Conflict Resolution with 3rd Parties - My logic vs. her emotion

[BMI03]

I need some help with core personality differences. My wife and I fundamentally disagree on how to handle situations that see us up against an opposition of any type. I will try to share both her and my perspective, but granted this is from my side, so at best is based on an imperfect understanding of what she has explained when we discuss this topic, but I likely will not do it complete justice. My goal is to hear from others with similar perspectives as her to help me understand her better, and perhaps find a way we meet in the middle.

My approach to confrontation: My objective in any engagement or negotiation is goal oriented. If I want to achieve something, and a third party sits between me and that goal, I approach the interaction unemotionally, logically, almost like a strategic chess match. I am not terribly bothered by anything that could be interpreted as demeaning from the other party, and use each interaction as a means to better the odds of achieving my goal. Ego doesn't come into it, and I will eat some s**t if I have to in order to advance my position. I avoiding anything that adds risk to the outcome I want, even if the risk is an unknown. For example, I will smile and nod to a customer service representative giving me clearly wrong information in a condescending way, if I think continuing to engage with them will allow me to convince them of what I want to achieve. Even when unsure, I will sooner avoid a confrontation and regroup as opposed to outright defense or attack based on the premise that I don't know what kind of risk that could manifest at a later date. To her, this is demeaning. 

My wife's criticism of my approach to conflict is that when people act a certain way, they are being offensive, or insulting my intelligence, and it bothers her a lot to see me appear to not defend myself. She often feels compelled to jump in in such cases, to my detriment. To her, she's defending me, and to me she's flipping over the chess board when I was happy to continue to engage in the long game to reach my goals.

My wife's approach to conflict: Not to perpetuate stereotypes, but she would call herself a fiery Latina. Argue and battle, and achieve the goal through submission, otherwise go scorched earth to punish in the event your opposition beings offensive or degrading. She will tell people bluntly why they are wrong, and go hard on people. It's an 'all in' approach whereby sometimes it comes out on top, admittingly when my approach my not have gotten any results. But other times it turns into a bitter back and forth where the original goal is deprioritized in exchange for being sure she is heard and gets her say in. We have discussed this because my take on her approach is that she only worsens her chances of achieving her goal, and risks not just shooting herself in the foot, but our family at times as well. She acknowledges this and has said it's not that she blindly puts her objective at risk (which is what I thought she was unknowingly doing), but rather in her mind there is a reprioritization where the original objective is no longer as important to her as making sure she says what she wants to say about the treatment. To me, she's trying to deliver punishment to people who don't care, and it only hurts us in the end.

One common place this manifests itself is in interactions with my ex wife, specifically pertaining to my daughter. My daughter and wife get along awesome, and love spending time together. This week I had a job change. A change that we only knew in part may happen, but confirmed a couple of days ago. It will mean two weeks off between jobs, and so I asked my ex wife if I could take daughter for that time. Knowing we are within the 30 day window we agreed to in our separation agreement for requests of this nature, the ask was met with what I saw as a reasonable, and predictable response...reminding me that communicating these asks with 30 days notice even if only potential will help make them happen, and agreement for my daughter to spend one of the two weeks with us, but that my ex had taken days off for the second week but will she would see if she can make some changes. Knowing my ex, there were probably no plans the second week, but that's her way of making her point. A point in my opinion is a fair one to make. 

My approach to respond would be to humbly acknowledge her comment on the 30 day request for asks of this nature, apologize that this one came with little notice, provide explanation of why, and graciously thank her for the one week she can adjust schedule and tell her no need to try to adjust her plans for the second week. Knowing she likely has no plans I expect she will likely say something fell through anyway and give me the second week as well. This is the logical unemotional chess match approach I naturally take.

My wife's text response to me when I shared my ex wife's response was [profanity] followed by something related to how grateful my ex should be that her ex husband wants to be so involved with his daughter vs. some of the deadbeat dads that she saw when she grew up (her own father included). Her desired approach is to shoot back and cancel it all then, and that we will make other plans at a later time. She wants to put the original goal of getting my daughter for two weeks on the shelf in order to push back on my ex wife.

I struggle to understand her thinking. I am not saying there is no value to it. I have found a compromise of flavoring my communications with my ex with more assertive positions that I would normally been comfortable with, with good results. So I know there is value in her approach as well. But sometimes I struggle to understand her thinking, and how she thinks firing back like this can be a good idea. Who is she punishing? My ex? What does my ex care if I say "ok, no visit at all!". The only people that I feel are punished are ourselves. 

