Tricky situation about long term relationship

[Lauriebell82]

I have not posted about myself since the days of dating my ex husband (lots of threads about him!) 15 years ago. But I guess now I need a place to put my thoughts. I've been with boyfriend for 5 years. We are both divorced, both have kids. We don't live together (different school districts). Marriage has been an ongoing source of debate back and forth across our relationship. He tends to flip flop between wanting to get married, then changing his mind and getting scared when something happens (like a fight I guess). But we work through conflict better then any relationship either of us have been in, he agrees with this. We both had terrible ex spouses, bad divorces (his was worse). Anyway, my point in this is that he is a wonderful guy, a wonderful partner and I love him very much. We broke up on Friday because of the debate about marriage. I am trying to get a handle on my feelings. You'd think after a lousy marriage and such a crazy terrible ex husband I'd want nothing to do with marriage and just be happy with what I have. For whatever reason, I can't seem to let it go. It's not like I'm looking for anyone else..I just want my boyfriend. But after 5 years he seems to not want to get married. So where does that leave us? Well, we have been talking a little in the interim but I don't know exactly where I am at here. Why does this bother me so much. If you all found the right person but wanted to get married would you accept that they didn't want to get married? I'm trying to feel that way but something keeps nagging at me but just can't quite pinpoint what it is. Maybe I take his indecision personally. We agreed to talk again on Friday after processing our feelings. Our breakup was very amicable but I'm just not sure here. I am having trouble imaging my life without him but I also don't know if that's just because my feelings are so raw. Thanks so much for listening. 

[Weezy1973]

29 minutes ago, Lauriebell82 said:

Maybe I take his indecision personally.

Could be this. You’re maybe interpreting his rejection of marriage as a rejection of you. Or maybe you just have always thought that successful relationships end in marriage? So somehow not getting married is a failure? 
 

One thing I’ll say is that it’s possible that a contributor for the success of your relationship (despite the breakup) is that you don’t live together. And perhaps he gets this. 

[Els]

It depends on how important marriage itself is to you. It was always "moderately important" to me - I don't think I would have left if a partner didn't want to get married, no, but it was nice when we did. I understand that it's a lot more important to some people. Also, the laws of the land that you live in matter - where I live, de facto partners have the same legal rights and liabilities as a married partner, so there was no legal element involved, only a social/personal element. In other places, the legalities are completely different.

If you felt strongly enough to break up with him, I think that indicates that marriage is very important to you, and therefore you probably did the right thing. Your needs are valid, you just need to be sure that they are truly YOUR needs, and not something that you are told that you should want.

Edit: I just realized after re-reading your post that you don't live together. Personally, I would never marry a person that I've never lived with... but that's just me. It's fine if you feel differently.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Elswyth

[Lauriebell82]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:36 AM, Weezy1973 said:

Could be this. You’re maybe interpreting his rejection of marriage as a rejection of you. Or maybe you just have always thought that successful relationships end in marriage? So somehow not getting married is a failure? 
 

One thing I’ll say is that it’s possible that a contributor for the success of your relationship (despite the breakup) is that you don’t live together. And perhaps he gets this. 

Hi thanks for the input. I agree I have always thought that successful relationships end in marriage. I tend to think it's very very strange if I see a long term couple (like on facebook) who have been together a long number of years, have kids together and are unmarried. But I also grew up with traditional parents in the suburbs, my dad went to work, my mom a stay at home mom...it was like the tv show "Leave it to Beaver." So maybe anything that veeves from that picture (despite the fact I already have my kids, no desire to have anymore, ect) just irks me in a way. I don't know...

Edited July 18, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[Lauriebell82]

34 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

It depends on how important marriage itself is to you. It was always "moderately important" to me - I don't think I would have left if a partner didn't want to get married, no, but it was nice when we did. I understand that it's a lot more important to some people. Also, the laws of the land that you live in matter - where I live, de facto partners have the same legal rights and liabilities as a married partner, so there was no legal element involved, only a social/personal element. In other places, the legalities are completely different.

If you felt strongly enough to break up with him, I think that indicates that marriage is very important to you, and therefore you probably did the right thing. Your needs are valid, you just need to be sure that they are truly YOUR needs, and not something that you are told that you should want.

Edit: I just realized after re-reading your post that you don't live together. Personally, I would never marry a person that I've never lived with... but that's just me. It's fine if you feel differently.

Thanks for the response! We had talked about living together after his son graduates from college (he is 17 yrs old so almost done). I think we just view that a little different. I think it's more like live together as a step towards marriage, whereas he is happy to live together together..marriage may/may not be part of the picture. 

