Ex-gf best friend is a dude FWB [merged thread]

[NuevoYorko]

43 minutes ago, bigmil said:

So is being “partially transparent” similar to being “partially pregnant” ??  Lol.  I think it’s you either you are you aren’t.  

So there is no place for privacy in your relationships? 

People who feel threatened by their partner's wish for privacy are not going to be candidates for a healthy relationship.   

If you do not / can not trust, then LEAVE.  

 

[bigmil]

33 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

So there is no place for privacy in your relationships? 

People who feel threatened by their partner's wish for privacy are not going to be candidates for a healthy relationship.   

If you do not / can not trust, then LEAVE.  

 

So you'd trust the person to have unprotected sex with you, but not to share your phone code with them??  hmmm

"I value my privacy" really means "I have things I don't want you to know or see."

It's a type of gaslighting.  The truth is, if you have NOTHING to hide, it doesn't matter.  As a matter of fact, you would welcome it because sharing info only makes your partner feel more secure, and that'll benefit both of you.

Now, this is proportional to the level of commitment for sure.  This level of transparency is appropriate inside of an LTR or marriage.  I understand during the initial phases that it doesn't make sense to be this open. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, bigmil said:

So is being “partially transparent” similar to being “partially pregnant” ??  Lol.  I think it’s you either you are you aren’t.  

Not sure why you responded with this.  I mentioned nothing about "partially transparent".  I simply want a partner who trusts me enough to not require access to my messages.   If he did check my messages, he'd find nothing.... but the act of checking them demonstrates that they do not trust me. And I'm not OK having a partner who doesn't trust me for no good reason.  

In the 30 years we've been together I have never, ever felt the need to read my partner's messages or go through his social media.   Why?  Because his behaviour is appropriate and consistent.  Reading messages of a partner who is loving, appropriate and consistent is simply not required in my world.  

Besides, anyone who wants to cheat can simply get a burner phone or secret email.  There are always ways to hide our behaviour.    

We really are going around in circles here.  If you want agreement that it's reasonable to check the other's messages without good reason, you will not find it with me.  But if it's important to you, then you simply need to find someone who is OK with it.   After all, there is a lid for every pot.  

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by basil67

[bigmil]

13 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Not sure why you responded with this.  I mentioned nothing about "partially transparent".  I simply want a partner who trusts me enough to not require access to my messages.   If he did check my messages, he'd find nothing.... but the act of checking them demonstrates that they do not trust me. And I'm not OK having a partner who doesn't trust me for no good reason.  

In the 30 years we've been together I have never, ever felt the need to read my partner's messages or go through his social media.   Why?  Because his behaviour is appropriate and consistent.  Reading messages of a partner who is loving, appropriate and consistent is simply not required in my world.  

Besides, anyone who wants to cheat can simply get a burner phone or secret email.  There are always ways to hide our behaviour.    

We really are going around in circles here.  If you want agreement that it's reasonable to check the other's messages without good reason, you will not find it with me.  But if it's important to you, then you simply need to find someone who is OK with it.   After all, there is a lid for every pot.  

 

I agree -- I've never checked a girl's messages in any relationship I;ve been in.  If I felt insecure,though and felt like she was lying by omission, or just straight up lying about something, I would not hesitate to ask. 

The "I value my privacy" thing has never made sense to me.  It does indicate "I have things I don't want you to see."

 

 

[NuevoYorko]

2 hours ago, bigmil said:

So you'd trust the person to have unprotected sex with you, but not to share your phone code with them??  hmmm

No.  That's backwards.  If I didn't trust them, I would not have unprotected sex with them.   If I felt I needed access to their phone code, I would not be there.   

[ ]  It's possible to have a relationship where wanting your partner to give you her phone code would be an outlandish proposition.  

Again:  If you need this, you do NOT need the relationship.  Perhaps you're not ready for any relationship, or you simply have chosen someone you cannot trust.  Either way - move on.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
civility

[Alpacalia]

Everyone is putting forth their perspectives.

Some of your perceptions and attitudes towards women and relationships is rather skewed.

Having an ex boyfriend or lover is not on my list of ongoing friendship but I do have a platonic male friend or two that I have had for over 15+ years. If you came at me with half the stuff here, I would run. 