The longer term implication of this is that it puts both of us in a mood. My wife likely looks at me with frustration and disapproving eyes. I look at her with frustration and bewilderment, in addition to discomfort over the tension in our own relationship. Any form of intimacy is erased for several days, and atmosphere in the home gets distant. We move past it over time but we never really resolve it because I believe this is a core element of who we are. Her making up for a mother (passed on) who didn't speak up for herself enough, and my being risk adverse such that I will not engage in calling someone else unless the facts are a 100% open/shut case. She's listened to some podcasts on harnessing emotion, but I don't think it's gotten her anywhere.

Anyone out there like my wife who can help me understand her a bit more? How do we find a middle. Thanks in advance.

Edited July 8, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language, formatting

[vla1120]

23 minutes ago, BMI03 said:

Anyone out there like my wife who can help me understand her a bit more? How do we find a middle. Thanks in advance.

Since the only example you provided is the example of her response to your ex-wife's reasonable compromise to your request, I'll address that one. 

Your wife should have no opinion about your ex-wife's response. Having an extreme response, like the idea of shelving your daughter's visit for one of those two weeks, hurts no one but you and your daughter. Your wife is being unreasonable and vindictive in a situation that could place a wedge between you and your daughter, and compromise your co-parenting agreement with your daughter. 

In my opinion, you don't need to find a middle in this instance (and anything else to do with your daughter and co-parenting with your ex-wife.) Your wife needs to step back and let YOU handle that situation.

As far as how she may handle other situations, I'm of the mindset that, in any situation (in a retail store, a restaurant, when I take my car in for service, etc.), I treat other human beings with patience and respect. Even if I am met with disrespect, I'm not going to make a spectacle of myself by yelling at them and/or belittling them. If this is how your wife behaves, then I would say perhaps she needs an anger management class?

 

[BMI03]

2 minutes ago, vla1120 said:

Since the only example you provided is the example of her response to your ex-wife's reasonable compromise to your request, I'll address that one. 

Your wife should have no opinion about your ex-wife's response. Having an extreme response, like the idea of shelving your daughter's visit for one of those two weeks, hurts no one but you and your daughter. Your wife is being unreasonable and vindictive in a situation that could place a wedge between you and your daughter, and compromise your co-parenting agreement with your daughter. 

In my opinion, you don't need to find a middle in this instance (and anything else to do with your daughter and co-parenting with your ex-wife.) Your wife needs to step back and let YOU handle that situation.

As far as how she may handle other situations, I'm of the mindset that, in any situation (in a retail store, a restaurant, when I take my car in for service, etc.), I treat other human beings with patience and respect. Even if I am met with disrespect, I'm not going to make a spectacle of myself by yelling at them and/or belittling them. If this is how your wife behaves, then I would say perhaps she needs an anger management class?

 

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

In regards to the time with my daughter, I hear what you are saying, but I don't think I agree 100%. My wife is an amazing step-mother to my daughter, and has been more thoughtful than I in how she formed her relationship with her. Not to get too deep in exemplifying that, but I feel that both her, as well as my ex-wife's husband, have a role to play. How we work things out with our daughter has an impact on how we structure the rules for our son, and my ex's step family, and so there needs to be a collaboration of sorts. Equal vote? No. But there is value in being collaborative to ensure consideration of parenting consistencies across both households. And in that regards I do believe that all four of us do a generally good job of that, this problem not withstanding.

Regarding other areas not related to my daughter/ex, yes, I mirror your approach in always taking the high road. Not necessarily just for moral reasons, but because I don't see value in burnt bridges. 

Our home builder has been dragging feet on some warranty items. After an admittingly frustrating time of replacing a door for the third time, my wife went off on them over the phone. The situation was completely frustrating, but my wife was equally condescending and demeaning on the phone call escalation. Now the builder sent us a $300 cheque to deal with it on our own, and will not communicate with us any longer unless through a lawyer. My wife is happy she said her piece to put them in their place. And not to say that it wasn't deserved after a third mess up on the same item, but for me I would have preferred to politely send them back to the shop again and again until they got it right, or I negotiated them outsourcing the job to someone else without my having to trouble over starting from scratch.

Right now I feel at uncomfortable odds with our home building company, my son's day care, my ex wife, and I am fearful that with my son starting school in Sept, it will soon be the same there. We have discussed anger management classes, and she has taken some counselling sessions more related to career objectives, but I don't think she sees her approach as wrong or something to fix. She would equally say my approach is detrimental and that conflict avoidance impacts us as well. That's the fork in the road that I don't think we can agree on.

