Ex-gf best friend is a dude FWB [merged thread]

[bigmil]

So, I had a very strange situation with my ex gf last winter which has haunted me to no end.  I've considered reaching out to her for clarification and closure but at this point it would be pretty weird to do so I think.  Anyone who can read this and help me to understand what might have happened, I greatly appreciate your input and advice.  Here's the story, and I'll keep it short and to the point.

We were house sitting for one of my ex gf's friends at a ski resort area here in Utah.  She had invited her "best friend" to join us for a week.  He brought his new fiance with him.  Her best friend, who I'll call D, was a past hook up of hers.  When I asked how they knew each other, she said they had a "fling" in the past but that she had found she wasn't enjoying the sex with him, "things were getting weird", and she wanted to go back to how it was when they were just friends. 

I initially interpreted this to mean the guy sucked in bed, and she friend-zoned him.  Much later, she admitted they had had sex approx. 10 times over a 1.5 year period.  He lived in Australia at the time so they had a casual hook up whenever he was in town.  She said it was something which happened immediately after her divorce, when she was really sad. 

What has haunted me is this:  That entire week we spent in the ski house, she refused to have sex with me.  We were there an entire week, and her best friend/ex fling and his fiance were out skiing during the day.  No sex during the day when we were there alone together, no sex at night either.  She said she didn't know why she didn't want to have sex.  At one point she thought about it and said.. "control maybe?"  But she said she wasn't sure.

We ended up having sex the day they left, after they had left for the airport.  She claims very adamantly it had nothing to do with him. 

I was left with the scars of not knowing what happened -- having to spend a week hanging with her ex, listening to some mild sexual banter between them -- of which she seemed to at least make an effort to tone down and several times reiterated that "she had a boyfriend now".  I never got  closure on what happened, but it hurt me very deeply and I've been trying to make sense of it for a year now.  I felt disrespected and cucked.  I also felt suspicious and insecure because she wasn't very transparent with what exactly had occured between her and D.  She just brushed it off as a "fling" and didn't provide much detail beyond that. 

So these are my questions:

1)  Why do you think she didn't want to have sex when they were visiting?  What are some possible reasons?

2)  Shoud I reach out to her and ask her why?  Would this provide me some closure? 

3)  How do I move past this?  What boudaries should I set with future partners to prevent this from happening again? 

Edited July 28, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, bigmil said:

  Shoud I reach out to her and ask her why?  Would this provide me some closure? 

Sorry this happened. How long were you dating? What was the breakup about?.

Don't reach out. It's water under the bridge. Instead delete and block her and all her people from ALL your social media and messaging apps.

She provided TMI and that in itself is weird.  The breakup is the closure. It's time to move forward.

[FMW]

No, do not reach out to her.  If she was able /willing to give you an explanation that would have made it easier for you to move on, she would have done it at the time.  Talking to her now isn't going to help you, and might even make things more difficult.

5 hours ago, bigmil said:

having to spend a week hanging with her ex, listening to some mild sexual banter between them -- of which she seemed to at least make an effort to tone down and several times reiterated that "she had a boyfriend now".

That was completely inappropriate and to me indicates they aren't "best friends" but people keeping their options open with each other.  It also was insensitive and classless in front of you and his fiance.  

I have no guesses as to why she wouldn't have sex with you that week that you probably haven't already thought of yourself.  It's just more reason to see the week as your sign that she wasn't the girl for you.  

To move on, focus on how badly you felt and connect that with how she chose to act with you.  Was that not enough to make you able to let go?  Why would you want to hold on to that?

In the future, be very leery of a woman who keeps an ex sexual partner as her "best friend".  Yes, exes can be friends, I'm still friends with one of mine.  But we are not "best friends", I would not spend a week together with him, alone or with our partners, and we most certainly don't engage in sexual banter.  

As far as proper boundaries, it sounds like you had them, she didn't.  The problem it seems was that you weren't prepared to actually let her go when you realized that, you were and are still seeking answers.  Sometimes there are no answers, other than "time to move on".  She can't give you closure, you have to reach acceptance and give that to yourself.  Otherwise, you're going to stay stuck.  

[bigmil]

Wisema2, what do you mean by "she provided too much TMI"?

FWM, to answer your question:

To move on, focus on how badly you felt and connect that with how she chose to act with you.  Was that not enough to make you able to let go?  Why would you want to hold on to that?

