do we have a chance or have we blown it?

[basil67]

I can see your husband's POV, but given he set up the whole situation without boundaries, I do think he's massively over reacting.  Importantly, you wouldn't be in this situation if he'd kept the gates of your marriage closed.  It also would never have happened if he didn't coerce you into it.

Anyway....I think two very different things happened here.  After finally agreeing to have consensual, inclusive sex, it was probably great fun but not emotionally intimate.  But the kiss was not inclusive and sounded more emotionally intimate.  Kind of like how some sex workers may have sex but not kiss - it's about emotional boundaries.  To be clear, I'm not calling anyone a sex worker - it's just an example to explain my thought pattern  

I agree that he probably needs to go off and lick his wounds for a bit.  But if the two of you are to recover from this, it would only work if you own that the kiss was inappropriate and he needs to own the fact that not only did he set this up, but also coerced you into participating without having discussed boundaries.

[samander]

9 hours ago, FMW said:

What was your thinking behind a 30 second kiss when telling the guy goodbye?

Yeah, look, it doesn't look good but I've probably got to put some perspective on it so people can understand.  When the other guy said he was going to go BOTH my husband and I asked him to stay but he said he had to go.  When he was having a shower my husband encouraged me to join him to try and talk him into staying longer, which I didn't do because he was out pretty quick.  When we were out in the kitchen waiting for my husband who was on the toilet he lifted me onto the bench and was going down on me.  When my husband walked in he was fine with that suggesting to the other guy that he really wanted to stay.  Then when he was leaving we kissed, it was passionate, I did enjoy it, I was trying to get him to stay.  My husband and I then had incredible sex talking about what had happened with him even suggesting we do it again, maybe the next night, this time with a woman.  I was all for that.  It was only that night, after a day of sightseeing and picking out potential partners for fun that he bought up the kiss and phone number.  Given everything we already did I just found it quite bizarre to be honest but he's entitled to his feelings.  If the kiss was wrong I accept that, I will apologize, but there was never any love in that kiss like my husband thinks.  I love him and only him. 

[samander]

8 hours ago, stillafool said:

30 seconds is a long kiss and if your husband was watching the entire time it probably seemed more like 3 minutes to him.

It's funny you say that, three minutes is exactly how long he thinks it was.

[basil67]

2 minutes ago, samander said:

When the other guy said he was going to go BOTH my husband and I asked him to stay but he said he had to go.  When he was having a shower my husband encouraged me to join him to try and talk him into staying longer....

It seems that your husband has trouble accepting a "No".  He's coerced you into this and then tried to change the mind of the guy who participated and have him continue after he'd said that he was leaving.   This isn't like trying to persuade your girlfriend to stay a bit longer before going home - this is straight up sexual coercion.  

[samander]

8 hours ago, glows said:

Instead of spending your energies wondering or wanting him to come back (that’s what he wants), go about your life normally without batting an eye.

It's so easy to say that and I do get the logic behind it, in fact it's probably the advice I would give to a friend in needed, but when it's real, when it's you in that situation, it's not that easy.  It just feels like I would be saying that I don't care what he does, whether he comes back or not.

[samander]

4 minutes ago, basil67 said:

It seems that your husband has trouble accepting a "No".  He's coerced you into this and then tried to change the mind of the guy who participated and have him continue after he'd said that he was leaving.   This isn't like trying to persuade your girlfriend to stay a bit longer before going home - this is straight up sexual coercion.  

I think that's overreacting a little. I too was trying to convince him to stay.  Maybe it technically it is coercion but we don't want to get bogged own in technicalities. I think the intent, at least from my view and I believe his as well, was just to continue the fun we were having. 

[ExpatInItaly]

Given the further details you've recently provided about what happened after this guy had showered, I have to wonder if your husband is mad  about something else altogether and is projecting. 

Something is not adding up. 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by ExpatInItaly

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, samander said:

  him suggesting we do it again this time with a woman.

And there it is....  Now you know where your  husband is really coming from.