[Wiseman2]

Why not handle your business with whatever strategy works best for you and do not involve her this much in interactions regarding your co-parenting. That is not her call, so don't upset/involve her. Only focus on co-parenting and do not burden her with your woes about your ex. She is who she is she is, not inferior or 'emotional' . Your personalities and temperaments are just different.

Edited July 8, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[BMI03]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why not handle your business with whatever strategy works best for you and do not involve her this much in interactions regarding your co-parenting. That is not her call, so don't upset/involve her. Only focus on co-parenting and do not burden her with your woes about your ex. She is who she is she is, not inferior or 'emotional' . Your personalities and temperaments are just different.

Oh I agree, nothing inferior about it. I hope I was clear in expressing that I see value in her approach and it's served me will in some cases. And my approach comes with it's problems as well. I don't want to imply I view it as wrong. However, I do struggle to understand it logically. This is my continual attempt to do so.

 

And not to go too far into a tangent here but in regards to her involvement in this particular example, I mentioned the same to the last responder...I don't intend for her to be an outside uninvolved element of my daughter's life. And she would not accept that either. There are parenting decisions that my ex and I make co-parenting that reverberate into expectations set with other children, and so as such like it or not, the two step parents are impacted by those decisions, and have voiced a desire to be involved. I respect my ex wife's partner (maybe even more than my ex wife...I feel lucky about who she chose, for my daughter's sake) and I want to be respectful of the integrated nature of our two families. Same goes for my wife...she brings great value to my daughter and does not want to be on the sidelines, and I agree.

[vla1120]

5 hours ago, BMI03 said:

My wife is an amazing step-mother to my daughter, and has been more thoughtful than I in how she formed her relationship with her. Not to get too deep in exemplifying that, but I feel that both her, as well as my ex-wife's husband, have a role to play. How we work things out with our daughter has an impact on how we structure the rules for our son, and my ex's step family, and so there needs to be a collaboration of sorts. Equal vote? No. But there is value in being collaborative to ensure consideration of parenting consistencies across both households. And in that regards I do believe that all four of us do a generally good job of that, this problem not withstanding.

I agree with this mindset when you are dealing with partners/step parents who don't resort to saying things [profanity]. When a partner/step parent brings that toxicity to the table, I believe it is wise to isolate them from the decision making. If she wants to play a part in the successful co-parenting, then she needs to curtail her poor attitude. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[basil67]

What's going on with your son's daycare?  Frankly, if she can't be trusted to represent your son in a civil manner, she should lose that privilege.  And I use the word 'privilege' deliberately.  As she is not his bio mother, representing your son's needs is a privilege rather than a right.

 I highly recommend getting some boundaries in place before your son starts school.  Otherwise, she's going to alienate each teacher he has - he will become the kid with "that" stepmom.  

[basil67]

Further to my comment above, in your shoes my conversation with her would be like "I love that you're in my son's life and you're a terrific step mother to him.  However, I need our family to have good relationships with those who are involved in my son's life.  I expect you to behave in a civil manner with all those you interact with, even when you disagree" 

Frankly, this is not an unreasonable request and if she refuses or argues the point, tell her that from this point onwards, she is to refer any concerns she has to you and you will deal with them.

[BaileyB]

9 hours ago, BMI03 said:

How we work things out with our daughter has an impact on how we structure the rules for our son, and my ex's step family, and so there needs to be a collaboration of sorts. Equal vote?

Collaboration, sure. You can ask her opinion and she can give you her vote. But after that, she needs to respect the fact that it’s your daughter, you are coparenting with your ex-wife, and you need to maintain a good relationship with both women. It is your relationship with them, not hers.

For context, I’m in a similar relationship and I deal with this kind of situation all the time. My partner is coparenting with his ex, he asks for advice and I offer my opinion sometimes but he deals with his ex-wife and his child. He would have handled the situation in very much the same way that you did - I would not have yelled or tried to bully/guilt anyone into making a different decision. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

10 hours ago, BMI03 said:

My wife's approach to conflict: Not to perpetuate stereotypes, but she would call herself a fiery Latina. Argue and battle, and achieve the goal through submission, otherwise go scorched earth to punish in the event your opposition beings offensive or degrading. She will tell people bluntly why they are wrong, and go hard on people.

One could call it fiery Latina, or one could say perhaps that she lacks self control, is rather entitled, and shows a lack of respect for other people.

In a way, you are a good partner for her because she would not do well with someone of a similar personality. But, how’s this working for you/in your marriage? I remember your previous posts, there have been other conflicts in the past. I would find this totally exhausting and really frustrating - to live with this kind of conflict all the time. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by BaileyB

[ExpatInItaly]

You speak about all of this in a strangely-detached way, OP. A lot of passive voice and odd wording. 

