Tricky situation about long term relationship

[Acacia98]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

That's true. Sidestepping the here-and-now for rhetorical discussions about over a decade from now is something to carefully note.

Yep. This is something I've observed in my personal experience too. 

[Lauriebell82]

5 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

You are 10 years younger, so it is certainly possible he would need care while you are still fairly active. I do think that's a big question, but I suppose that if you are unmarried, then the cost of his care will be paid entirely by him, right? You can be as involved, or not, as you choose. He's the one taking the bigger risk by not legally obligating you to be there. Of course, we can't predict the future. Neither of you, or just you, might need care.

Do you have a fear that perhaps he's "just not that into you"? (If you recall that movie, Jennifer Aniston's character breaks up with her boyfriend because he won't get married, though eventually she realizes he's a better partner than all her friends' and sisters' husbands, just without the title). I guess I would definitely wonder if he would be rushing to the altar with someone else. It's hard to know if these are his feelings on marriage, full stop, or if these are his feelings on marriage today, when he's contemplating it with you. That might be that "something" that's irking you.

That said, it's not a small thing to have been through an acrimonious divorce with kids. I can understand why that would make someone wary of being back in that place. Can he offer you a level of commitment and legal protection (as you mentioned, through wills and trusts) that would satisfy you without it being legal marriage? If he wants to live together without marriage, then will he pay rent to you, and the property will be in your name?

I'd consider couple's counseling if you want to move forward together. You need to negotiate an arrangement that works for both of you, and IMO you need some better tools so that you don't break-up every time you have a fight.

This post struck me. I actually have seen this movie and view my situation similar to that of Ben Affleck and Jennifer Aniston’s characters. My boyfriend IS a much better partner then most “real” husbands I know and the “real” husband I did actually have! I have obviously been married (to someone quite insane) and I already did the big fancy wedding and all the whoopla. Not after any of that. Really, I think what bothers me is that the man I love more then anything doesnt want a deeper committment with me (because marriage to me IS a deeper committment). Aside from the legal protection issue that bothers me, thats the other main thing that really kind of irks me. I dont think its thats he’s “not into me enough” and I feel like his reasons are legit given his divorce. 
 

Its also important to note given his dating background he told me he’s been in a number of longer term relationships (3+ years) and never felt the need to take it past living together. His ex wife gave him an ultimatum-he didnt really want to marry her but didnt want to break up. I wont go the ultimatum route though. Not my thing. 

[mark clemson]

6 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

What I would want is to put in place in the title that the surviving partner gets to remain in the house. Then when they die the property gets sold and split between our 4 children. I believe that's fair. Then nobody gets uprooted from their house because someone dies. That wouldn't happen if we were married, it shouldn't happen it we aren't. 

IF you are able to achieve this, be real careful about how it's set up in the estate and work closely with an estate lawyer to ensure it accounts for a wide range of possibilities (e.g. what if the surviving partner needs nursing care) and ensure that, once realistic and reasonable conditions are set, the documents are phrased/set up so that the conditions would be hard to circumvent. Also be cognizant of who becomes the executor or trustee of the estate.

IME those left in charge of a deceased persons wishes seek to twist or even blatantly go against them for personal gain with somewhat distressing frequency and (although it pains me to say this I feel I should warn you) it's possible one or even both of his kids might not care that they are distressing you and/or your kids with relatively high-stakes "moves" that could benefit them. Some may feel you are standing between them and "what is rightfully theirs" or their ability to pay for their kids' college or similar. Unfortunately some lawyers will go along with exector/trustee shenanigans since it brings in work for them.

You desire what you desire and no doubt see it as "fair" but others may not see it that way, and a situation like this could set the stage for an expensive and emotionally distressing legal battle. That's something you should be aware of with a request/expectation like this.

Edited July 20, 2022 by mark clemson

[heartwhole2]

1 hour ago, Lauriebell82 said:

This post struck me. I actually have seen this movie and view my situation similar to that of Ben Affleck and Jennifer Aniston’s characters. My boyfriend IS a much better partner then most “real” husbands I know and the “real” husband I did actually have! I have obviously been married (to someone quite insane) and I already did the big fancy wedding and all the whoopla. Not after any of that. Really, I think what bothers me is that the man I love more then anything doesnt want a deeper committment with me (because marriage to me IS a deeper committment). Aside from the legal protection issue that bothers me, thats the other main thing that really kind of irks me. I dont think its thats he’s “not into me enough” and I feel like his reasons are legit given his divorce. 
 

Its also important to note given his dating background he told me he’s been in a number of longer term relationships (3+ years) and never felt the need to take it past living together. His ex wife gave him an ultimatum-he didnt really want to marry her but didnt want to break up. I wont go the ultimatum route though. Not my thing. 