Given that this fiasco led to him running home to his parents giving you the silent treatment, why even bother with a "next time"? 

He obviously can't handle his own fantasies come to life. Even if you picked a woman, he'd claim something else that puts you at fault for enjoying it too much or whatever.

Sorry to say but he seems abusive in many respects. From dragging home "surprise" strangers for you to have sex with to blaming you for the horrendous outcome of it.

He never discussed it with you or insured your unequivocal consent prior, so he has a lot of gall pretending that suddenly there's all sorts of threesome rules. He set you up to fail. Typical of abusers. And of course now it's your fault it ended in catastrophe.

File for divorce. You married someone with a very dark side.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Wiseman2

[glows]

10 hours ago, samander said:

It's so easy to say that and I do get the logic behind it, in fact it's probably the advice I would give to a friend in needed, but when it's real, when it's you in that situation, it's not that easy.  It just feels like I would be saying that I don't care what he does, whether he comes back or not.

No, but you can control the impulse to run after someone who has betrayed you and gone back to his parents' place at the slightest upheaval. You can pause, no matter how painful the situation, and realize that you cannot control someone else and their decision to leave. You're with someone who left you and threatened the marriage. 

It is not easy. No one ever said marriage was easy, nor thinking for yourself if you've been conditioned into believing that everything is your fault. 

Yes, we are outsiders but there's a reason why you are here instead of asking your close friends and family who may give skewed advice. You shared your situation with us and we're giving you what our thoughts are. If you don't want to listen or feel that it's not helpful, that's up to you. Then it would mean you came here to vent only. 

You don't have to make any major decisions now but I'd start with not blaming yourself for him leaving you and looking for reasons to take on brunt of the blame for the actions of your husband who can't seem to handle being married in the first place. Him not being accountable for his actions and able to discuss your marriage issues calmly speaks volumes about what kind of person he is. Sadly, if he's always been like this you may have always been the one holding it together and accepting blame. 

Imo, what should have happened ideally was both of you discussing adding third parties to the marriage beforehand. You may not like this but I think you feel guilty about the kiss because it was sharing a moment with someone else who is not your husband, and the possibility of being with someone else less myopic and more mature. Deep down, I'm sure you know what he is. You just can't seem to get out of it or stop yourself from being with him, typical of being around narcissists, abusers and other manipulators. 

[samander]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:23 PM, Wiseman2 said:

File for divorce. You married someone with a very dark side.

 

On 7/24/2022 at 8:21 PM, glows said:

typical of being around narcissists, abusers and other manipulators. 

 

I do appreciate the feedback and I am taking it in but this is a step too far.  I don't believe he is any of those things nor do I believe I should be filing for divorce.  It may well end up that we can't sort this out but that time is not now. 

Anyway, for what it's worth, he has made contact and said he wants to get together and talk it through.  I'm guessing some here may say too little too late but I'm invested in this and I'm going to give it every chance to be resolved.  He is a good person.  We got into a situation he obviously been unable to cope with and rather than filing for divorce I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this.  That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for shutting me out and going to his parents place, that will be dealt with in time. Now is not that time.

 

 

[understand50]

4 hours ago, samander said:

 

 

I do appreciate the feedback and I am taking it in but this is a step too far.  I don't believe he is any of those things nor do I believe I should be filing for divorce.  It may well end up that we can't sort this out but that time is not now. 

Anyway, for what it's worth, he has made contact and said he wants to get together and talk it through.  I'm guessing some here may say too little too late but I'm invested in this and I'm going to give it every chance to be resolved.  He is a good person.  We got into a situation he obviously been unable to cope with and rather than filing for divorce I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this.  That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for shutting me out and going to his parents place, that will be dealt with in time. Now is not that time.

 

 

OK, you are married. Why would you not try and work it out?  This is something you both did, He setting it up and you going along with it, so it is not cheating, but it is his reaction to what was done, that seems out of context.  He is acting like you cheated, and this does not make sense. So, I think what went on is that in the end, his real life could not really handle his and yours fantasy.  A long conversation, that is honest will go along way to fix this and also help both of you in this relationship.