The sense I get is that you have difficulty being more directly honest about how much this upsets you and frustrates you. So, you try to neutralize it but that's not really getting you anywhere. Your wife is not just being a "fiery Latina." She's being disrespectful and unreasonable, full-stop. And it's going to hurt your daughter and her relationship with your wife. 

The way you speak about this is like you're the UN trying to negotiate a peace accord. A healthy marriage doesn't generally require this much strategizing and tip-toeing. 

 

[BMI03]

On 7/8/2022 at 7:25 PM, basil67 said:

What's going on with your son's daycare?  Frankly, if she can't be trusted to represent your son in a civil manner, she should lose that privilege.  And I use the word 'privilege' deliberately.  As she is not his bio mother, representing your son's needs is a privilege rather than a right.

 I highly recommend getting some boundaries in place before your son starts school.  Otherwise, she's going to alienate each teacher he has - he will become the kid with "that" stepmom.  

Sorry, I think you blended the examples. I gave an example of my daughter (her step-daughter initially) as items that come up with my ex wife certainly make up a sizable group of the times she takes this position. In providing further examples to illustrate it isn't just about that particular relationship I mentioned my son's day care. My son is her biological son. Daughter with ex, son with current wife.

Regarding the day care, there have been several issues. I work from home. She works on the other side of day care. So she does drop offs, though I still run out to do it about 25% of the time because she's either going in early, or running late from work at days end. She has shown up 2, 5, 10 min later than they are open on several occasions. They have had enough of it and called her out on it. They have also asked us to let them know if we are bringing our son in after 10am because sometimes she goes into work late and drops him off after they have settled their staffing for the day. She has taken offense to needing to email them to secure service for something she has paid for, and has escalated to their national leadership because she didn't like being called out for the late pick ups. I am with her on the company can handle concerns through email vs. in front of our son and staff, but I also struggle to support her position because at the end of the day I actually feel like she's the one in the wrong. I've offered to handle more drop offs and pick ups but she gets pissed at me for seemingly trying to back down and avoid conflict when she wants to fight with them. So, she purposefully brings our son after 10, and shows up at 6:05pm to teach them a lesson I guess? I have a hard time backing it.

I jus struggle to see the emotional value of 'winning' in these disputes when the cost is risk of (in this example) my son getting kicked out of day care and us having to find other avenues.

This isn't about me giving examples to hear that I am right or wrong. I am really giving them because I want to hear from someone who understands her mentality better so I can receive some coaching on how to empathies better with her and help her balance the pros and cons in the moment of picking the fights she gets us as a family into.

 

[BMI03]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:35 PM, BaileyB said:

Collaboration, sure. You can ask her opinion and she can give you her vote. But after that, she needs to respect the fact that it’s your daughter, you are coparenting with your ex-wife, and you need to maintain a good relationship with both women. It is your relationship with them, not hers.

For context, I’m in a similar relationship and I deal with this kind of situation all the time. My partner is coparenting with his ex, he asks for advice and I offer my opinion sometimes but he deals with his ex-wife and his child. He would have handled the situation in very much the same way that you did - I would not have yelled or tried to bully/guilt anyone into making a different decision. 

I think you hit why the examples related to my ex and daughter are the most difficult. Her mentality (on all topics) is to be involved with giving opinions you should follow, or not involved at all. A fried asks medical advice...she gives it. If she hears the friend didn't take the advice, or sought additional advice supplemental to that, they don't talk for weeks and she refuses to give advice again. It's like she feels that sharing such advice obligates the individual to take that direction, otherwise it's a personal offense to her and she retracts to refusing to be involved at all.

Case with my daughter last week. Now, she loves my daughter and always has. I had time off and suggested a daddy/daughter day. My wife got excited and agreed. She has great ideas. She suggested I make an invitation card, get dressed up, make it dinner and activity. My daughter previously suggested lunch as opposed to dinner, so all good. My wife researched fancy places and suggested a nice fancy place. Awesome. Taking my daughter there, she was so excited to hang out one on one. With my son, there is a lot of necessary tag along and I don't get enough 1:1 time with either of them. Anyhow, she asked if we could go to a restaurant she knows...middle level...common sit-down franchise style. One she knows. 

First, my wife texted to ask how it's going, and I told her my daughter suggested another place. My wife's answer: "She goes there all the time with ex/ex's husband...this is about making new memories with her.". I also realized looking back now, that I share things with her like that because I am testing for what is going to trigger her so I don't pay the price later. It's not good. 