Well, the problem is that she is very beautiful, elegant, and amazing in bed.  It's been hard to find another woman who has those qualities.  She was also a lot of fun.  I felt like we were very close at times.

Other things which bothered me about her:

1)  She was bi-sexual and wanted to be able to go hook up with women then come home and tell me about, and have sex with me.  She wanted me to be monogamous though. She was very jealous.

2)  She had a wild sexual past that included sex parties, dating couples, and lots of one night stands.  I didn't judge her for this, but the result was she had many men who were "friends" of some sort whom she'd had sex with in the past.  I also tried to not let this bother me, but it did.

3)  After we broke up, she immediately got a threesome site.  I asked her about it and she said "I'm single, so I can have some fun."

4)  I found out she never deleted her dating apps the entire time we were together.  She led me to believe that she did.

5)  She would promise sex and then ramdomly shut it down.  This was very frustrating and felt very hurtful.

She came back around for a time months later and we spent Christmas and NYE together.  We were having lots of sex and she was apologetic about her past behavior and said she had to "learn how to be in a relationship".  We talked about going to counseling and figuring things out.  The last time I talked to her on the phone she said she "cared for and respected me" and she wanted us to be cordial and friends.  She suggested we stay in contact and she talked about her ex husband and how they talked about every 7 weeks.  I told her I needed time and space (knowing about the no-contact rule).

I'm not sure why I cling to her, or the memory of her.  Trauma bonding?  It's hard to understand and my life has been difficult since my experience with her.  I wake up nearly every morning thinking about some aspect of what I experienced with her. 

I really need help in understanding how to move on, how to move forward, how to forget her.

Thanks, I really appreciate the responses. 

 

 

[ItsTheDay]

12 hours ago, bigmil said:

She said she didn't know why she didn't want to have sex.

She knew exactly why, and most likely it did have to do with him. You'll never know. She also may of told you it was just a "fling" because that's what she thought you should hear.   

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, bigmil said:

Wisema2, what do you mean by "she provided too much TMI"?

This type of detail about previous lovers is superfluous.

12 hours ago, bigmil said:

she had found she wasn't enjoying the sex with him, "things were getting weird", and she wanted to go back to how it was when they were just friends. I initially interpreted this to mean the guy sucked in bed, and she friend-zoned him.  Much later, she admitted they had had sex approx. 10 times over a 1.5 year period.

 

[ExpatInItaly]

13 hours ago, bigmil said:

2)  Shoud I reach out to her and ask her why?  Would this provide me some closure? 

No, and no. It's very unlikely you would get a straight answer out of her. 

13 hours ago, bigmil said:

3)  How do I move past this?  What boudaries should I set with future partners to prevent this from happening again? 

Counselling might be a good option. You seem stuck in a loop over this, so a professional should be able to help you understand why you attach your self-worth to this particular event. As far as boundaries with future partners  - listen to your gut instinct when it's trying to talk to you next time. Don't try to make yourself be okay with a partners whose history doesn't sit well with you. It's the sign that you're not compatible. 

[stillafool]

She didn't want to have sex with you because she didn't want him to hear or come home and catch you guys having sex.  TBH, as much as that woman seemed to sleep around you are well rid of her because sooner or later you would no longer be enough for her.

[bigmil]

4 hours ago, ItsTheDay said:

She knew exactly why, and most likely it did have to do with him. You'll never know. She also may of told you it was just a "fling" because that's what she thought you should hear.   

I've come that conclusion.  Describing it as a fling is a way to minimize the impact, which means she knew I would have an issue with it.  Which, means that she did understand boujdaries and what most people would find appropriate, she just didn't care.

[bigmil]

 

27 minutes ago, stillafool said:

She didn't want to have sex with you because she didn't want him to hear or come home and catch you guys having sex.  TBH, as much as that woman seemed to sleep around you are well rid of her because sooner or later you would no longer be enough for her.

I have thought of that.  I didn't think about the "him coming home" part.  The motivations behind her not wanting him to hear could be due to a lot of reasons.  It could be that she was concerned for his feelings, or that she had a mental block due to her own lingering feelings.  It could also be that she was in a "no sex" mode around him and his fiance and she wanted to enforce that in her own mind.  It could be that she wanted group sex or had thoughts about it and her defense was to shut down sexually completely.  It would be great to know why, but likely I never will.

[bigmil]

4 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

This type of detail about previous lovers is superfluous.

