What should I do as a feminine and less attractive guy?

[Era of Flies]

Kind greetings to all,

I made a post on this forum over 6 months ago, subsequently loosing access to my account from sheer forgetfulness. It's possible you remember my post and it's possible you don't, so I'll try and reiterate what I was saying, and include some of the reasonable responses many kind individuals gave me (as I remember them anyway). In the previous post, I described myself as a feminine man with little experience. Short, but above all suffering from rejection and self-hatred (which many people rightly pointed out). I think the most common response was something like "you are just insecure, and you can't date if you are insecure." Many people told me I likely needed therapy.

I thought I'd take a crack at writing another post seeing what you guys have to say considering that, overall, my mindset has improved and my thoughts about my situation have changed. I hope I'm not reiterating too much from the first post. 

Let me start out by saying I still ultimately hate myself and hate my body. I know I shouldn't, and I try to be conscious about it and be nicer to myself over all, but that hatred is still somewhere deep down within me. I'm a shorter guy with delicate features (which I hate), but I'm not pretty either (which I hate). On top of that, I'm intensely passionate and emotional, which I resent. For me, the most common and recurring descriptor of who I am in my life is that I am "like a woman" (which I'm obviously seething about). The thing is, it's true, and there's simply no escaping it for me. I don't know why (there are a lot of reasons), but it is very accurate to say that I am "like a woman." I don't mean to be demeaning towards women, and, I know there are lots of strong women out there, but to be this way as a man has its complications and downsides. Don't get me wrong. There are upsides and sometimes I am even grateful for my femininity. But on the whole, I would say being a feminine man is something that men do not want to be, and it's for a reason. 

I'm not saying I don't have a masculine side. I do. It's just that it isn't an issue in my life, and never causes me any problems.

When I was very young I started have romantic fantasies about girls (it's normal I know). I remember having an imaginary girlfriend before I could read (maybe this isn't lol). Basically, I've always been crazy about girls, which most guys are I guess. For me, at the time, women seemed to be the one hope of our world. They were kinder than us. Gentler and more intuitive than us. They could understand how I felt in a way which men did not. I idealized them (which I recognize now that you shouldn't do). I looked up to and admired them. At the very least, I did not want to grow up to be like my father. Aggressive, shouting my mother down. 

I wanted to be a man that was for them. A man that would listen. A man that would treat them as they deserved to be treated, with kindness and respect. And I wanted, at last, to give them what they wanted. To be what they wanted. And to be among them, pleasing them. 

It's no secret that it is wrong for a man to cry, all of us know. But being as I am, I am often getting emotional about things and shedding tears. Maybe you see where I am going with this. A short and delicate but sort of homely man that cries easily, often. What could I possibly have to offer a woman? What woman wants a man like that?

For various reasons, thinking about what I want in bed (sexually) is a difficult problem. Being the kind of creature that I am, I was fantasizing about my wedding night. I began to wonder what would happen, and, I realized, after many years of living in this body and having this personality, what would happen. My first time having sex. That what would happen on the marital bed is that I would be unbale to contain my emotions and dutifully fulfill my task as a lover. I would begin crying, almost certainly. If not at some point during the act, then immediately after. A man that cries during sex. Could a woman imagine anything worse? Anything more of a turn off? Anything less suited to their feminine sexual needs? 

But all the same, I know it would happen. I assume some of you won't believe me. I know it sounds ridiculous. 

And then I began wondering what even would be the point of pursuing a relationship. I don't have any of the masculine things a woman wants. How can I ever provide for her as a man? How can I please her as a woman? And to top it all off, the ultimate humiliation awaits me on our first night. Any woman that would want me would have to be a saint of romance. A truly selfless woman. 

Well, you know why I am here, I don't actually want to give up. I still desire women, and I want to have a long and happy marriage, spending my life forever with one person because I love them. But guys, let's drop all the pretenses. I'm in a very difficult situation, and I don't currently understand or see any light of hope. Surely, there is likely a solution, but I don't see what to do. No clues. No hints. I'm in a real mess, but I'd like to know what you guys think, and I hope I haven't done a terrible job describing things. 

[basil67]

I'd start by addressing the crying.   Crying isn't in itself a bad thing for either a man or woman, but it does become problematic when it happens so often that it starts to cause anxiety or problems for the person.   Have you actually done any of the therapy which has been suggested?   And have you had a mental health assessment?