So I take my daughter to the fancy restaurant. She is good with it, but once we sit down I see her eyes well up a bit with some held back tears. I feel back because she's uncomfortable in such a fancy place. Wife asks how it's going...I tell her I may leave. Wife goes into angry mode...tells me if I leave there, to take her straight home, and that the invitation to come out wasn't to that other restaurant. I tell her to "Stop". And she asks why I even involved her in the first place. 

We eat, and I am pissed. It's an example of her being all in owning something, or all out disconnected. Can't give suggestions and let me take ownership. 

This was the start of a string of events that led to our biggest fight yet last night, but I will share that in it's own post.

Thanks for the input.

[BMI03]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:43 PM, BaileyB said:

One could call it fiery Latina, or one could say perhaps that she lacks self control, is rather entitled, and shows a lack of respect for other people.

In a way, you are a good partner for her because she would not do well with someone of a similar personality. But, how’s this working for you/in your marriage? I remember your previous posts, there have been other conflicts in the past. I would find this totally exhausting and really frustrating - to live with this kind of conflict all the time. 

Bang on. She handles life normally 99% of the time, but every now and then she goes into what I can only rationalize as childish behavior that serves to harm no one that really gives a heck aside from herself and her family.

That other 99% of the time, we complement each other. I know I am too analytic and data-driven. I realized looking back at my headline of this post that some may interpret that "...logic vs. emotion..." to mean I am saying my logic is superior to silly emotion, but that's not what I meant...what I meant was that as far in one direction as she is emotionally at times, I am likely equally too far in the other logical end. So that other 99% of the time we balance each other nicely and fall in the middle. If left to my own devices I would rarely take steps forward of any even marginal risk. I enjoy more in life because of our meeting in the middle on things like car and home purchases. But this other 1% is frustrating. More to come in my next post about it getting heated last night.

Beyond that, I love her. And I can put up with a lot. So I want to make efforts to understand her. After last night I think that goes beyond us though and will likely require some marriage counseling. 

Thanks again.

[BMI03]

On 7/9/2022 at 3:06 AM, ExpatInItaly said:

You speak about all of this in a strangely-detached way, OP. A lot of passive voice and odd wording. 

The sense I get is that you have difficulty being more directly honest about how much this upsets you and frustrates you. So, you try to neutralize it but that's not really getting you anywhere. Your wife is not just being a "fiery Latina." She's being disrespectful and unreasonable, full-stop. And it's going to hurt your daughter and her relationship with your wife. 

The way you speak about this is like you're the UN trying to negotiate a peace accord. A healthy marriage doesn't generally require this much strategizing and tip-toeing. 

 

Great observation! Thank you!

You are stop on. To the point in my last post, I don't want to say I'm an unemotional person, but I am very much in that analytical quadrant of personality and struggle to make sense of some of this. 

And you are right. I overthink conversations. I naturally build a spiderweb of decisions trees in my head with each sentence that comes out of my mouth to predict how the other will respond so I have my next few steps or comments charted out. It's exhausting. Add to that the risk-adverse element and you are right...it makes it hard for me to be directly honest about this. I think it's because in that decision-tree chess match approach to discussing a problem, her reaction is an unknown to me, and that is scary to my personality type. It brings the risk/reward analysis of spilling it all out difficult because I don't know if the outcome is worth the risk of spilling it harshly. And because I can put up with a lot (not suggesting that as a positive...I stayed 10 years in a relationship I didn't want to be in) I say my bit and move on.

The light bulb point there however is how this will impact my daughter's relationship with her. Others in her family may not be as patient over the years, and I don't want to see those relationships struggle.

Anyhow, it did come up in a heated exchange last night so will get to that. Was going to make a separate post, but perhaps I just continue on here...

[BMI03]

First, thank you to those who have taken the time to read. I understand I likely include more detail that critical to the story, or my needs for advice. This is a bit of an exercise to explore my own feelings when I write it down, so thank you for your time. It is appreciated.

My wife suggested there were some things we needed to talk about last night and I told her I agreed. There were three situations this past week.

Situation 1): Son Day Care (morning of daddy/daughter day): Prior to the events I outlines in the last posts above, that morning my wife asked Brooklyn which car she would like her to leave at the house for me to take her out in. We have a nice car, and a dealership loner minivan at the moment that the kids love. My wife offered to leave the nice car she drives the day prior but my daughter said she wanted to take the mini-van (both kids love it!). That morning, even though we had already settled that, my wife asks my daughter again, in front of my son. My son triggers that he is not going where my daughter is going and has an out-of-character meltdown. My wife takes him with her for day care drop off, where he continues to cry and kick the air and meltdown. 