 

I disagree.  I think if you want to bring a previous sexual partner into your relationship bubble, and have your partner be ok with it, you need two things:

1)  Total Transparency about the previous relationship

2)  Ego Protection

 

Meaning, being honest about, and fully explaning the context of the old relationship -- how things ended, when, what progressed, what level of intimacy was achieved.. all these things are very important to share so that your partner and decide if they are comfortable or not with the situation.

Ego protection comes in when you introduce your partner to the ex -- you have to ensure your partner feels like they are the priority, #1 no matter what.  This means sexually, emotionally, everything. 

[bigmil]

15 hours ago, Wiseman2 said:

Sorry this happened. How long were you dating? What was the breakup about?.

Don't reach out. It's water under the bridge. Instead delete and block her and all her people from ALL your social media and messaging apps.

She provided TMI and that in itself is weird.  The breakup is the closure. It's time to move forward.

We were together on and off for a year time frame.  8 months uninterrupted.  The breakup happened when we were going to go Mexico on a long weekend vacay and 3 of the people who would be sharing the Airbnb with us were men whom she'd previoulsy had sex with.  She described them fondly as just friends, super funny and fun, and good people.  She said they liked to joke sexually a lot.  I sent her an email outlining my boundaries around ex's, and her response was "Well, I guess you're gonna have a hard time next weekend then, because my friends and I like to joke around a lot." 

I broke up with her then and there.  Cancelled my ticket, packed up my truck and drove home.

[Alpacalia]

18 hours ago, bigmil said:

3)  How do I move past this?  What boudaries should I set with future partners to prevent this from happening again? 

Do not agree to be placed in a situation like this again.. Like. Ever.

After she told you, "I'm going to invite my best friend who I used to sleep with" you should have said, "Good, babe, have fun on your own without me."

Edited July 27, 2022 by Alpacalia

[bigmil]

9 minutes ago, Alpacalia said:

Do not agree to be placed in a situation like this again.. Like. Ever.

After she told you, "I'm going to invite my best friend who I used to sleep with" you should have said, "Good, babe, have fun on your own without me."

I totally agree!  - - I will never be in that situation again.

Had she said it with those words, as you described, I likely would have hesitated.

It was very gradual though -- like a frog in hot water who doesn't know they're being boiled.  Very easy to say "you should have said no", but it wasn't.

She started by telling me they had a "fling" and that the she didn't enjoy the sex.  I took this to mean they had sex once or twice, and it was a disaster and so she friend-zoned him.  She knew what to say to ease me into the situation -- even to make me feel like I was superior to him. 

Later when I probed more, I found info which went against the initial benign narrative she sold me.  Sex 10 times isn't congruent with "I was not enjoying the sex"  lol.

Also, because she left so much out, lying by omission -- I could sense she was hiding things -- that made it so unsettling. 

More and more I think he probably fell hard for her, or at least started to, and she avoided him, cut off sex. and then he came in as a caring friend.  Their bond occurred during a particularly vulnerable period of her life, so he likely means a lot to her, and has been a confidant for her over the years.  The sad thing is, if all that was true, and she was just transparent about it, I probably could have set boundaries around it and been ok as long as those boundaries were adhered to. Those would be:

1)  I'm the #1 man in your life emotionally.

2)  You don't share anything with him that you wouldn't with me.  No shared secrets, no backdoor communication.  I would want total transparency -- being able to read any texts or messages between them.

I think their "fling" ended up involving some deeper emotions, and that's likely what she was trying to hide from me.

Sometimes it's hard to avoid situations like this -- many hot women have guy friends they've had some history with.  The more attractive the woman,  it seems the more likely it is she'll have many male orbiters of some sort or another.  I really think transparency -- not accepting the situation without asking lots of questions -- and being able to fully see what they are discussing, what their history is, how it ended, etc.  -- all that is super important to know.  On top of that, you have to be the #1 emotional connection in her life, not the ex FWB.   She has to make sure you know you are her man, and that means affection, sex, and ALWAYS choosing YOU first over the ex. 

In general though, yes, this is a situation you want to avoid at all costs, if possible. 

[glows]

She likely still had feelings or some affection for him during the trip and was loyal to him in a way. It also sounds like she was on her way out or she wasn't as invested in the relationship as you were. If she was rebounding you might have been another rebound. For some it's not just one but several, going through a phase. I'm responding to her comment about herself needing to learn how to be in a relationship. She might not have been ready at all when she knew you. 