Yes, definitely important context that he was fairly reluctant to get married to his ex-wife. And no, an ultimatum doesn't sound great. If this is a non-negotiable for you, then you should walk away. Maybe you walking away would make him realize marriage actually is negotiable for him, or not, but you have to do what's right for you regardless of the outcome.

You guys are potentially moving in together in a year, right? Do you feel comfortable waiting that year out to see where you land then? Maybe if you do finally move in together, you won't feel so strongly about getting married? Or do you need to sort this out now because you're not interested in living together with no prospect of marriage?

[basil67]

10 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

What I would want is to put in place in the title that the surviving partner gets to remain in the house. Then when they die the property gets sold and split between our 4 children. I believe that's fair. Then nobody gets uprooted from their house because someone dies. That wouldn't happen if we were married, it shouldn't happen it we aren't. 

 

It wouldn't necessarily happen if you marry.  I would not have the kids wait till the other partner dies.   They could be waiting 50 years or more!   

If I was in this situation, I would put steps in place to prevent this from happening.  The would be a prenup stating that the surviving partner could reside in the home for up to two years while they got their affairs in order.  The split of assets would reflect what each spouse added to the marriage financially.   And I'd double down by having a new spouse and I be 'tenants in common' with respect to home ownership.  Then I could put my kids as recipients of my share of the house when I die, with that two year period of grace.

Definition of Tennants in Common: This is an arrangement whereby two or more people co-own the same property, but with no right of survivorship to the other. The portion held under a tenancy in common is “willable” by you to a beneficiary under your will or certain persons where you have not made a will)

Edited July 20, 2022 by basil67

[Lauriebell82]

4 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

Yes, definitely important context that he was fairly reluctant to get married to his ex-wife. And no, an ultimatum doesn't sound great. If this is a non-negotiable for you, then you should walk away. Maybe you walking away would make him realize marriage actually is negotiable for him, or not, but you have to do what's right for you regardless of the outcome.

You guys are potentially moving in together in a year, right? Do you feel comfortable waiting that year out to see where you land then? Maybe if you do finally move in together, you won't feel so strongly about getting married? Or do you need to sort this out now because you're not interested in living together with no prospect of marriage?

These are all things I have actually been thinking about. We had previously talked about moving in together before we broke up but then I recently began getting the sense he was not ready to get married so I didn't think I was okay with moving in with him if marriage wasn't being considered. BUT you do bring up an interesting point, and one I have more recently considered since the breakup...maybe I will just be okay with living together and marriage won't mean as much. I'm not sure. I do know he is more "non-traditional" then me and seems like he would be the type to live with a partner before marrying them (I don't need to do that). But I would also have to prepare myself that if I move in with him then I'm kissing my chances of being married to him bye bye. I think the only chances he'd ever change his mind would be if I walked away and started dating other people. But I really love him and miss my life with him so this seems to like a big gamble, as I could end up potentially losing him forever.

[DKT3]

I believe Pennsylvania is one of the weird states that only allowed grandfathered in common law marriage.  Meaning only couples from a set date backwards could be considered. 

 

However,  it also recognize domestic partnership no matter sexual orientation.  So legal marriage isn't needed to protect you in case of death. 

The days of living with someone 20 years and then being at the mercy of thier children in case of death are long gone, in most states.  I've been unable to find one were that still happens. 

 

In reading your posts, I believe your issues is you want him to want to marry you. 

Divorce tends to take a bigger toll on men, they usually lose the kids, the house and money. 

Statically speaking most men that remarry after divorce do so in under 4 years. After 4 years they tend to not remarry. 

I personally believe its far more important to find someone who's crazy doesn't drive you crazy. 

[Els]

6 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

These are all things I have actually been thinking about. We had previously talked about moving in together before we broke up but then I recently began getting the sense he was not ready to get married so I didn't think I was okay with moving in with him if marriage wasn't being considered. BUT you do bring up an interesting point, and one I have more recently considered since the breakup...maybe I will just be okay with living together and marriage won't mean as much. I'm not sure. I do know he is more "non-traditional" then me and seems like he would be the type to live with a partner before marrying them (I don't need to do that). But I would also have to prepare myself that if I move in with him then I'm kissing my chances of being married to him bye bye. I think the only chances he'd ever change his mind would be if I walked away and started dating other people. But I really love him and miss my life with him so this seems to like a big gamble, as I could end up potentially losing him forever.

Once you move in together, you may also find that you don't actually wish to get married to him or to entangle yourselves legally. Of course it's also possible that it may strengthen your relationship, but many people (especially women in hetero relationships) do get an unpleasant shock the first time they move in with a partner, whether it's because lifestyles are completely different or they end up being saddled with a larger part of the housework. In some cases where this happened after signing the marriage documents, it has been a cause for divorce.