My wife calls me and asks me to check the online cameras to see how he's doing. We have a new laptop and neither of us remember the password to the day care cameras. She is flustered and snappy and says she needs to get to work and is late. I tell her I got it, and I will take care of it. I call the day care, no answer. Wife asks if she should go back for him and I tell her 'No, I got it'. I call day care several more times over 10 min, leave a message, send an email that I am checking in on Alex and will continue to call until I hear back. Wife texts asking what my plan is. I tell her I called and emailed, I am going to see if they answer the email and if I don't hear back I will text a worker we know there, and if no answer will go get him. She says she's almost back to day care now. Her anger with me is that she never heard back from me that I didn't get an answer to the phone call I made, and didn't share what my plan was. My counter anger was that she was flustered about needing to go to work and I told her I would handle it...if she's expecting a minute by minute play by play of how I am handling it, she isn't in fact letting me handle it...she's just using me as arms and legs and not letting go. I find it controlling. Her counter-counter-point, is that I can't understand how a mother's brain goes off when she knows her kid is in that mode. In the end, when she got back, our son was fine. 

Situation 2): Daddy/Daughter Day: Hours later that same daddy/daughter day were the events I outlines in my earlier post.

Situation 3): Morning Drive to Camp: The climax was driven mostly from an occurrence yesterday morning where I got up to drive my daughter (who was at our house) to a daily summer camp. Daughter was with us all last week, going to camp Monday morning and ex wife will pick her up until Thursday when she will come back to our place. 

My son (4) adores my daughter (8) and is often bummed out when she leaves. My daughter likes the drive time 1:1 she gets with me, when she gets it, but my son often jumps out of bed to come also because he misses her and wants to see her off. My wife wants my son to go as well because he manages the missing her more if he can see her off. 

This particular morning my daughter and I got up and started getting ready. My son and wife were asleep in the same bed. My wife and I had had a conversation about our son being over tired lately because he plays hard when my daughter is around and we were trying to get him more sleep. So I made the call to not wake him. About 10 minutes before leaving he runs out and wants to go. He's up so I am ok with it, but when my wife says to take him in his onesie PJs I say he needs clothes because we need to walk into a public building to register and all that. My wife looks frustrated and gets out of bed to put his clothes on him. He gets frustrated because he wants to wear his PJs and has a meltdown. While I am getting dressed, my daughter, observing the meltdown makes a comments of "maybe he shouldn't go if he is misbehaving.".

My daughter is young, but smart. Her brain works like mine in that she is already thinking a few steps ahead, but my wife is aware of that and picks up on it earlier than I do. My wife didn't like that comment from my daughter because she sees it as manipulative because she believes my daughter is trying to secure her 1:1 time with me at the cost of her brother. So, my wife, switches over from trying to console my son to telling him "Your sister doesn't want you to go! Your dad doesn't want you to go!", to which I interjected to say "That's not true! Alex, you are coming with us." and asked my wife what on earth she was doing telling our son that. My wife gets attacky when stressed or overwhelmed, and I didn't know if that was an attack at my son because she was upset with him crying...or an attack at me by attacking him...I have yet to understand it.

I took both kids and left. Got home, and wife and son stayed upstairs all day while I worked.

In the evening after son was asleep we let it fly. 

Situation 1) I tell her the meltdown was avoidable. She tells me she's on egg shells with my daughter around trying to be nice when she sees her try to be manipulative, but still gets it wrong. She told me about being upset I didn't report back sooner on son's day care. I told her she is not trusting me to take things. She tells me it's because I don't do things. I tell her it's because I don't do them her way, and she's controlling

Situation 2) She tells me she doesn't know why she involves herself. I tell her she involved herself and while I appreciate it, she needs to be able to find a middle ground of giving suggestions but not being insulted when that changes. She says I get run over by my daughter and that I am too nice and that I treat my ex well while saying this crap to her. I tell her it's because I am sharing anger points here, but I don't do that with my ex any more than I do it at work or in public because those are conversations that I am trying to achieving something from someone with...I am being real with her.