I am also concerned about you gendering your experience.  Thing is, I'm not seeing feminine traits in anything you've you described.  Rather I'm seeing mental health issues.  

[Era of Flies]

I definitely have mental health issues, and have had therapy in the past. Even though I'm often crying for example, it's not always for despair or any serious reason. I just happen to get emotional, watching a film or reading a book for example, and I start crying. Very simple. My crying isn't really an impingement on my life in any other way than in my relationships with women. And it's not like, say, I would be weeping during intercourse from despair or anything. Very likely it would be because I am happy, with someone I love, doing something that is a very big deal for me. I don't think therapy is going to fix how emotional I am, and how easily I can become emotional. In general, it's not an impediment to my life. 

Second, I know I didn't completely go over everything entirely well, but it's almost certainly true that I am feminine. Our experiences as human beings is gendered, that's a fact. What do you want me to do? Give you a list of stereotypes which I fall into? How else am I supposed to demonstrate to you that I am feminine? It's just a recurring feature of my life, simple as. Completely defines who I am etc. I have to live with this whether or not you believe me, and I would like to see some responses that aren't skeptical of this.  

[Era of Flies]

14 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'd start by addressing the crying.   Crying isn't in itself a bad thing for either a man or woman, but it does become problematic when it happens so often that it starts to cause anxiety or problems for the person.   Have you actually done any of the therapy which has been suggested?   And have you had a mental health assessment?

I am also concerned about you gendering your experience.  Thing is, I'm not seeing feminine traits in anything you've you described.  Rather I'm seeing mental health issues.  

 

Just now, Era of Flies said:

I definitely have mental health issues, and have had therapy in the past. Even though I'm often crying for example, it's not always for despair or any serious reason. I just happen to get emotional, watching a film or reading a book for example, and I start crying. Very simple. My crying isn't really an impingement on my life in any other way than in my relationships with women. And it's not like, say, I would be weeping during intercourse from despair or anything. Very likely it would be because I am happy, with someone I love, doing something that is a very big deal for me. I don't think therapy is going to fix how emotional I am, and how easily I can become emotional. In general, it's not an impediment to my life. 

Second, I know I didn't completely go over everything entirely well, but it's almost certainly true that I am feminine. Our experiences as human beings is gendered, that's a fact. What do you want me to do? Give you a list of stereotypes which I fall into? How else am I supposed to demonstrate to you that I am feminine? It's just a recurring feature of my life, simple as. Completely defines who I am etc. I have to live with this whether or not you believe me, and I would like to see some responses that aren't skeptical of this.  

Sorry!! I have no idea how to reply. 

[Era of Flies]

2 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

I definitely have mental health issues, and have had therapy in the past. Even though I'm often crying for example, it's not always for despair or any serious reason. I just happen to get emotional, watching a film or reading a book for example, and I start crying. Very simple. My crying isn't really an impingement on my life in any other way than in my relationships with women. And it's not like, say, I would be weeping during intercourse from despair or anything. Very likely it would be because I am happy, with someone I love, doing something that is a very big deal for me. I don't think therapy is going to fix how emotional I am, and how easily I can become emotional. In general, it's not an impediment to my life. 

Second, I know I didn't completely go over everything entirely well, but it's almost certainly true that I am feminine. Our experiences as human beings is gendered, that's a fact. What do you want me to do? Give you a list of stereotypes which I fall into? How else am I supposed to demonstrate to you that I am feminine? It's just a recurring feature of my life, simple as. Completely defines who I am etc. I have to live with this whether or not you believe me, and I would like to see some responses that aren't skeptical of this.  

I could explain to you, for example, that I was immediately and passionately drawn towards feminine objects as a child. I wanted to play with barbie dolls. I wanted to wear cute girls' clothes. Etc. I don't really feel the need to keep going. But you can assume it's more of the same all the way down. 

[basil67]

44 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

I definitely have mental health issues, and have had therapy in the past. Even though I'm often crying for example, it's not always for despair or any serious reason. I just happen to get emotional, watching a film or reading a book for example, and I start crying. Very simple. My crying isn't really an impingement on my life in any other way than in my relationships with women. And it's not like, say, I would be weeping during intercourse from despair or anything. Very likely it would be because I am happy, with someone I love, doing something that is a very big deal for me. I don't think therapy is going to fix how emotional I am, and how easily I can become emotional. In general, it's not an impediment to my life. 