I wish you luck.

[glows]

4 hours ago, samander said:

 

 

I do appreciate the feedback and I am taking it in but this is a step too far.  I don't believe he is any of those things nor do I believe I should be filing for divorce.  It may well end up that we can't sort this out but that time is not now. 

Anyway, for what it's worth, he has made contact and said he wants to get together and talk it through.  I'm guessing some here may say too little too late but I'm invested in this and I'm going to give it every chance to be resolved.  He is a good person.  We got into a situation he obviously been unable to cope with and rather than filing for divorce I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this.  That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for shutting me out and going to his parents place, that will be dealt with in time. Now is not that time.

 

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Hopefully the issues do not go unresolved. I’d be interested to hear what he has to say to you when he sees you. 

If anything this is an opportunity to address the way the situation unfolded adding third parties to your marriage and both your reactions. His anger and jealousy seems disproportionate so if he can’t handle the unknown or poorly planned situations both of you might benefit from more time spent not doing things like this in future. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by glows

[Will am I]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:13 AM, samander said:

If the kiss was wrong I accept that, I will apologize, but there was never any love in that kiss like my husband thinks.  I love him and only him. 

The whole idea of involving a third person was wrong. Your husband should own his own poor desisions instead of only blaming you.

[mark clemson]

7 hours ago, samander said:

 We got into a situation he obviously been unable to cope with and rather than filing for divorce I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this. 

Fair enough, but perhaps you can see how to some of us (maybe many of us) this has a "manipulative" vibe. Again, it feels "off". I'm not going to label your husband, but I will say that some people manipulate others but are not very self-aware/conscious that they do it.

 

7 hours ago, samander said:

 That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for shutting me out and going to his parents place

Wise. This was brinkmanship to a certain extent, and I think if you act all "whipped puppy dog" from the emotional turbulence of "almost losing him" after this well, I suspect you're just going to get more of it. Pay mind to the emotional dynamics of your marriage and be aware of what behaviors you may be (unintentionally) "reinforcing".

Given what you wrote above (first quote) he may have learned/be learning that by pulling away he increases how loving you are towards him. Perhaps after witnessing this kiss he needed that, and that's at least understandable, but again - suggest you keep an eye on the "dynamics" here...

Edited July 26, 2022 by mark clemson

[Wiseman2]

9 hours ago, samander said:

I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this. That doesn't mean he gets a free pass for shutting me out and going to his parents place, that will be dealt with in time. Now is not that time.

It's especially the time to discuss his inappropriate anger and inappropriate running home to his mother. He needs to sort himself out, he doesn't need hugs and rewards for acting abusive and immature.

[ExpatInItaly]

10 hours ago, samander said:

I want to wrap my arms around him and help him (us) work through this

Be careful not to reward bad behaviour. 

 

[samander]

So I thought I'd update but it's not good news.

We met up, we discussed everything in depth.  He was very honest and open and apologized for all the things that I thought needed an apology.  I apologized for the kiss, I know some here said I shouldn't but it clearly was affecting him and I genuinely felt that I'd made a mistake.  He went on saying how he thought the night was great and wanted to do it again etc.  I interrupted him there and asked if we're still together and he's coming home to which he said of course.  At  this point I was over the moon.

Then......

As we discussed things more throughout the night he said something to me that I can never forgive.  It wasn't a mistake.  It was repeated a few times and it most definitely wasn't out of context.  He called me a dirty little sl*t. He told me I just need to be who I am, to own it.  He told me to stay sl*tty.  I was in shock.  It wasn't a playful comment, he was deadset serious. And without a doubt the worst part is also the confusing part, he doesn't think that of me because of the sex, he loved that, it's all because of the kiss. I'm not sure how he can be ok with anal sex, or him wanted the other guy to ejaculate on my face (that didn't happen) but he's so worked up over a kiss.

So anyway, we're clearly on different pages and I have no desire to sort this out after his comments and I told him as much.  Now he's chasing and begging me to stay... but get this... will not take back his sl*t comments, he just agreed to not say it anymore. 