Situation 3) She tells me that I should have woke our son up and she shouldn't have to ask. I tell her we talked about him getting more rest so I made a call. She tells me that she's upset at what my daughter said. I tell her that I am furious over what she said to my son and I am perplexed by who she was attempting to hurt with those comments. She tells me she was pissed and that I know how much she hates mornings and hated starting her day with his tantrum because I wanted him to be dressed going. I tell her that I was pissed because it all seemed fine until I suggested he needed clothes and then she was upset because she had to get out of bed...and that no adult loves mornings...but we do it because we are adults. She smashes glass on the ground, missing ground and hitting me in the ankle, and takes great offense that I am implying she is lazy in the mornings. I tell her that I have told her numerous times she needs to take anger management classes.

More of the same is said, with me telling her to keep her voice down so as not to wake our son. We go our separate ways for the night. I text her before sleeping to tell her that I was sorry, and that anger slipped into our conversation more than I wanted it to, but that I think it was good that we aired some things that were obviously boiling over individually over the last while. She doesn't answer.

Silence this morning. I bring her a coffee. I make son breakfast, and she gets him ready. I say drive safe. No goodbyes.

She texts this morning an hour ago not to be sorry...that my mouth just said what I really think. She indicates that she thought the deal was that I get our son ready in the mornings and she drops him off, but seems that has been taken as laziness and point taken.

She reminds me she grew up with a single mom and doesn't need a man in her life. She agrees she is not the best in the mornings, and that right now she doesn't like me. She reminds me that we talked about anger management classes, but also that I would go so I learn how to express my anger as well (having the opposite problem of not being vocal enough basically). 

She tells me she had hoped last night was going to be solutioning, and that she misses being a team and having a connection. She feels like she is being treated unjustly, and that my ex gets the reward for stepping on top of me, while she scrambles to keep her head above water to keep our household going and I DO find my voice with her (implying the negativity of the night prior). She said it feels unfair that our son learns bad habits from my daughter (she said the reason he wanted to wear his PJs is because my daughter likes wearing PJs all day if allowed. We both have allowed it at times, perhaps me more than her). 

She says her head and heart are not in a good place right now, and that she could tell me let's go for counseling but honestly doesn't want to waste her energy to solve an issue when I am so lousy at other relationships. She said I am my best when I am an ex, and why should she make an effort. Asks me to think about it.

So that's where I am right now.

Advice appreciated.

Thanks.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by BMI03

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, BMI03 said:

I still run out to do it about 25% of the time because she's either going in early, or running late from work at days end.

Why not handle 100% of the pickup/drop off? That way if she's running late, working outside the home with variable hours, it's not an issue. You're working from home, so it's unclear why you can't take on more responsibilities.

[BMI03]

19 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Why not handle 100% of the pickup/drop off? That way if she's running late, working outside the home with variable hours, it's not an issue. You're working from home, so it's unclear why you can't take on more responsibilities.

I do consulting work with a heavy expectation of being online and available from day start to day end. I can work the drop offs and pick ups in, but with a need to communicate my unavailability to multiple people, which over time can be detrimental career wise. So it's a balance. It's 30 min in, 30 min back, plus the drop off time, so can be 1.5 hours out of the work day in the morning, and again in the afternoon. 

My wife's has flexibility in her work where her boss isn't worked up as to whether she comes in late or leaves early some days, and her commute is in the direction of my son's day care plus an additional 20 minutes.

So when I go, it takes more logistical risk with work, and an extra hour's worth of gas in a direction she is already going. My work until this point started late and ended late so I would do more of the drop offs when she was starting early.

Appreciate the question. I think they are a symptom of the main issues though, less the cause. But I am not sure I know anymore to be honest.

Edited July 26, 2022 by BMI03

[BMI03]

Well, since my last update, we took a bit of 'us' time. We had an overnight free of the kids and enjoyed some time together. It was helpful, and I am glad we did it.

The morning after the day we returned, both of us working from home and her on calls, I ran up to gather my daughter to drive to my ex's place, and asked my son to come with us. He didn't want to, and firmly wanted to stay with my parents (visiting and staying with us for a couple of weeks). So I got my daughter set up and out the door, to find a sarcastic text that I rolled out that I had not taken my son again. I responded that I had asked him and he didn't want to go, and no further response. 

By the time I got home I was steamed. Steamed that she jumped to a default status of being upset with me. Steamed that there wasn't so much as an apology and 'thanks for hearing me on this.' when I got back. She was (in my opinion) already angry from what she thought happened without validating it so now it because a case of being mad at me that I didn't communicate to her that our son said he didn't want to go. And, that when she heard him say 'bye' to us and she went upstairs to check on him and he followed her back into the office, she decided to be upset at my parents for not handling him when they said they would. I told her that communication of Alex not wanting to go would be great, yes, but in my haste to get out the door between work meetings the penalty for not reporting back within 5 minutes, for each detail I can try and guess is going to potentially set her off, can't be taking heat from her. I told her if she's concerned over something she needs to ask and hear an answer before she decides to get mad at me. I took our son back to my parents despite her saying it was ok that he stayed in the office and told her it was because I don't want to give her ammunition to be upset at everyone. This bothered her, but I believe it to be true. I think when she's angry, she looks for additional reasons as fuel to be more and more upset and more and more people. She didn't like that.