My husband and father both cry in emotional films.  It's not at all unusual.  Have you had sex before?  Because I get a feeling that you're over thinking it.   You may well find that it's fun and exciting and you're elated rather than having a deep and emotional experience.

40 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

Second, I know I didn't completely go over everything entirely well, but it's almost certainly true that I am feminine. Our experiences as human beings is gendered, that's a fact. What do you want me to do? Give you a list of stereotypes which I fall into? How else am I supposed to demonstrate to you that I am feminine? It's just a recurring feature of my life, simple as. Completely defines who I am etc. I have to live with this whether or not you believe me, and I would like to see some responses that aren't skeptical of this.  

I could explain to you, for example, that I was immediately and passionately drawn towards feminine objects as a child. I wanted to play with barbie dolls. I wanted to wear cute girls' clothes. Etc. I don't really feel the need to keep going. But you can assume it's more of the same all the way down. 

I'm not skeptical, though I did want to rule out the idea that you related crying to being feminine.  Another reason I ask is because even as a woman, I cannot relate to what it is to feel "feminine" so my lived experience is different to yours.   And also, that something is stereotyped for a particular gender does not make it true that a person who does that activity is like that gender.  

Have you considered whether or not you fall into an LGBTQI+ category?  Do you feel as though you should have been born female?   Or are you comfortable as man who happens to identify stereotypically feminine things?   Or something else different again?

[Era of Flies]

2 minutes ago, basil67 said:

My husband and father both cry in emotional films.  It's not at all unusual.  Have you had sex before?  Because I get a feeling that you're over thinking it.   You may well find that it's fun and exciting and you're elated rather than having a deep and emotional experience.

I haven't. But I am somewhat knowledgeable on the topic, sex studies, feminism, and psychology. Not bragging, but it's not like information about sex is inaccessible even to a clueless virgin like me. There's no question that it would be all of that for me as you say it is. But it simply would be an emotional experience for me regardless because it's a big deal to me. Like, yes, I would really like to imagine I can be everything a woman wants in bed. I'm not saying this because I want to. It's something deeper than a hunch, real insight into who I am. To be clear, my life would be a lot easier if I could think of sex as no big deal. But it's just a big deal to me, some kind of truth about me if you will. 

And that's the thing, let's suppose I'm over-exaggerating. I will almost certainly be tearing up the first time she kisses me. I mean anything really could set me off. The thing is, most women just aren't ok with this. They want a stoic ideal for a man, and I'm sad that I can't give it to them. 

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I'm not skeptical, though I did want to rule out the idea that you related crying to being feminine. 

 It's more, I think, the emotionality rather than the crying. But the crying is related to it. Obv I'm not saying crying makes you a woman, but in my case it is related. 

16 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Another reason I ask is because even as a woman, I cannot relate to what it is to feel "feminine" so my lived experience is different to yours.   And also, that something is stereotyped for a particular gender does not make it true that a person who does that activity is like that gender. 

Yeah, I'm not sure what femininity is either. But I have had an identification with it since I've been conscious. In some sense, these actions are usually representative of that. In my case, basically, it just so happens to be true. But it's easy to point out stereotypical markers and hard to prove that I actually am what I say. Ultimately, though, if I was coming in here as a masculine man saying "hey guys I am a masculine man I have a question about girls" I likely wouldn't be questioned. 

 

22 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Have you considered whether or not you fall into an LGBTQI+ category?  Do you feel as though you should have been born female?   Or are you comfortable as man who happens to identify stereotypically feminine things?   Or something else different again?

Well, if you want to say I am kind of queer. Then fine. I can identify as a +. But yeah, at the end of the day I am a dude who happens to be feminine. It is kind of subversive, but it's not really the same as being LGBTQI+ as you put it. I am comfortable being a man. It's true that sometimes I hate myself because I am too feminine, but I try to have a more positive attitude about it. In general, my interests are feminine too. I'm not trying to say I have no masculinity, I do. I like masculinity a lot, and I really like certain things about masculinity.

[basil67]

36 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

I haven't. But I am somewhat knowledgeable on the topic, sex studies, feminism, and psychology. Not bragging, but it's not like information about sex is inaccessible even to a clueless virgin like me. There's no question that it would be all of that for me as you say it is. But it simply would be an emotional experience for me regardless because it's a big deal to me. Like, yes, I would really like to imagine I can be everything a woman wants in bed. I'm not saying this because I want to. It's something deeper than a hunch, real insight into who I am. To be clear, my life would be a lot easier if I could think of sex as no big deal. But it's just a big deal to me, some kind of truth about me if you will. 

