]

13 hours ago, Alpacalia said:

Was this told to you?

No, seriously. Where's your info from? Which sources? What led you to that conclusion?

Have you talked to any women about it? How many men?

Do most of them say women only like tall, muscular men? Is it true women never get rejected or refused dates? Women do not have to make an effort to be attractive or to find a partner, according to whom?

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it's rather like when someone loses weight and discovers that their old pants size no longer fits them. They are still the same person as before, just wearing different clothes. Their weight was never an issue; their beliefs were.

Certainly not trying to minimize, but let's be honest here as we're all human and we all have weaknesses and flaws.

Though there is a catch here:  I'm not sure it's possible to change things based upon what other people think or approve of. Those things have to be done for yourself and in a way that makes you feel good about yourself.

All this boils down to is the fact that you can't rely on others' reactions and judgements to decide if you're attractive or not. Therein lies the trap; all it does is make sure you'll never have a reliable, consistent sense of self-worth. You just have to try to trust your own inner judgments more. Or you'll always be at the mercy of strangers' judgement, and you'll never be able to feel comfortable in your own skin despite what they may think.

A lot of it is based on my personal experiences. What women have told me. What people have told me about myself and etc. I've always been told that I'm more girly or feminine and etc. 

[glows]

I'm usually looking at signs a person is healthy, not necessarily beautiful. Bright eyes or able to follow a conversation, understanding, empathetic, tone, inflection, body language. This is also starting to make me think about my own perceptions of beauty and maybe there are individuals I'm not finding "beautiful" or good looking because I've interpreted them as unhealthy or made some other stereotypical judgment or come to a conclusion that is untrue. 

There are women who find some effeminate men attractive, slender men or men with fine features. 

 

[Wiseman2]

24 minutes ago, bradlyboy said:

I want to be beautiful in the way that the ocean is. Or a nice view of a mountain or grassy plains. I want to be nice and pleasing to look at, and there's no other word for that, to me, other than beauty. 

Unfortunately all you can do is make the best of what you've got. Google "Body Dysmorphic Disorder".

Also vanity and excessive focus on one's looks ironically makes one unattractive. The oceans and mountains aren't thinking about how beautiful they are, nor are they "perfect".

When you stop obsessing about your looks you'll become more attractive as a whole.

[Lisa]

Thread closed as question has been thoroughly answered.