Thanks everyone for listening.  I may have been a bit defensive at times but I really felt the need to protect him as I thought we had something quite special.  If I ever go down this path again there will be very clear and defined rules, not just some vague pillow talk.  Now I get to uproot my life and try to start again... yay... 😢.  Single life is looking good.  Maybe a unicorn, lol.

[Wiseman2]

32 minutes ago, samander said:

He called me a dirty little sl*t. He told me I just need to be who I am, to own it.  He told me to stay sl*tty. 

Sorry this happened. You dodged a bullet. He's abusive. From dragging a random back as a "surprise" to degrading you. No offense but he's a sick man and you've just seen that whoever you married is an awful person.

[FMW]

1 hour ago, samander said:

he said something to me that I can never forgive.

I agree with you.  You can't have a healthy relationship with someone who views you in that way.  He clearly has a lot of issues to have been the one who brought this situation about and then turned so nasty on you.  I have a hard time believing it's all about the kiss.  It's sad, but you need to get away from him.  

[glows]

1 hour ago, samander said:

So I thought I'd update but it's not good news.

We met up, we discussed everything in depth.  He was very honest and open and apologized for all the things that I thought needed an apology.  I apologized for the kiss, I know some here said I shouldn't but it clearly was affecting him and I genuinely felt that I'd made a mistake.  He went on saying how he thought the night was great and wanted to do it again etc.  I interrupted him there and asked if we're still together and he's coming home to which he said of course.  At  this point I was over the moon.

Then......

As we discussed things more throughout the night he said something to me that I can never forgive.  It wasn't a mistake.  It was repeated a few times and it most definitely wasn't out of context.  He called me a dirty little sl*t. He told me I just need to be who I am, to own it.  He told me to stay sl*tty.  I was in shock.  It wasn't a playful comment, he was deadset serious. And without a doubt the worst part is also the confusing part, he doesn't think that of me because of the sex, he loved that, it's all because of the kiss. I'm not sure how he can be ok with anal sex, or him wanted the other guy to ejaculate on my face (that didn't happen) but he's so worked up over a kiss.

So anyway, we're clearly on different pages and I have no desire to sort this out after his comments and I told him as much.  Now he's chasing and begging me to stay... but get this... will not take back his sl*t comments, he just agreed to not say it anymore. 

Thanks everyone for listening.  I may have been a bit defensive at times but I really felt the need to protect him as I thought we had something quite special.  If I ever go down this path again there will be very clear and defined rules, not just some vague pillow talk.  Now I get to uproot my life and try to start again... yay... 😢.  Single life is looking good.  Maybe a unicorn, lol.

 You may be hurt and disappointed now but you do have the rest of your life to live and spend with someone else who deserves what you have to give in a relationship. Stay away from this guy.

Edited July 31, 2022 by glows

[ExpatInItaly]

This man is abusive, OP. 

I hope you see that now. I am quite sure he set you up for this so he'd have a "reason" to leave you, and make it your fault. (And now it's "your fault" that you won't take him back after he verbally abused you...see how that works?) I don't buy for a moment this is just about one kiss anymore. There's something else going on with him and he's making all kinds of noise about the kiss to deflect from whatever that is. 

A big part of me wonders whether he's projecting because he has been behaving badly when your head is turned.

Whatever the real story, you need to end this marriage. There won't be any coming back from this (nor should there be) 

[mark clemson]

Yeah, something is quite off with your husband. Perhaps he has ideas of being a Dominant or some such thing but has no idea how to approach it properly. Or perhaps these are attempts to manipulate you or a reflection of deeply held insecurities on his part. At any rate, as unfortunate as it may be, it sounds like it no long matters. Everyone has their dealbreakers...

[understand50]

samander,

 

I wonder if your husband was looking for something to upend the marriage.  It just seems he is doing all sorts of things to mess things up.  Maybe unconsciously, but the outcome is a break up.  There are  deeper issues here. What,  I can not imagine. 

I wish you luck...