So as I have been thinking, one the reasons marriage is important is because a long term relationship (unmarried) in my state in the USA offers zero legal/financial protection at all. Not that I am after his money, but buying joint property could get tricky and caring for someone long term...basically if he dies then I could potentially be left with expenses to take on myself after his estate goes to his kids. That just doesn't seem right to me. My friend who is a reator said we could consult a real estate attorney if we ever bought joint property and have it specified when we wanted. That makes me feel better. I don't know. 

I probably DO feel some external pressure from friends/family at times because everyone tends to think our relationship is so weird that we still live apart after all these years and have no marriage plans set and that sort of makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong. Despite feeling happy with my boyfriend and loving our relationship itself. I wish I didn't really care what other people thought so much! 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[eerie_reverie]

I logged into my account from god knows when just to reply to you. I remember you from 15 years ago! You were studying to be a counselor and your ex was an accountant, right? Anyways, I don’t think there is anything wrong for wanting marriage. It is a different level of commitment and not for everyone but if it’s something you desire I don’t think you need to justify it to yourself or anyone else. Maybe it would help to figure out how you and your bf see your lives 5, 10, 20 years down the road? Will you be living together? Traveling? Thinking about retirement? How about grandkids? And how do the emotional, financial, and legal aspects of marriage enable/ hinder these plans? 

[chillii]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:36 AM, Weezy1973 said:

Could be this. You’re maybe interpreting his rejection of marriage as a rejection of you. Or maybe you just have always thought that successful relationships end in marriage? So somehow not getting married is a failure? 
 

One thing I’ll say is that it’s possible that a contributor for the success of your relationship (despite the breakup) is that you don’t live together. And perhaps he gets this. 

Yep going with this op and it's all messing with your head.

My partner is like this and it was very very personal to her that l wanted to string things out. But like your bf, l've been married, and l've lived the hell divorce is for us and our kids and the starting over financially and he does have kids he's thinking about very seriously. l want to remarry l'm just not in a hurry, we've been together 5yrs l think, close and l do want to and with her. There's been no one else l'd want to remarry with , maybe he's close to and we have no idea what he's divorce circumstances were but he sounds more so cautious than it being about you , just on what you've said anyway.

[FMW]

This is something you have to decide for yourself, no one else's opinions should hold much weight.  You don't have to defend what you want or how you feel.  

That being said, someone not wanting to marry, especially after a divorce, doesn't necessarily mean they lack love or commitment to someone.  I'm a woman, I divorced after 23 years and I don't want to ever marry again. I love the man I've been with for a few years, I'm committed to him, I'm there for him.  Our relationship is very important to me.  

 

[Wiseman2]

15 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

I probably DO feel some external pressure from friends/family at times because everyone tends to think our relationship is so weird that we still live apart. 

There's no hurry to marry or live together as long as you both have minor children. Your and his children should come first. If that means living in a house they grew up in or continuing in the schools they're in, that's fine. You both also need to honor your children's relationship with their father/mother and proximity to them. 

If it's a solid relationship you don't have to rush down the aisle or make foolish living together arrangements to appease friends opinions

Try not to think so far ahead. If and when you blend lives you can contact an attorney then regarding a bullet proof will.

It's not as if some clock is ticking so enjoy what you both have until you are both ready for the next phase. Do whatever is uniquely right for you, your kids and your situation.

[Will am I]

On 7/17/2022 at 5:02 PM, Lauriebell82 said:

Anyway, my point in this is that he is a wonderful guy, a wonderful partner and I love him very much. We broke up on Friday because of the debate about marriage. I am trying to get a handle on my feelings. You'd think after a lousy marriage and such a crazy terrible ex husband I'd want nothing to do with marriage and just be happy with what I have. For whatever reason, I can't seem to let it go. It's not like I'm looking for anyone else..I just want my boyfriend. But after 5 years he seems to not want to get married

I think I might understand his side.

Women notoriously complain how men are afraid of commitment. On top of that, this man actually has a reason to be afraid of marriage, namely his past experience through marriage and divorce.

 

I think it's important that you have your own vision clear. Is it important for you to be married? If so, what does marriage represent to you? 

Is it a deal breaker if your partner prefers the currenbt arrangement over a marriage? Should it be a deal breaker?

[Lauriebell82]

Thank you all for the very well thought out responses..so much insight. So my kids ages are 8 and 10. His kids are less of a factor. He has an adult daughter who is 27 and lives on her own and a teenage son who is 17 and has one more year of high school. Obviously my children are more a factor then his are. 

My divorce was pretty easy considering my ex husband is such a mean person. We kept it completely out of court and settled fast. My boyfriend did not have it so easily. His ex wife dragged him through court battles for years and made some allegations against him during these court battles. They came back unfounded of course, but I don't think any of that helps to make him feel any less cautious about marriage. She also attempted to steal all the money out of their accounts after their seperation, to which their accounts had to be frozen for a period of time. As crazy as my ex husband is, he would never attempt any of these things thankfully! I can't imagine going through that. I think my boyfriend knows I am not that person, but having had it done to him and having married someone like that, maybe he's just super cautious now. Like overly so. 

