Is it normal

[Skyline0817]

Our workplace just restarted Department meeting in person meeting, gathering and offsite team-building activity, which was great to see colleagues finally due to Pandemic.  The head of the Department, the top guy/boss was in this role since last year but obviously we have not really known and seen due to work from home.

So on the team-building activity day, I was assigned to be with this guy in the same group, also he provided car-pool for several people including myself, from office to the activity venue both ways. Somehow I was assigned to his car as well.

During the group pic session, I happened to stand next to him, he put his hand lightly on my low back when the photographer clicked. I was a bit surprised then I ignored since it was so quick and group pic could be crowded sometimes.

Then on the way home on his car around rush hour, the traffic was bad. I was sitting at the co-driver seat (another coworker sat at the back seat). He had a hard braking due to some other car stopped without signal, so obviously I was heavily leaning forward with safety belt, also my hands were holding my purse on my knee when seating. Right after the sudden brake, he apologized multiple times and put his hand on my hands for a little while (while my hands were holding my purse in front of my chest (similar to Seifield stop short scene). I did not think much, thought it could be his unconscious behavior trying to comfort me since he's married with multiple young kids.

At the end of day, I was just reflecting, were those "touching" necessarily , or just by accident happening? During last couple months impression, I thought this new leader would be a brilliant leader and gentlemen, not some pervert. BTW, we are both married.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Skyline0817

[stillafool]

Okay I'm a woman too and have taken group pictures with co-workers.  We all put out arms, hands around each other's waist, no big deal.  I drive really fast and if there's a passenger with me I will actually put my right arm out across the passengers chest to protect them from my stops.  Again, no big deal.  Considering this is a married man with a family it's doubtful he's thinking like you are.   Do you want these gestures to mean something?

[Skyline0817]

6 minutes ago, stillafool said:

Okay I'm a woman too and have taken group pictures with co-workers.  We all put out arms, hands around each other's waist, no big deal.  I drive really fast and if there's a passenger with me I will actually put my right arm out across the passengers chest to protect them from my stops.  Again, no big deal.  Considering this is a married man with a family it's doubtful he's thinking like you are.   Do you want these gestures to mean something?

I am very very relieved from your comment since I do want to keep my original respect to this guy. BTW, I am married as well, I did not think that much initially then at the end of day just thought a bit odd by its coincidence.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Skyline0817

[basil67]

I think the hand on your back is normal for a group photo.

But the lengthy holding of your hand while checking you were OK after a quick stop is a bit off.   I bet he wouldn't have done the same for a male passenger!  And you make no mention of the back seat passenger...did he ignore them completely? 🤔  Something like "oh jebus! Is everyone OK?" would have been more than sufficient.   

Edited August 17, 2022 by basil67

[Skyline0817]

6 minutes ago, basil67 said:

I think the hand on your back is normal for a group photo.

But the lengthy holding of your hand while checking you were OK after a quick stop is a bit off.   I bet he wouldn't have done the same for a male passenger!  And you make no mention of the back seat passenger...did he ignore them completely? 🤔  Something like "oh jebus! Is everyone OK?" would have been more than sufficient.   

He was not holding my hands, just touching, felt like he made gesture stopping people on the co-driver seat further leaning forward. If it's natural and unconscious reaction since he has multiple kids, I would be relieved, otherwise would feel odd.

[basil67]

Putting his hands on your hands is still a really weird thing to do and not remotely like the instinct of holding you back in your seat while bracing for possible impact.  And I still wonder how he comforted the person in the back seat.

If you didn't feel that his actions are a bit weird, why are you asking about them?

Edited August 17, 2022 by basil67

[Skyline0817]

19 minutes ago, basil67 said:

Putting his hands on your hands is still a really weird thing to do and not remotely like the instinct of holding you back in your seat while bracing for possible impact.  And I still wonder how he comforted the person in the back seat.

If you didn't feel that his actions are a bit weird, why are you asking about them?

Thank you for raising great question. No, he did not ask the passenger at the back seat /another coworker if she is ok. It was so sudden, I did not react with much thinking until the end of the day, so much coincidental "touch" on the same day, especially we barely knew each other due to the Pandemic WFH most the time. 

Honestly it will break my heart if he is really kind of "pervert", which is totally ripping away my initial respect of this new leader.

I do feel a bit odd but I could also think of myself being un-necessary sensitive, that is why I am asking here.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Skyline0817

[basil67]

31 minutes ago, Skyline0817 said:

Honestly it will break my heart if he is really kind of "pervert", which is totally ripping away my initial respect of this new leader.

The above words are really intense and suggests that you're also far too close to him.