[basil67]

2 hours ago, bigmil said:

I agree -- I've never checked a girl's messages in any relationship I;ve been in.  If I felt insecure,though and felt like she was lying by omission, or just straight up lying about something, I would not hesitate to ask. 

Could it be that your rule of wanting access to messages has come about as a result of how your ex behaved and you wanting to protect yourself.

Thing is, her behaviour was already well and truly shady - and you shouldn't need access to her messages to confirm it.   Let's face it, back in the day, we had to work out good from bad when there were no cell phones, social media or email accounts to log into. 

Trust yourself to recognise bad behaviour without requiring written/photographic evidence.

Edited July 29, 2022 by basil67

[NuevoYorko]

11 hours ago, bigmil said:

 

The "I value my privacy" thing has never made sense to me.  It does indicate "I have things I don't want you to see."

 

 

When you get to a place where you are prepared to engage in a healthy relationship with a woman, you will understand why privacy is valuable to people.  

For now ... look at the woman you picked.  Observe that almost a year later you are obsessing over her, what was she thinking, why was she doing it, why did she want to have sex with women (??? I missed that part the first time) while you were supposed to be monogamous, etc.  

Knowing every thought she had, word she said, sex act she did, would not have "protected your ego."  All of that would have just driven you more into a controlling, jealous, and possibly dangerous spiral.  

Don't you want to come to a place where you wouldn't even consider a woman who behaved like this?   It's possible. 

[poppyfields]

@bigmil, just caught up with this thread and imo you DO seem quite evolved.  Your attitude is reflective, introspective and quite mature actually.  

You seek understanding which is admirable.  That's key in developing and maintaining healthy relationships-- understanding

I don't consider this Red Pill at all, it's pragmatic and smart. 

Re the checking of messages, I do agree that the mere fact someone needs to check reflects a lack of trust.  And without trust there's nothing, at least nothing of value. 

However, sometimes you may have a suspicion and need evidence to form a conclusion.

Some people will hire a private investigator and some people will check messages.

There was a poster on this forum who was in a LTR with a man for many years.  She was madly in love with him and from what she wrote, it was mutual.  He was a fantastic boyfriend.

One day she checked their phone bill and noticed unfamiliar numbers.  She called a few numbers and long story short, she discovered he had been cheating on her.

She ended the relationship as painful as it was to do. 

You are correct, relationships are nuanced containing many layers, there is no one size fits all.

Continue asking questions, continue to seek understanding. 

Continue developing your own personal boundaries which frankly are no one's business but your own and I suppose your partner's.  There is no wrong or right here as far as I'm concerned.

For me, I don't maintain friendships with ex's nor do I maintain male friendships generally when in a serious relationship

I find it a huge PITA because 99% of the time, such "friends" don't really want to be just friends.  They have a romantic interest which makes me uncomfortable.

It might be different if he had been a friend from childhood and if your girlfriend(s) maintains such friendships, you will need to determine for yourself if you're comfortable with that. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by poppyfields

[ItsTheDay]

14 hours ago, bigmil said:

"I value my privacy" really means "I have things I don't want you to know or see."

I was a victim of this and even got gaslighted over it when I caught her. I didn't really "catch" her doing anything, but I figured out why she was acting different and distant towards me and of course, I was the one that couldn't be trusted with her "privacy" even know she was having a crush on another guy (read her messages on her iPad of her talking about him to her friend) that was putting distance between us. Four years later we broke up.   

[ExpatInItaly]

15 hours ago, bigmil said:

"I value my privacy" really means "I have things I don't want you to know or see."

I'm afraid I don't totally agree there. 

But the point is, find a woman who does. Problem solved. 

[flitzanu]

15 hours ago, bigmil said:

 

"I value my privacy" really means "I have things I don't want you to know or see."

It's a type of gaslighting.  The truth is, if you have NOTHING to hide, it doesn't matter.  As a matter of fact, you would welcome it because sharing info only makes your partner feel more secure, and that'll benefit both of you.

 

no.  this is highly subjective and opinionated and not near accurate.

"i value my privacy" means "i've had a life i've built for decades longer than the miniscule amount of time i've known you, and i'm not about to have to defend myself when you see something you don't agree with, that has nothing to do with you"

or a plethora of other things.  what if your girlfriend has text messages with her therapist or family about being molested as a child, and she doesn't want to have that conversation with you?  is that "lying" to you by keeping it private, or insulting because you're not allowed to read it?