I'm not in a hurry to get married, nor do I prioritize marriage over my boyfriend. Now that I'm had more time to assess my feelings I think a lot of what I am worried about is some of the protection (as in legal protection) you get from marriage like buying property together and caregiving and healthcare concerns and things (especially as we get older) will become an issue. Now a friend of mine who is a realtor said this can all be legally documented for my protection both for property and in our wills which DOES make me feel so much better. My boyfriend and I have discussed buying property together (like in retirement when my kids have graduated from school) but we don't really discuss marriage as part of that picture. Just being together. Although I did assume we would be married, where he said he didn't really think about it. We both want the same things out of our lives, the only thing we really disagree about is the marriage part. But if I'm not going to have anymore kids and I can get the legal protection (like upon his death I wouldnt' lose my house to his kids!) then it might make me feel better about it. But to the same token I think my boyfriend would have to agree to the legal stuff as well. Like if he wants his kids to be his sole dependents then I'm not sure that's going to work. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[Lauriebell82]

23 minutes ago, S2B said:

Why don’t you plan to buy a house yourself? IF he wants to live there as the years come along - he can pay you rent

So I bought my own house for myself and my kids 2 years ago. Its a rather large house and big enough for him to move into as well. Even has space for his son to come back from college to visit (although I didnt buy the house with that in mind, I bought it for me and my boys. The size was just an added bonus!)
 

When I talk about buying property together I am referring to down the road when he retires (13 years or so) because we both want to move to a warmer climate. Its very cold in Pennsylvania! We see ourselves retiring and buying a property in South Carolina or Georgia or somewhere like that. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Lauriebell82 said:

I am referring to down the road when he retires 13 years or so.

Cross that bridge when you get to it. Try not to let fear, anxiety and what others think overshadow allowing the relationship to evolve at it's own natural  pace.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Wiseman2

[Lauriebell82]

7 hours ago, S2B said:

This is an easy fix if you will just get your head around ‘no commingling if money’.

why is it necessary to think you need to mix your money/assets with his?

I think its more of a personal preference and to me I could never imagine not having combined money/assets with my partner who I love and trust. Whats mine is your’s so to speak. Of course I imagined this in a marriage situation..but regardless I would have this attitude even if marriage were not part of the picture. But thats just who I am I think. 

[Els]

I can definitely understand your concerns if de facto partners do not have legal rights where you live. It's hard to build a life with someone if you can't trust that when one of you passes away, everything you worked for wouldn't go to someone else (i.e. the house going to his kids). This goes double if one of you is supporting the other person - moving for their career/kids, or doing more of the housework, buying all the groceries, etc. Having a joint account for joint expenses (even if you still have personal accounts for personal expenses) also makes things 100% easier IMO.

So yes, I suppose if I lived where you did, I would be taking a similar stance as you on marriage.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Elswyth

[Wiseman2]

18 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

 my kids ages are 8 and  10. if he wants his kids to be his sole dependents then I'm not sure that's going to work. 

If you are not married his children will be his beneficiaries. And if you foolishly buy real estate together, they can evict you.

It's not appropriate to have a "what's mine is yours" attitude  with a BF when you have children.

Is he significantly older? It's odd to be discussing retirement when you have school aged children at home for at least another decade.

Don't let him move into your home either.  Take your time. 

 

 

 

[basil67]

19 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

But if I'm not going to have anymore kids and I can get the legal protection (like upon his death I wouldnt' lose my house to his kids!) then it might make me feel better about it.

This needs to be covered in his will and/or a pre nup.    Yes, you may have to sell property to split his assets after his death, but a fair way to address it would be for the percentage you paid in to be gifted to you and for his own assets to be gifted to his children. 

 

 

[giotto]

I'm a bit baffled by this, to be honest. You've been together 5 years, you love each other, get on well and you are prepared to break up a very good relationship over this? What does that tell you?

[Lauriebell82]

2 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

If you are not married his children will be his beneficiaries. And if you foolishly buy real estate together, they can evict you.

It's not appropriate to have a "what's mine is yours" attitude  with a BF when you have children.

Is he significantly older? It's odd to be discussing retirement when you have school aged children at home for at least another decade.

Don't let him move into your home either.  Take your time. 

 

 

 

Yes, he is 10 years older then me (I'm 40, he's 50 years old). He talks about retirement mostly because he doesn't like his job and it's something for him to look forward to. He won't leave his job though because he has a pension and has been with his company for 22 years so that would not make logical sense. So in his mind thinking towards retirement and "daydreaming" if you will, helps pass the time. He's the one who brings up these conversations, as obviously I'm a lot younger and farther away from retirement age (and still have younger children). 