As for why you feel drawn to her, that's something you'll have to unpack on your own. Sometimes toxic and dumb, the adrenaline rush of someone charming and very attractive is too much to resist. If she was wild and impulsive or makes poor choices, maybe it's different from others you've known and that's what you wanted at the time. Why look for affirmation or validation and seek answers from her? She's unattainable to you and the one who got away. She also ran hot/cold and was unpredictable, dangling sex like a carrot and then shutting it down. You're nothing but a toy for her. She enjoyed toying with you because she had you wrapped around her finger.

Do you think she might have made a good partner in the long term? Was a phase you were going through dating women like this? Maybe you are still looking for women like her. Not sure where you are on this but something to include in the food for thought. 

Regarding boundaries, just be yourself and be firm. Setting boundaries at the start is easy. It's harder later on when you realize you are with a complete gong show and a different matter altogether if you're trying to change an entire person. You can't change anyone so it's best to set those boundaries early on and pick partners who are more compatible with you instead of getting upset later on that they're not who they said they were. Take your time more in the dating and getting to know you stages.

[ExpatInItaly]

5 hours ago, bigmil said:

I broke up with her then and there.  Cancelled my ticket, packed up my truck and drove home.

That was smart. 

Why on earth did you get back together after that? 

[bigmil]

41 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

That was smart. 

Why on earth did you get back together after that? 

emotions, sex.  She also seemed to "hoover" in some sense.  She was apologetic about the things that happened -- she seemed open to possible forward progress.  Mainly it was just sex at that point.  I know she expressed feelings and wanted to try to build something, but she still had the need to go have sex with women and expected me to be monogamous.  Perhaps I could have made something happen with her -- with therapy possibly.   It's sad to think about, because perhaps I could have kept her at that time, had I been willing to.  We ended up in an argument one night and I truly didn't care that she left.  After that, we had dinner once and a few phone calls.  The emotions started coming back for me but I found out that a car she was given for free during our relationship actually came from another guy who she had a long term sexual past with.  She claims she never cheated on me though. 

[ExpatInItaly]

I think you need to re-evaluate your own boundaries, OP, and ask yourself why you ignored all the red flags. 

You knew she was trouble and you went back for more. Sex is not a good reason when it affects your self-esteem this much.

[bigmil]

4 hours ago, glows said:

She likely still had feelings or some affection for him during the trip and was loyal to him in a way. It also sounds like she was on her way out or she wasn't as invested in the relationship as you were. If she was rebounding you might have been another rebound. For some it's not just one but several, going through a phase. I'm responding to her comment about herself needing to learn how to be in a relationship. She might not have been ready at all when she knew you. 

As for why you feel drawn to her, that's something you'll have to unpack on your own. Sometimes toxic and dumb, the adrenaline rush of someone charming and very attractive is too much to resist. If she was wild and impulsive or makes poor choices, maybe it's different from others you've known and that's what you wanted at the time. Why look for affirmation or validation and seek answers from her? She's unattainable to you and the one who got away. She also ran hot/cold and was unpredictable, dangling sex like a carrot and then shutting it down. You're nothing but a toy for her. She enjoyed toying with you because she had you wrapped around her finger.

Do you think she might have made a good partner in the long term? Was a phase you were going through dating women like this? Maybe you are still looking for women like her. Not sure where you are on this but something to include in the food for thought. 

Regarding boundaries, just be yourself and be firm. Setting boundaries at the start is easy. It's harder later on when you realize you are with a complete gong show and a different matter altogether if you're trying to change an entire person. You can't change anyone so it's best to set those boundaries early on and pick partners who are more compatible with you instead of getting upset later on that they're not who they said they were. Take your time more in the dating and getting to know you stages.

I don't think she would have made a good long term partner, no.  I was miserable in the relationship -- lots of highs and lots of lows.  I didn't feel stable. 

Yes, you're correct about the timing with setting boundaries.  I set them immediately now.  Literally, from Day 1 if need be.  I was naive going into this relationship and assumed I didn't need to explicity state things like, "I don't accept being triangulated with ex sex partners" or, "I expect to be a priortiy in your life."

Evey other woman I have ever dated had these boundaries by default.  Now I now I have to state everything -- lots of communication -- lay it all out.  Expectations, boundaries, ideas about sex and monogamy, EVERYTHING.  Can't talk too much!

Edited July 28, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[bigmil]

3 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I think you need to re-evaluate your own boundaries, OP, and ask yourself why you ignored all the red flags. 

You knew she was trouble and you went back for more. Sex is not a good reason when it affects your self-esteem this much.