 

having nothing to hide does not equal "it doesn't matter"

you ever seen a famous person's life get ruined by something they said in private 10 years ago?  now imagine that for you, regular person on the street, who said something 10 years ago that your gf reads and doesn't like, because you gave them unfettered access to things they never needed.

i think there's some confusion with "privacy" and "control"

[bigmil]

34 minutes ago, flitzanu said:

no.  this is highly subjective and opinionated and not near accurate.

"i value my privacy" means "i've had a life i've built for decades longer than the miniscule amount of time i've known you, and i'm not about to have to defend myself when you see something you don't agree with, that has nothing to do with you"

or a plethora of other things.  what if your girlfriend has text messages with her therapist or family about being molested as a child, and she doesn't want to have that conversation with you?  is that "lying" to you by keeping it private, or insulting because you're not allowed to read it?

 

having nothing to hide does not equal "it doesn't matter"

you ever seen a famous person's life get ruined by something they said in private 10 years ago?  now imagine that for you, regular person on the street, who said something 10 years ago that your gf reads and doesn't like, because you gave them unfettered access to things they never needed.

i think there's some confusion with "privacy" and "control"

very good points.

I would think the level of transparency would be proportional to the level of commitment.  Obviously it wouldn't be appropriate to ask for this early in a relationship.  And in cases as you've described -- private conversations with a therapist -- absolutely.

What I see as reasonable is allowing my gf access in response to specific concerns or insecurities she might have.  For example, if I had a platonic female friend and it made her uncomfortable, letting her see that our communication is completely platonic would add to her sense of security. 

Also, it's not like you would ever demand this, you'd ask for it ONLY because there were lots of other red flags or signs that something was amiss.  Being transparent with texting is a tool you can use to build trust. 

Generally though, "I value my privacy" does mean "I have things on my phone I don't want you to see."  Generally, this isn't a good sign in my experience.  The argument, which I struggle to understand why some people don't see as extremely valid, is this:  "If there's nothing to hide, why would it matter?"

[poppyfields]

21 minutes ago, bigmil said:

Generally though, "I value my privacy" does mean "I have things on my phone I don't want you to see."  Generally, this isn't a good sign in my experience.  The argument, which I struggle to understand why some people don't see as extremely valid, is this:  "If there's nothing to hide, why would it matter?"

It matters because of the implication.  It implies/suggests you do not trust your partner.    

Personally, I have nothing to hide either but would resent my new hubs asking regardless.  Again it suggests he doesn't trust me, and my response would be "why do you need to see, do you not trust me"?  It would make me quite uncomfortable even though again I have nothing to hide.

That said, IF he has any suspicions or concerns about my behavior such that he feels insecure and needs to check my phone, I would rather he bring those issues to light for us to discuss rather than check my phone.

Asking asking to check my phone just sounds icky for lack of a better word.

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by poppyfields

[bigmil]

8 hours ago, NuevoYorko said:

When you get to a place where you are prepared to engage in a healthy relationship with a woman, you will understand why privacy is valuable to people.  

For now ... look at the woman you picked.  Observe that almost a year later you are obsessing over her, what was she thinking, why was she doing it, why did she want to have sex with women (??? I missed that part the first time) while you were supposed to be monogamous, etc.  

Knowing every thought she had, word she said, sex act she did, would not have "protected your ego."  All of that would have just driven you more into a controlling, jealous, and possibly dangerous spiral.  

Don't you want to come to a place where you wouldn't even consider a woman who behaved like this?   It's possible. 

I am in that place.  That's the reason I filter out the vast majority of women I meet online.  I now have much stronger and defined boundaries, and understand the red flags to look out for.

As far as "when you get to a place where you are prepared to engage in a healthy relationship with a woman", that's just one of the many negative assumptions you've made about me in this thread.  I've been in several LTRs which were very healthy.  My last one (before the toxic one) lasted 6 years and we had a wonderful relationship.  I know what a healthy relationship is, and how to act in one.

No one should EVER feel controlled.  You can't control someone and expect them to love you.  That causes resentment. 

Choosing to be transparent in response to your partners bid for security isn't control -- that's called empathy and honoring their emotional state.  A very simple act:  "here sweetie, I have nothing to hide, feel free to read the chat between me and Jen.."  That simple act is painless for me but it might mean the world to her.  It might move her from a place of mistrust into a place of trust and that will benefit you both.