If it's possible without causing issues for the children, I would always recommend moving in together before you consider taking the next step.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Elswyth

[Wiseman2]

7 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

 I think the only chances he'd ever change his mind would be if I walked away and started dating other people. 

Enjoy the freedom of separate homes. This way after you visit each other, you can both have your privacy, freedom and time for your children. He doesn't want to be a stepdad but doesn't know how to tell you that.

Dating others or breaking up as a manipulative tactic never works. It simply creates the chaos of on/off and further weakens an already strained situation.

He doesn't want to live with minor children, no less be a stepdad after he already raised his kids and is on the threshold of freedom from that.

 If you enjoy each other for now, that's great. But you are very different life stages and he doesn't want to go through all that again.

He's thinking about warm climates golfing and retirement. You've got 2 children in grade school. It's simply not on the same page.

Is your children's father remarried? You seem to be trying to keep up with someone else.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Wiseman2

[giotto]

7 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

I do know he is more "non-traditional" then me and seems like he would be the type to live with a partner before marrying them (I don't need to do that). 

Why not? Wouldn't it be wiser to live together for a while before actually getting married? If he will decide to get married. What if you get married and then he moves in and it's a complete disaster? 

[Lauriebell82]

3 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Enjoy the freedom of separate homes. This way after you visit each other, you can both have your privacy, freedom and time for your children. He doesn't want to be a stepdad but doesn't know how to tell you that.

Dating others or breaking up as a manipulative tactic never works. It simply creates the chaos of on/off and further weakens an already strained situation.

He doesn't want to live with minor children, no less be a stepdad after he already raised his kids and is on the threshold of freedom from that.

 If you enjoy each other for now, that's great. But you are very different life stages and he doesn't want to go through all that again.

He's thinking about warm climates golfing and retirement. You've got 2 children in grade school. It's simply not on the same page.

Is your children's father remarried? You seem to be trying to keep up with someone else.

No, I didn't mean it as a manipulation tactic. I am not like that. I would want to date others and break up to take care of myself and save my own sanity. I think if he chose to renegotiate that would be great though. 

So, I agree with you about the stepdad issue. But it would have been nice to know from the beginning if he felt that way, and I do wish he'd be more honest and upfront about how he feels so I have all the facts. He waited 6 months to meet my boys in the beginning of our relationship and he knew straight from the start that marriage was something I wanted. I'm not sure why he wasn't just upfront about it if he knew this. 

No, my ex husband has not remarried. He's been in 2 serious relationships since our divorce, once of which he lived with his girlfriend and she had 2 children and and they were talking marriage, blended families, he bought a family SUV, ect. Then they broke up the following year. It was SUPER hard on my kids. So I think my mind, I'm not trying to keep up with anyone, but in reality trying to prevent someone from just moving in/moving out if it doesn't work out. I don't want my kids to have to endure that (or myself quite frankly). I am not afraid of a little hard work and if someone is moving in I want it to be a stable environment for all of us. That's what I am trying to create (unlike my ex husband). So it's not keeping up with anyone, it's just more the stability I am looking for. 

[Lauriebell82]

3 hours ago, giotto said:

Why not? Wouldn't it be wiser to live together for a while before actually getting married? If he will decide to get married. What if you get married and then he moves in and it's a complete disaster? 

I'm not in the school of thought to test someone out by living together. I think I would live together engaged though. For me the more important thing is having the same mindset going in and I know we don't right now which is the biggest issue. I also don't really see it being a disaster. We have been together for so many years and spent lots of time together at each other's houses to know each other's habits. Plus, we've talked at length about how we would handle a household and split things up. We've never had any issues with compromise or equal partnership or anything. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[Wiseman2]

1 minute ago, Lauriebell82 said:

I agree with you about the stepdad issue. he knew straight from the start that marriage was something I wanted. 

my ex husband  lived with his girlfriend and she had 2 children and and they were talking marriage, blended families, he bought a family SUV, ect. Then they broke up the following year.

He doesn't have to spell it out. It's rather clear when he prefers to talk about freedom and a child free retirement and that he has zero interest in being any sort of blended family. You can tell him you want marriage upfront, but it's your, not his, responsibility to not coast along.

Stability for you and your children comes from you. Right now you have a home for them to grow up in, unencumbered from a live-in BF, so keep it that way. You can maintain a relationship without living together or marriage. Try to see the good in your situation, meaning not having BFs move in or worse having a reluctant stepdad who would rather be childfree and retired.

You're both getting into a stand-off and power struggle because frankly you want completely different things now and anytime soon.