I have.  My boundaries are much stronger now.

Words are very easy to type.  Breaking a trauma bond is much harder, and sex is a powerful motivator. 

With her, it was too late.  I didn't have the experience when I first met her to know the red flags.  I optimistically assumed it would all work out. Once that trauma bond is formed, and once you've had a lot of great sex with the person, well... it's very easy to get sucked back in.

Now, it's a completely different story.  I filter out probably 90% of the women I meet online.  Through chatting, phone calls, etc.  I have a list of red flags I look out for, and I never ignore those.  I have gone so hard with the boundaries I've had to reexamine that and make sure I'm considering context and individual situations rather than being too harsh and assuming the worst. 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

1 minute ago, bigmil said:

My boundaries are much stronger now.

Good. 

Consider the chapter with her closed, and lesson learned. It won't serve you to ruminate over details that don't really matter anymore. Searching for answers from her will keep you stuck and feed your negative feelings, rather than setting you free. 

[John Glasby]

I can relate to your situation. I once had a relationship with a hot younger girl who had a much wilder sexual past than I was comfortable with. I let that mess with my head and it ruined the relationship. But in the case of the girl you're dealing with, it sounds like she's still prone to looking for the next new sexual adventure, and that can only hurt you should you continue. You would never truly trust her. Talking about needing to have access to texts, etc., - if you have to do that, I don't think you're in a relationship with the right person. 

But I totally understand the way good sex makes us work so hard to accept what we otherwise wouldn't. Somehow, you just have to get past letting that control your thinking or your actions. She sounds like someone who would very likely hurt you down the line, and that's reason enough to not look back. That deal in Mexico certainly was unacceptable and you were right to put your foot down and walk away. I suggest you just keep walking. It's hard to not look back, I know, but you're doing the right thing by putting increasing distance between you. 

She may "learn how to be in a relationship" or she may just settle down in an open relationship with some male-equivalent who she she lets cheat. Either way, she sounds like bad news. 

[bigmil]

2 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

Good. 

Consider the chapter with her closed, and lesson learned. It won't serve you to ruminate over details that don't really matter anymore. Searching for answers from her will keep you stuck and feed your negative feelings, rather than setting you free. 

I agree.

But... thinking about my own actions, my responses -- I think there's massive value in that because it helps me to grow.  Grow in the sense that, I understand myself better.  I can identify better ways to handle these types of situations.

For example, I know that I'm not ok with a woman bringing an ex sexual partner around  (assuming there's a need or good reason), without lots of discussion and ensuring my ego is protected as well.  I know how to consciously express my emotions -- be ok with admitting that I feel insecure, knowing how to ask for security, etc. 

This experience was an amazing gift in many ways because it put me in some extreme situations where personal growth and insight were the end products.

Unfortunately, I had to feel quite a lot of pain to get to where I am.

The Rumination is horrible, and yes totally agree -- keeps one stuck.

[bigmil]

3 minutes ago, John Glasby said:

I can relate to your situation. I once had a relationship with a hot younger girl who had a much wilder sexual past than I was comfortable with. I let that mess with my head and it ruined the relationship. But in the case of the girl you're dealing with, it sounds like she's still prone to looking for the next new sexual adventure, and that can only hurt you should you continue. You would never truly trust her. Talking about needing to have access to texts, etc., - if you have to do that, I don't think you're in a relationship with the right person. 

But I totally understand the way good sex makes us work so hard to accept what we otherwise wouldn't. Somehow, you just have to get past letting that control your thinking or your actions. She sounds like someone who would very likely hurt you down the line, and that's reason enough to not look back. That deal in Mexico certainly was unacceptable and you were right to put your foot down and walk away. I suggest you just keep walking. It's hard to not look back, I know, but you're doing the right thing by putting increasing distance between you. 

She may "learn how to be in a relationship" or she may just settle down in an open relationship with some male-equivalent who she she lets cheat. Either way, she sounds like bad news. 

well said and thank you.  It does feel good to hear from others that I did the right thing.  I am proud of myself for having the balls to set those boundaries, and walk away when she refused to honor them.  That was gut-wrenching, but neccessary. 

[glows]

53 minutes ago, bigmil said:

I have gone so hard with the boundaries I've had to reexamine that and make sure I'm considering context and individual situations rather than being too harsh and assuming the worst. 

 

Balance is a good thing and context is important. It’s always best to go on a case by case basis and trust your instincts. Good of you to remain flexible and open to new opportunities.