[ ] 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
off topic

[ItsTheDay]

50 minutes ago, flitzanu said:

i think there's some confusion with "privacy" and "control"

There is but "privacy" is also being taken advantage of. Not privacy itself, but the labeling of privacy. In my case, I invaded my gf's "privacy" because I went through her iPad and found out she had a guy at her gym that she was pressed over. Which was resulting in her acting different, distant and uninterested in me....For a few months. She gaslighted me and said I invaded her privacy and that I wasn't supposed to find out and that she was working on it herself. There's a thin line between hiding and privacy, but there is a difference. It may be subjective, but we all know right from wrong. Everybody wants to be trusted, but none want to earn it. 

[bigmil]

1 minute ago, ItsTheDay said:

There is but "privacy" is also being taken advantage of. Not privacy itself, but the labeling of privacy. In my case, I invaded my gf's "privacy" because I went through her iPad and found out she had a guy at her gym that she was pressed over. Which was resulting in her acting different, distant and uninterested in me....For a few months. She gaslighted me and said I invaded her privacy and that I wasn't supposed to find out and that she was working on it herself. There's a thin line between hiding and privacy, but there is a difference. It may be subjective, but we all know right from wrong. Everybody wants to be trusted, but none want to earn it. 

so well said:

"Everybody wants to be trusted, but none want to earn it."

Trust me, but I don't want to do anything to gain that trust. 

[ItsTheDay]

4 hours ago, bigmil said:

so well said:

"Everybody wants to be trusted, but none want to earn it."

Trust me, but I don't want to do anything to gain that trust. 

It's the truth. I've been leaning a lot now that I've been single for over a year and actually had time to look at things in third person. Nobody wanted to earn trust. Nobody wants to grow or build a relationship anymore, they[ ]  just want to jump right into someone else's perfect life. A lot has changed in 10 years, and it's just going to get worse. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
gender wars

[bigmil]

3 hours ago, poppyfields said:

It matters because of the implication.  It implies/suggests you do not trust your partner.    

Personally, I have nothing to hide either but would resent my new hubs asking regardless.  Again it suggests he doesn't trust me, and my response would be "why do you need to see, do you not trust me"?  It would make me quite uncomfortable even though again I have nothing to hide.

That said, IF he has any suspicions about my behavior such that he would need to check my phone, I would rather he bring those issues to light for us to discuss rather than check my phone.

Asking asking to check my phone just sounds icky for lack of a better word.

 

If you're to the point you feel the need to ask your partner to see their texts, then you definetly should have EXPLICITY stated to them you do not trust them, or that you have trust issues around a particular situation.  Nothing at that point should be implied.

For example:  Let's say my gf has a male friend who is an ex FWB but now they text back and forth 5 times a week.  The frequency of that contact is enough to make most people uneasy.  Expressing that uneasiness to your partner shouldn't be an issue.  It's a pretty normal reaction and doesn't mean you're a control freak.  it just means you have an insecurity.  Asking to see the nature of the texting would confirm the platonic nature of it, and put your mind at ease.  I believe this is called "evidence based dating".  I see no problem with that -- it's actually just a normal part of setting boundaries and expectations.  I think couples go through a period of time where behaviors are modified to better gel together. 

I get the 'icky" part because I feel that as well.  No one wants to feel controlled.  That is like kryptonite and repels you.  But, there needs to be a pathway of transparency and communication that results in greater trust between the two of you.  If sharing your texts helps do that, I would, without hesitation.

Edited July 29, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language

[poppyfields]

See to me, this is simply unacceptable behavior when in a committed relationship.   If this were happening, I would not even need to see their texts, I would simply wish them well and walk away.  Move on.

Unless someone has lived under a rock for most of their lives, this is common sense.  Anyone attempting to justify this as "normal" behavior and/or making you feel like the "bad guy" and "wrong" for being insecure about it - get rid!  

What bothers me is the suggestion that being insecure is somehow wrong or bad.  It's NOT.  It's human!  Unless someone is a robot, devoid of emotion, there will be times when you or your partner is going to feel insecure.  This where communication and understanding come into play.

And again for anyone, including your partner, to make you feel wrong or bad about that, suggesting you are not "evolved," or need "therapy," or "not ready for a healthy relationship," just get rid. 