[giotto]

48 minutes ago, Lauriebell82 said:

I'm not in the school of thought to test someone out by living together. I think I would live together engaged though. For me the more important thing is having the same mindset going in and I know we don't right now which is the biggest issue. I also don't really see it being a disaster. We have been together for so many years and spent lots of time together at each other's houses to know each other's habits. Plus, we've talked at length about how we would handle a household and split things up. We've never had any issues with compromise or equal partnership or anything. 

I costs you nothing living together before getting married. It's not a "test", it's a way to discover if you are 100% compatible. Spending lots of time together when you don't live together is not the same, IMO. It's the everyday routine that will allow you to establish if you are a very good match or not. Also, I didn't say it will be a disaster, but that it could be... but at the end of the day, you know him better than me... 🙂

[Lauriebell82]

8 minutes ago, giotto said:

I costs you nothing living together before getting married. It's not a "test", it's a way to discover if you are 100% compatible. Spending lots of time together when you don't live together is not the same, IMO. It's the everyday routine that will allow you to establish if you are a very good match or not. Also, I didn't say it will be a disaster, but that it could be... but at the end of the day, you know him better than me... 🙂

I do understand what you are saying.

I think its been my experience living with my ex husband before we got engaged that he was different before he proposed then after (and after we got married too). None of the issues we had in marriage were things that really were glaring red flags while living together (although he did weird stuff, I just didnt know what it meant). But it didnt get very bad until years later. So I look at it as people are on their better behavior during dating/cohabitation and then become their true selves when married. 
 

Thats why I think I would live with someone during engagement. The intention is there so they don’t have anything to gain/lose by holding back. 

[giotto]

43 minutes ago, Lauriebell82 said:

Thats why I think I would live with someone during engagement. The intention is there so they don’t have anything to gain/lose by holding back. 

Engagement is probably the right compromise, then... 🙂 

[Lauriebell82]

Update: I spoke with my boyfriend tonight. It was a confusing conversation to say the least. Overall it went okay but he threw me a curveball. 

He was totally okay with all the legal stuff that I ran by him. He said he would make me his beneficiary in addition to his kids! I asked him what he was looking for out of our relationship if not marriage (based off our previous conversation regarding living together). He said, well either I move there, you move here, or we move elsewhere. I said, yes I agree but given my boys have at least 10 years before they graduate from school, then I think what would make sense would be for you to move here, and then later down the line after they graduate we would have more freedom to move elsewhere. Then he got SUPER weird! He started saying there were all these variables that could happen and he was complacent and too afraid of the unknown. Like what if we didn't like living together and we've been doing the same thing for so long so it's scary to change things. Yet he literally just had said 10 seconds earlier the options he wanted out of relationship was to live together. I kind of called him out on this discrepancy and asked him if because I had always made it clear that I thought engagement/marriage would be part of the package and now that I was putting that more on the backburner, did he not view living together as a "real option" previously...and now I'm making it more real? He agreed this may be the case. 

So now I have a man who is afraid of both marriage AND living together after I have tried to compromise with him on the marriage issue. I'm more confused then I was when I broke up with him. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Lauriebell82

[ExpatInItaly]

Not good, OP. 

I think this man is fine coasting along but when push comes to shove, he's going to dig his heels in and resist actually taking the leap with you. The fact that he's also hesitant about living together says a lot. 

I'm sorry. 

[giotto]

He is probably thinking: why are you asking me this now? Still 10 years to go? I think he is just afraid of commitment. If he had a bad divorce, that's understandable. I know you want commitment and he is not giving it to you, but if you keep putting pressure on him, you might lose him. But then, you might also be thinking... if he doesn't want to commit, then he is not for me... 🙂

Edited July 23, 2022 by giotto

[Wiseman2]

5 hours ago, Lauriebell82 said:

 my boys have at least 10 years before they graduate from school, then I think what would make sense would be for you to move here, 

Sorry this is happening. He doesn't want to uproot his family and be your tenant which is understandable. It's also understandable that you don't want to uproot your kids.

Also talking about beneficiaries is nonsense. It has nothing to do with trying to bridge the gap in your relationship.

He's still sidestepping everything with future talk 1.5 decades away. He is thinking about his childfree retirement and you're talking about blended families. It's simply a mismatch.

It may be time to step way back and consider that your dream of remarrying will never happen with this man.

 

[giotto]

4 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

He doesn't want to uproot his family and be your tenant which is understandable.

His son is 17... I doubt he would be moving in with them? 

[heartwhole2]

Ooof, I'm sorry Lauriebell. I know that isn't what you wanted to hear. It sounds like he wants to keep things how they are and just likes to "imagine" a future where you're living together.

I think couple's counseling would be a good idea if you both want to find a way forward.