Sex IS a big deal - it's why so many want a long term partner with a great sex life.   But part of the 'big deal' is that aside from the romantic aspect, it can be so many other things too.  Like fun and exhilarating. 

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And that's the thing, let's suppose I'm over-exaggerating. I will almost certainly be tearing up the first time she kisses me. I mean anything really could set me off. The thing is, most women just aren't ok with this. They want a stoic ideal for a man, and I'm sad that I can't give it to them. 

I don't know any woman who wants a stoic man.  That's very old fashioned.   The women I know want a man who can communicate, a man who can express his feelings....a man who has a full range of healthy emotions.   As far as tearing up during a first kiss, you're right that most women wouldn't be OK with it.  But I'm pretty sure the average man wouldn't want a woman who tears up when he kisses her for the first time either.  

Further, you said that the crying isn't an impediment to your life.  But as you say, most women wouldn't be OK with tearing up during a first kiss....so doesn't that make it an impediment?  

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 It's more, I think, the emotionality rather than the crying. But the crying is related to it. Obv I'm not saying crying makes you a woman, but in my case it is related. 

I don't agree that emotionality is a feminine trait.  Both men and women have emotions and that's great if they are expressed in a healthy way.   But honestly, in either gender, getting too emotional  (to the point where we express those emotions in ways which make a partner uncomfortable) is a problem

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Yeah, I'm not sure what femininity is either. But I have had an identification with it since I've been conscious. In some sense, these actions are usually representative of that. In my case, basically, it just so happens to be true. But it's easy to point out stereotypical markers and hard to prove that I actually am what I say. Ultimately, though, if I was coming in here as a masculine man saying "hey guys I am a masculine man I have a question about girls" I likely wouldn't be questioned. 

Actually, we don't get men who start with that, so it would be odd and I'd wonder what was behind such a statement.  Why can't he just identify as male? 

Do you have a question about girls?   Forgive me if I missed it.

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Well, if you want to say I am kind of queer. Then fine. I can identify as a +. But yeah, at the end of the day I am a dude who happens to be feminine. It is kind of subversive, but it's not really the same as being LGBTQI+ as you put it. I am comfortable being a man. It's true that sometimes I hate myself because I am too feminine, but I try to have a more positive attitude about it. In general, my interests are feminine too. I'm not trying to say I have no masculinity, I do. I like masculinity a lot, and I really like certain things about masculinity.

That's cool.  I was just trying to get to the bottom of all this discussion of femininity.

Edited March 8, 2023 by basil67

[FMW]

What are your non-romantic relationships with women like (friends, sisters, etc.)?  Do they react negatively to who you are?  As a woman I've found that my relationships with men friends and relatives tend to have a lot in common with my romantic relationships - meaning the overall vibe I have with men has a commonality across all my relationships.  I say that to get to the point that even if you might find it more difficult than some to meet romantic partners, you may well be overthinking things.  You are who you are - if your friends accept you for who you are then there are very likely women out there that would also accept you as a romantic partner, regardless of whether or not you meet any stereotype of what a man is.  

Any mental health issues or self esteem issues are more likely the stumbling blocks you will have.  They will keep you from accepting yourself and keep you from being comfortable around others, making romantic (or other) connections very difficult.      

[Era of Flies]

59 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Sex IS a big deal - it's why so many want a long term partner with a great sex life.   But part of the 'big deal' is that aside from the romantic aspect, it can be so many other things too.  Like fun and exhilarating. 

I don't know any woman who wants a stoic man.  That's very old fashioned.   The women I know want a man who can communicate, a man who can express his feelings....a man who has a full range of healthy emotions.   As far as tearing up during a first kiss, you're right that most women wouldn't be OK with it.  But I'm pretty sure the average man wouldn't want a woman who tears up when he kisses her for the first time either.  

Further, you said that the crying isn't an impediment to your life.  But as you say, most women wouldn't be OK with tearing up during a first kiss....so doesn't that make it an impediment?  

I don't agree that emotionality is a feminine trait.  Both men and women have emotions and that's great if they are expressed in a healthy way.   But honestly, in either gender, getting too emotional  (to the point where we express those emotions in ways which make a partner uncomfortable) is a problem

Actually, we don't get men who start with that, so it would be odd and I'd wonder what was behind such a statement.  Why can't he just identify as male? 