Seriously, either they're intentionally gaslighting you or they're living in some sort of alternate universe, not a place I would ever want to live.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
quote removed

[Wiseman2]

2 hours ago, bigmil said:

Let's say my gf has a male friend who is an ex fwb

Bringing him on vacation to share lodgings was very strange. But the breakup was a year ago. In the future, all you can do is avoid someone who has a string of FWBs, exes who are 'best friends' anyone who lives with and ex and other assorted nonsense.

Edited July 29, 2022 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Acacia98]

On 7/28/2022 at 6:57 PM, bigmil said:

. Several say they don't view having past sex partners whom are now friends as a problem -- they honestly can't see an issue with it.  They care about that person and I don't think their motivation is based on a need for validation, at least from what they say.

I think some of them just aren't very self-aware.

And I think some of them are being disingenuous, as you would quickly find out if you started doing the same things as them. Your ex is a perfect example of this. She expected to you to put up with a lot, but she wouldn't tolerate the same from you.

[bigmil]

9 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

See to me, this is simply unacceptable behavior when in a committed relationship.   If this were happening, I would not even need to see their texts, I would simply wish them well and walk away.  Move on.

Unless someone has lived under a rock for most of their lives, this is common sense.  Anyone attempting to justify this as "normal" behavior and/or making you feel like the "bad guy" and "wrong" for being insecure about it - get rid!  

What bothers me is the suggestion that being insecure is somehow wrong or bad.  It's NOT.  It's human!  Unless someone is a robot, devoid of emotion, there will be times when your partner is going to feel insecure. 

And again for anyone, including your partner, to make you feel wrong or bad about that, that they're not "evolved," or need "therapy," or "not ready for a healthy relationship," just get rid. 

Seriously, either they're intentionally gaslighting you or they're living in some sort of alternate universe, not a place I would ever want to live.

 

 

100%! 

Gaslighting really messes with your head.  My ex would make sexual jokes with her "best friend" whom she'd had a sexual past with and would say things like, "It's just a joke!", or "That's just how we talk to each other."

Other examples of her gaslighting were: "None of my friends understand why you have a problem with it.", and "Why does it matter?"

When I see responses where people claim jealousy and insecurities are "YOUR" problem to deal with, because it means you need to work through issues --- well, I see that as a form of gaslighting also.  It's ok to feel jealous or insecure at times -- it IS normal. 

In a healthy relationship, both people will understand this, and respond to bids for security with the following:

1)  Total acknowledgement of your partners feelings and emotional state

2)  Transparency

3)  Action (if needed) to correct behaviors which might be degrading trust between the two of you. 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by bigmil

[bigmil]

4 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

I think some of them just aren't very self-aware.

And I think some of them are being disingenuous, as you would quickly find out if you started doing the same things as them. Your ex is a perfect example of this. She expected to you to put up with a lot, but she wouldn't tolerate the same from you.

I agree. 

I also think most of those connections with past FWBs contain an underlying erotic element to the connection which is later misinterpreted as platonic affection.  There's no way you can have lots of sex with someone and then shift back to a purely platonic state.  I have female friends who claim "he's really just like a brother to me now" but when you see the way they interact -- there's something there, even if it's subtle.  Sex is the most possible intimate act between two people -- you can't share that without some fundamental change in the nature of your connection to another human being.  Perhaps this is possible for a sociopath, but not for someone with normal empathy. 

I'm 100% sure that she would have NOT been ok with me bringing an ex gf on the ski trip and making sexual jokes with her.  She freaked out on me once because I had a picture of an ex gf on my imac photo library. 

[glows]

7 hours ago, bigmil said:

When I see responses where people claim jealousy and insecurities are "YOUR" problem to deal with, because it means you need to work through issues --- well, I see that as a form of gaslighting also.  It's ok to feel jealous or insecure at times -- it IS normal. 

In an ideal situation, this can work, yes. It’s more often the case that someone is insecure to start due to past unresolved issues and pandering to that type of insecurity is not healthy. Worse, if you have two insecure individuals feeding off of one another it’s only promoting a dysfunctional relationship. And even worse than two insecure individuals is an abuser or controlling person who is out of control and insists that they have no problem with jealousy. 

The main point of all this is dating someone compatible in the first place where misunderstandings and discussions ad nauseam over basic incompatibility are not required. Of course communication is always important but not where these discussions are a regular occurrence.