That brought her back to saying that she can't be held responsible for assuming I forgot since she feels like she's been asking me to take him for a year. I told her we are not starting from the same place because I feel like the situation is that I didn't hear her once...that up until this point I have taken him 80% of the time, and the point of agreement we didn't have previously after discussing it last week was that when he is sleeping we will at least still ask him if he wants to go. I previously didn't have personal thoughts that he HAD to come with us (or get the option), but I have agreed to that now.

So anyway, we are both still sour at one another 24 hours later. She is telling me she doesn't want to go numb and disconnect, and we need to communicate. Meanwhile I am in the same boat, feeling demotivated because if we talk about an issue that bothered her, and in my opinion I act on it per our discussion, and still take a beating, then what is the point. I can't make someone like that happy, and will drive myself miserable trying to meet an expectation I can't meet.

So at this point, I feel like our starting points are too far separated and we need some professional help to better hear each other.

Anyway, thanks all for your ears.

 

 

[Weezy1973]

I think there is a fundamental difference between you to that will be hard to solve. I had a previous relationship that had some similar dynamics. My ex was raised in a chaotic environment and was very comfortable in chaos and at times would cause chaos. I, on the other hand liked order. And would strive to make our lives as calm as possible. A clear mismatch. Your wife also seems to need some of these situations to feel important, and that perhaps too is a byproduct of her childhood. She needs her complaints to be heard. She needs her advice to be heeded. And when it’s not. She takes it personally as if the other person thinks she isn’t important. Everything is personal. 
 

Not sure I have much advice. These are hardwired patterns and likely can’t be adjusted. Either you can live with them, and continue on as you are, or you can’t. 

[BMI03]

3 hours ago, Weezy1973 said:

I think there is a fundamental difference between you to that will be hard to solve. I had a previous relationship that had some similar dynamics. My ex was raised in a chaotic environment and was very comfortable in chaos and at times would cause chaos. I, on the other hand liked order. And would strive to make our lives as calm as possible. A clear mismatch. Your wife also seems to need some of these situations to feel important, and that perhaps too is a byproduct of her childhood. She needs her complaints to be heard. She needs her advice to be heeded. And when it’s not. She takes it personally as if the other person thinks she isn’t important. Everything is personal. 
 

Not sure I have much advice. These are hardwired patterns and likely can’t be adjusted. Either you can live with them, and continue on as you are, or you can’t. 

Wow, you nailed it! Observation itself is advice in suggesting ways to look at this, which ultimately improves my changes to understand it I hope. She is a single child of a single mother, who grew up in a home with her mom, aunt, aunt's child (10 years older than her), and grandmother who ran the show. Her mother was the bread winner for all, but often gave up a lot to meet the needs of the others. As the youngest I imagine a lot of what you said about being heard, especially in the face of others surviving off her submissive mother (who passed away when my wife was 26), contributes a lot to this.

I think that's also a feed into why (I believe) she has a sense that only she can love our son the way she loves him, like everyone else, me included, are not capable of loving and treating him fairly. It infuriates me to have that implied because I believe I treat both children, not mathematically equally, but with what they individually need at individual times. They are different personalities themselves, and their needs do not always match. Neither more or less from one vs. the other, but just different.

I don't know...I think this time we need professional help because we are starting from two very different places. I think she's controlling to think I am going to report on every detail within 5 minutes or face her wrath. I think she jumps to anger too quickly and doesn't talk it through; basically assumes the worst intention (or at lest a negligent intention) vs. there just being complicated cases where everyone means well. She cares about outcome vs. intent, whereas for me intent is everything. She thinks I am too passive, avoiding conflict, under communicating, and rug sweeping issues when I don't want to engage when she's in a fighting mood. She thinks I don't listen, and I think I'm listening and adjusting, and STILL facing her anger. So I'm disconnecting into 'Why bother when I can't please her hostility no matter what I try...there will always be something else to be mad at.', and she's disconnecting into 'He just will not listen to me so why should I try'.

Happily, we are both willing to try a professional, but it feels like a distant starting point like you said as well.

Thanks.