Do you have a question about girls?   Forgive me if I missed it.

That's cool.  I was just trying to get to the bottom of all this discussion of femininity.

The stoic ideal for men very much relates to the taboo for crying. As men, we are often told not to express our emotions. Of course it's very old-fashioned, but our culture is still very much affected by old-fashioned ideas. I mean, really, what I'm trying to say, is that if I care about a woman I am likely to get emotional about her. From what I understand, women find it pathetic for men to cry. Something like having intercourse, a kiss etc. would be a big deal to me personally. Let's say I'm able to hold it in. What do you want me to do? Close the door in the bathroom and cry alone until I can come out again? Maybe it won't be sex or a kiss, but it will be something. And so she is likely to see me shed a tear or two for her sake. 

It's not very often that I'm overly emotional (I know I have strong emotions but it's not usually a problem). It's just that kissing a girl would be a very exciting thing for me personally. I mean what do you want me to tell you? That I'm completely untouched? I have been yearning for a woman's touch for very very long. I'm completely frozen solid. 

And I do wonder if maybe I'm overexaggerating a bit. Like maybe, I could be completely senseless and do it all without caring. And even to the extent that it would be good for me. Or maybe it wouldn't matter to me in the end. But hell, I am worried about it and I want to know what people think if it were true. Because I do still feel, that it is true. 

[Era of Flies]

24 minutes ago, FMW said:

What are your non-romantic relationships with women like (friends, sisters, etc.)?  Do they react negatively to who you are?  As a woman I've found that my relationships with men friends and relatives tend to have a lot in common with my romantic relationships - meaning the overall vibe I have with men has a commonality across all my relationships.  I say that to get to the point that even if you might find it more difficult than some to meet romantic partners, you may well be overthinking things.  You are who you are - if your friends accept you for who you are then there are very likely women out there that would also accept you as a romantic partner, regardless of whether or not you meet any stereotype of what a man is.  

Any mental health issues or self esteem issues are more likely the stumbling blocks you will have.  They will keep you from accepting yourself and keep you from being comfortable around others, making romantic (or other) connections very difficult.      

Pretty good. I have a great relationship with my sister. Generally my friends are positive. I have never thought about it like this but there must be some truth to it. I just think women want something different from men in a relationship than what they want from a friendship. What are a woman's romantic needs essentially? From my perspective, most women want a taller guy with broad shoulders and a pretty face. Look, I'm not saying looks are everything, but what I am saying is that I don't provide what a woman wants from a man. I likely won't be bigger than her. Not a particularly masculine man. On top of all this, there's my personality which I've described. Most women want you to provide a stoic strength in the relationship. I don't think women want men to be vulnerable in their relationships. So you know, I feel I'm out of options. I can't provide anything for women physically or mentally. I don't have anything a woman really wants from a man. 

Yes, having high self-esteem is good. Loving yourself is good. I understand that, but I'm no master. I really feel like I will never be able to please women sometimes and that they'll never want me because of reasons like what I've said above. I really would like to hope it isn't true. But I don't understand how. 

Like, I dunno. How am I going to find a wife that wouldn't look down on me for crying? A wife that would actually want me physically? It seems like a difficult task. I don't know what to do. 

[basil67]

What is your actual question?  

[NuevoYorko]

Like Mama RuPaul always says:  If you can't love yourself, how you gonna love somebody else?

[Era of Flies]

3 minutes ago, basil67 said:

What is your actual question?  

 

23 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

Like, I dunno. How am I going to find a wife that wouldn't look down on me for crying? A wife that would actually want me physically? It seems like a difficult task. I don't know what to do. 

this is a pretty close approximation from my last response. I would say on some level I'd like to take a step forward because given things currently, it seems unlikely that anyone will want me. However, I don't think I'll ever not be emotional about this. If I'm in love with a woman, it will be an emotional thing for me. And it's likely at some point I cry. I just don't understand how I can provide anything to a woman as a man when I'm like this. It seems like a problem to me that I can't offer much to a woman physically either. So considering both of these things, how should I go about having a relationship with a woman? I'm not gonna lie, my options are slim. Not many women will take me. I haven't found any yet. But it's certainly possible, but there are complications. In a way, I want to ask: "how can a woman want me?" 