Just to clarify in regards to the "what's mine is your's" I most certainly would have to put some legal protections in place if I was not married (like if we bought a property the title would have to be detailed to say that the surviving partner got to remain in the house), ect. But what I like about marriage is that all that is automatically legalized for me. I think one way or another staying unmarried (if I chose that) would mean having SOME legal entanglement with me, so if my boyfriend wants to avoid being legally bound in any way shape or form...well I'm probably not the right person for him. 

[Lauriebell82]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

This needs to be covered in his will and/or a pre nup.    Yes, you may have to sell property to split his assets after his death, but a fair way to address it would be for the percentage you paid in to be gifted to you and for his own assets to be gifted to his children. 

 

 

What I would want is to put in place in the title that the surviving partner gets to remain in the house. Then when they die the property gets sold and split between our 4 children. I believe that's fair. Then nobody gets uprooted from their house because someone dies. That wouldn't happen if we were married, it shouldn't happen it we aren't. 

[Wiseman2]

7 minutes ago, Lauriebell82 said:

Yes, he is 10 years older then me (I'm 40, he's 50 years old). He talks about retirement mostly because he doesn't like his job and it's something for him to look forward to.

Ok try to redirect his retirement conversations to the present and about you two. Tell him, "well I'm not ready to retire or uproot my children, so let's talk realistically about us".

By talking at you about this, knowing you are 40 and have school-age children, means he's planning without you, unilaterally. Take note of this.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Wiseman2

[Lauriebell82]

44 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Ok try to redirect his retirement conversations to the present and about you two. Tell him, "well I'm not ready to retire or uproot my children, so let's talk realistically about us".

By talking at you about this, knowing you are 40 and have school-age children, means he's planning without you, unilaterally. Take note of this.

I don’t believe this is this case, as his timeline for retirement matches when my younger son graduates from high school. He’s even said he talks about retirement because thats when he pictures it “just us” with no kids. So I respectfully disagree with that.

What I did pick up on however (and perhaps the reason for the breakup) is his lack of short term planning). When he talks future its only retirement really. So I started to get the feeling he didn't see me and my boys as part of the picture. But he said that wasnt true either, he would live together with us, he was just unsure where marriage fit in to that picture. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[Wiseman2]

17 minutes ago, Lauriebell82 said:

What I did pick up on however (and perhaps the reason for the breakup) is his lack of short term planning). When he talks future its only retirement really. So I started to get the feeling he didn't see me and my boys as part of the picture. 

That's true. Sidestepping the here-and-now for rhetorical discussions about over a decade from now is something to carefully note.

[heartwhole2]

You are 10 years younger, so it is certainly possible he would need care while you are still fairly active. I do think that's a big question, but I suppose that if you are unmarried, then the cost of his care will be paid entirely by him, right? You can be as involved, or not, as you choose. He's the one taking the bigger risk by not legally obligating you to be there. Of course, we can't predict the future. Neither of you, or just you, might need care.

Do you have a fear that perhaps he's "just not that into you"? (If you recall that movie, Jennifer Aniston's character breaks up with her boyfriend because he won't get married, though eventually she realizes he's a better partner than all her friends' and sisters' husbands, just without the title). I guess I would definitely wonder if he would be rushing to the altar with someone else. It's hard to know if these are his feelings on marriage, full stop, or if these are his feelings on marriage today, when he's contemplating it with you. That might be that "something" that's irking you.

That said, it's not a small thing to have been through an acrimonious divorce with kids. I can understand why that would make someone wary of being back in that place. Can he offer you a level of commitment and legal protection (as you mentioned, through wills and trusts) that would satisfy you without it being legal marriage? If he wants to live together without marriage, then will he pay rent to you, and the property will be in your name?

I'd consider couple's counseling if you want to move forward together. You need to negotiate an arrangement that works for both of you, and IMO you need some better tools so that you don't break-up every time you have a fight.

[Els]

1 hour ago, Lauriebell82 said:

What I would want is to put in place in the title that the surviving partner gets to remain in the house. Then when they die the property gets sold and split between our 4 children. I believe that's fair. Then nobody gets uprooted from their house because someone dies. That wouldn't happen if we were married, it shouldn't happen it we aren't. 

If this is your only consideration, and you would otherwise be happy to not get married or in a civil union, you might consider having a consultation with a lawyer about ways that this could be put in place. It will almost certainly be more difficult and more tenuous (wills can and do get invalidated unfortunately) than being married, but if the lawyer can draw up an agreement, it could be an option.

Also, do you think he himself would be OK with that? If he's not, that might be your answer.