[basil67]

At this point, your views on women are peppered with exaggeration and stereotypes.  This  suggests that you don't really understand women at all.  So before you even get to the point of having girlfriend (let alone a wife!), the first step I'd suggest is to drop all your preconceived notions and stuff you've read on the internet and ask questions of women who you trust.   And LISTEN to the answers.

 

[Era of Flies]

24 minutes ago, basil67 said:

At this point, your views on women are peppered with exaggeration and stereotypes.  This  suggests that you don't really understand women at all.  So before you even get to the point of having girlfriend (let alone a wife!), the first step I'd suggest is to drop all your preconceived notions and stuff you've read on the internet and ask questions of women who you trust.   And LISTEN to the answers.

 

I'm not intent on gaining some kind of abstract "understanding" of women. What would such an "understanding" entail? This is a very vague notion. I already know that people be being individuals. At the end of the day, we aren't really understanding one another in any real sense. I'm me. You're you. On some level, we aren't going to understand one another. I'm perfectly comfortable being in a relationship where I don't understand the other person completely, because I never will. Yes, I've used some exaggeration and stereotype to illustrate my points, and perhaps I don't have the greatest idea of women in my head. I know that ultimately, wanting to play house, is not necessarily an indicator of femininity. But again, what should I say to you to prove that I am who I say I am? How can I make a feminine gesture that would be worthy of a real woman, that would be so clearly identifiable to you that you would not question it as "true femininity." I'm not only actively interested in correcting my ideas about women, but continue to do so. Again, it's not like I'm uneducated on the subject of what a woman is. However, I can never hope to understand what it is like to be one, and I'm perfectly ok with that. 

Perhaps, I have some preconceived notions about women. Again, to me, this is a big part of my issue. It's the stoicism thing. Not only do women lose respect for you as a man when you cry, they also stop being attracted to you. If you don't show that you're masculine enough to a woman, she isn't going to want you. Lots of girls act this way, and I'm completely incompatible with them. Women want men to act masculine and be stoic and represent a male ideal. 

Maybe this is just my biased perspective of what women want. I would be glad to have my ideas changed, but I currently believe what I say. It's obvious to me that women dislike when men cry. It's just my experiences I guess. And I dunno, maybe I've had it rough, and maybe there really is a woman that would be ok if I cried over her. But I'm worried about that. 

[basil67]

29 minutes ago, Era of Flies said:

t's the stoicism thing. Not only do women lose respect for you as a man when you cry, they also stop being attracted to you. If you don't show that you're masculine enough to a woman, she isn't going to want you. Lots of girls act this way, and I'm completely incompatible with them. Women want men to act masculine and be stoic and represent a male ideal. 

And I've already told you that my husband and father cry in movies.  My father cried with emotion at my sister's wedding.  Did you read any disrespect in my words?

That said, there's a time and a place for crying.  You might get away with crying over a girlfriend once if you explain "I'm just so happy", but if you do it on a regular basis, they will start to think you're odd.  Just as a guy would if a woman did this frequently.  

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Maybe this is just my biased perspective of what women want. I would be glad to have my ideas changed, but I currently believe what I say. It's obvious to me that women dislike when men cry. It's just my experiences I guess. And I dunno, maybe I've had it rough, and maybe there really is a woman that would be ok if I cried over her. But I'm worried about that. 

Yeah, it's your biased perspective.  And given that you've already ignored my words once, I'll bet that you won't consider my real life experience this time either and will continue to believe what you've read stuff coming from incel sites.   I can't help you if you won't listen.

Edited March 8, 2023 by basil67

[Era of Flies]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

And I've already told you that my husband and father cry in movies.  My father cried with emotion at my sister's wedding.  Did you read any disrespect in my words?

I'm sorry I didn't directly call attention to this part of your post. Of course, I understand that you personally have a good relationship with a man and are comfortable watching him cry. This is simply a different issue entirely from my point of view. It isn't the same to cry tears over a woman. To be genuinely vulnerable and near her. I understand that you have a great relationship with your husband, and this sort of thing would never interfere with your relationship. Ultimately, the kind of women I expect to find (and will find) are ones who still want me to preform an idealized male role. There are women who find disgust in male weakness, and who would immediately drop me if I were to have such an incident with them. I know consciously that there must be plenty of good and decent women out there, but I guess what I'm saying is, don't all women desire this idealized male role? Don't they want me to be a prize-winner? To be big and strong? To dominate them in bed? To be pretty and decently muscular with broad shoulders? What drives heterosexual women if not masculinity? 

And if that's the case, what do I have to offer to women? They don't want me physically. They don't want me emotionally or in a mental way. How can they ever want me as a man? I guess that's a good way of putting it. How can women ever want me as a man? 

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

That said, there's a time and a place for crying.  You might get away with crying over a girlfriend once if you explain "I'm just so happy", but if you do it on a regular basis, they will start to think you're odd.  Just as a guy would if a woman did this frequently.  

Of course, it's embarrassing to cry, especially as a man. It's not like I'm going around sobbing or anything. I don't think it will be a regular and frequent occurrence. But it will happen once or twice to be sure. 

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

]Yeah, it's your biased perspective.  And given that you've already ignored my words once, I'll bet that you won't consider my real life experience this time either and will continue to believe what you've read stuff coming from incel sites.   I can't help you if you won't listen.

I'm sad we can't see eye to eye. I don't frequent incel forums. Just because I'm a virgin doesn't mean I hate women or would associate with what is essentially a hate movement towards women. I'm sorry you feel like I've ignored you. I'm not trying to, and I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond to me and give me advice. I don't fully understand your real life experience as you put it. And also I feel like maybe we are talking about different things. Maybe, on some level, I am completely hopeless about this subject. So I am sorry if I am incorrigible. I want to change, and I want to be a better person. I still feel like I need answers, and, frankly, hope.

[Alpacalia]

Men and women are socially constructed concepts, and there are no 'right' ways to be either.

A long-term ex is in law enforcement. Hyper-masculine job, sure. He cried on occasion. Sometimes because of the nature of his job, and sometimes for other reasons... I found myself spending a lot of time with him, and we were able to share a lot of fun moments together. It was a pleasure to be with him.

Sexual preferences differ widely from person to person, and not all women are looking for hyper-masculine partners. Depending on the woman, she may actually prefer a partner who is more emotionally expressive. Please don't assume you won't find someone who appreciates sensitivity and emotional openness in you because there are plenty of women who value those characteristics.

[Acacia98]

3 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

The stoic ideal for men very much relates to the taboo for crying. As men, we are often told not to express our emotions. Of course it's very old-fashioned, but our culture is still very much affected by old-fashioned ideas. I mean, really, what I'm trying to say, is that if I care about a woman I am likely to get emotional about her. From what I understand, women find it pathetic for men to cry. Something like having intercourse, a kiss etc. would be a big deal to me personally. Let's say I'm able to hold it in. What do you want me to do? Close the door in the bathroom and cry alone until I can come out again? Maybe it won't be sex or a kiss, but it will be something. And so she is likely to see me shed a tear or two for her sake. 

It's not very often that I'm overly emotional (I know I have strong emotions but it's not usually a problem). It's just that kissing a girl would be a very exciting thing for me personally. I mean what do you want me to tell you? That I'm completely untouched? I have been yearning for a woman's touch for very very long. I'm completely frozen solid. 

And I do wonder if maybe I'm overexaggerating a bit. Like maybe, I could be completely senseless and do it all without caring. And even to the extent that it would be good for me. Or maybe it wouldn't matter to me in the end. But hell, I am worried about it and I want to know what people think if it were true. Because I do still feel, that it is true. 

I keep hearing folks say that men don't cry, but in the course of my normal life, I come across men tearing up or crying for various reasons (disappointment, sadness, anger, being overwhelmed), and it is simply normal. When it happens, I don't see people frowning or acting shocked about it. And I am talking about men from various cultures, including traditionally "stoic" cultures. So, despite the idea generally floating around that men don't cry, crying is normal, and men do cry.

If it weren't normal for men to cry, they wouldn't have tear ducts in the first place. I find the idea that men should not cry as silly as the idea that men should not smile. So I think that any individual or culture that puts that forward as an ideal way to be doesn't understand basic human biology and psychology or has some serious issues.

It is normal for almost everybody to cry. However, people don't always cry in the same way for the same reasons. So if you find that you keep bursting into tears on a regular basis, even on occasions where tears seem out of place, whether you are male or female, it may be an indication of something at the psychological level: You may be grieving a deep loss, you may have a mood disorder, you may be living in an abusive situation, you may have been brought up in an emotionally unhealthy manner, etc. If this is the case, then it would be a good idea to get help from a qualified professional.

To focus on another aspect of your post: Not all women find it pathetic for men to cry. And not all women are looking for so-called stoic men. So, when dating, it's in your best interest to focus on women who respond to you with empathy rather than disgust. You're probably best off not having sex with any random woman if you feel emotionally vulnerable. I imagine you'd be best off with a woman who accepts you as you are and respects you. That way, if indeed you burst into tears when you make love, she is likely to view it as a quirk on your part and to accept it without harsh judgment.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Acacia98

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

 Many people told me I likely needed therapy.

 I did not want to grow up to be like my father. Aggressive, shouting my mother down.

Sorry this is happening. Listen to your friends.

Start by seeing a physician for an evaluation of your physical and mental health. Get some tests done. Discuss the uncontrollable crying.

Ask for a referral to a qualified therapist for ongoing support. There seems to be a lot going on that a therapist could help you with.

[IrinaM]

3 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

Of course, it's embarrassing to cry, especially as a man. It's not like I'm going around sobbing or anything. I don't think it will be a regular and frequent occurrence. But it will happen once or twice to be sure. 

 

11 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

A short and delicate but sort of homely man that cries easily, often. What could I possibly have to offer a woman?

 

9 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

I will almost certainly be tearing up the first time she kisses me. I mean anything really could set me off.

Can you please clarify how often it is that you cry? And how often you expect you would cry in front of a wife or girlfriend?

If you have an issue with crying frequently and inappropriately, it likely has already effected your professional life. Are you able to control yourself at work?

It's so odd that you describe your father as someone who couldn't control his anger, and you seem to think he should have. Learning to control your emotions is important.  If you feel your frequent bouts of crying will make you unappealing to most women, see a therapist and learn to control your emotions, especially inappropriate emotions. If you really are as soft and vulnerable as you paint yourself to be, of course you will be unappealing to most women. Just like a man who flies into a rage for no good reason is also unappealing.

I'm also confused as to your question. You basically describe yourself as being low-value to women, and then ask what woman would want such a low-value man. You also mentioned "incel forums," not sure why. The way you describe women seems antagonistic and hostile, which also might be why you aren't successful with women.

[stillafool]

9 hours ago, Era of Flies said:

Quote

. This is simply a different issue entirely from my point of view. It isn't the same to cry tears over a woman. To be genuinely vulnerable and near her.

Men cry over women all the time.  I've had boyfriends cry over me, to me and cry during sex.  I was flattered, not turned off.  My ex husband would cry during sentimental movies and I didn't bat an eye.

Quote

Ultimately, the kind of women I expect to find (and will find) are ones who still want me to preform an idealized male role. There are women who find disgust in male weakness, and who would immediately drop me if I were to have such an incident with them.

Why do you expect to get involved with women like you describe above?  I would think you'd want to stay clear from women like you describe above or do you like very dominant women?  Just because you cry doesn't mean you can't perform the male role in the relationship.

 

Quote

And if that's the case, what do I have to offer to women? Love, companionship, emotional and financial support, children and so much more.

They don't want me physically. Why do you say this?  Are you physically unattractive, if so work on that.

They don't want me emotionally or in a mental way.  How do you know this if you've never tried?

How can they ever want me as a man? There is someone for everyone.

 

 

 What will turn any woman off is a defeatist attitude.  Excuse me if you've already answered this question in this thread but have you thought about seeking therapy?

[Lotsgoingon]

OP says he's been to therapy before but sees no hope for it now: I don't think therapy is going to fix how emotional I am, and how easily I can become emotional. 

Therapy requires some surrender: some willingness to accept that our framework for solving a life problem might be missing something. OP, however, is supremely confident that his way of seeing the world is accurate. That viewpoint is like a close friend at this point: he doesn't want to give it up.

Which is odd because I can't imagine any sane or sharp therapist would identify fixing how emotional he is as a worthy goal of therapy.

On the other hand, guiding someone to recognize the way he is stigmatizing himself for having strong emotions and guiding him to replace that assumption (by systematically testing it in the world) would be a great therapeutic project.

[Alpacalia]

I completely agree. Having had negative experiences in the past or being reluctant to challenge your assumptions and beliefs may make you skeptical or resistant to therapy.

Therapy isn't about fixing or changing who you are as a person. Life's challenges require insight and coping skills, not necessarily a set of answers.

Likewise, you need to be open to the process and cooperative with the right therapist.