Let's break it down:  I'm not being mean, but hoping you'll evaluate your own reaction to him and get your feelings into context.    "Pervert" is a very strong word - it's hardly like you've discovered that he hooked up a secret cam in the women's bathroom.   Perhaps 'flirty', 'inappropriate' or 'crushing on you' is closer to the mark.     "Break your heart" is also very strong.  This is when you're devastated by a break up and have fallen into a pit of depression.  

A more healthy reaction on your part would be "I'm disappointed that he's lacking in boundaries and not the leader I'd hoped he'd be".  If you keep your feelings in check, this will be a whole lot easier.

[Skyline0817]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

The above words are really intense and suggests that you're also far too close to him.

Let's break it down:  I'm not being mean, but hoping you'll evaluate your own reaction to him and get your feelings into context.    "Pervert" is a very strong word - it's hardly like you've discovered that he hooked up a secret cam in the women's bathroom.   Perhaps 'flirty', 'inappropriate' or 'crushing on you' is closer to the mark.     "Break your heart" is also very strong.  This is when you're devastated by a break up and have fallen into a pit of depression.  

A more healthy reaction on your part would be "I'm disappointed that he's lacking in boundaries and not the leader I'd hoped he'd be".  If you keep your feelings in check, this will be a whole lot easier.

Absolutely you are right. Yes I am disappointed if he does have boundaries issue.

BTW, I am not close to him, we barely know each other in person due to Pandemic lock-down not work in office. That was the day first time workplace gathered together.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skyline0817

[stillafool]

2 hours ago, Skyline0817 said:

BTW, I am married as well, I did not think that much initially then at the end of day just thought a bit odd by its coincidence.

What did you husband think of the this?  If your boss knows you too are married it's doubtful it meant anything.  If you're uncomfortable the next time he drives you group sit in the back seat.

Edited August 18, 2022 by stillafool

[Skyline0817]

2 minutes ago, stillafool said:

What did you husband think of the this?  If your boss knows you too are married it's doubtful it meant anything.  If you're uncomfortable the next time he drives you group sit in the back seat.

Hey that would be no next time for sure since I won't let it happen again no matter it was totally innocent "touch" or else. Will not get close to that person physically.

[Lotsgoingon]

I think it is a bit odd--in fact quite odd and inappropriate and idiotic. The measure of the oddness is that you are thinking about this. If you touch people in the right way, they won't be asking about it hours later. 

The hand on your hand--nope, that doesn't work for me.  Any guy in the corporate world who doesn't know to keep his hands off workers these days is an idiot. 

Oh, and the photo, you say you don't know this guy well because you guys have been working off site. This wasn't a close colleague. Then he should have kept his hands off you. I'm a guy in the workplace, and these are just basics. At work for a photo, I'm careful about putting my hands on the backs of women coworkers that I'm close with. Of course, context matters..

Sorry, I wish I were more optimistic but I'm not. And just to be clear, I'm very much a hugger and a toucher, and these days I literally ask for permission to do that with the women in my life. A coworker--I'd put my arm around her waist or touch her back only if she initiated the contact---I'd NEVER initiate that with a coworker I didn't know well. On the ride home, no. I would keep my hands to myself--you're not some kid who needs reassuring. 

BTW: this guy is following the behavior of slicksters. They put their hands on people at the moments that have a bit of justification. "It was just a photo." Nonsense. This guy is an idiot, and I guarantee you that in six months you'll hear that he's touched other women in weird ways. 

[Skyline0817]

30 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

I think it is a bit odd--in fact quite odd and inappropriate and idiotic. The measure of the oddness is that you are thinking about this. If you touch people in the right way, they won't be asking about it hours later. 

The hand on your hand--nope, that doesn't work for me.  Any guy in the corporate world who doesn't know to keep his hands off workers these days is an idiot. 

Oh, and the photo, you say you don't know this guy well because you guys have been working off site. This wasn't a close colleague. Then he should have kept his hands off you. I'm a guy in the workplace, and these are just basics. At work for a photo, I'm careful about putting my hands on the backs of women coworkers that I'm close with. Of course, context matters..

Sorry, I wish I were more optimistic but I'm not. And just to be clear, I'm very much a hugger and a toucher, and these days I literally ask for permission to do that with the women in my life. A coworker--I'd put my arm around her waist or touch her back only if she initiated the contact---I'd NEVER initiate that with a coworker I didn't know well. On the ride home, no. I would keep my hands to myself--you're not some kid who needs reassuring. 

BTW: this guy is following the behavior of slicksters. They put their hands on people at the moments that have a bit of justification. "It was just a photo." Nonsense. This guy is an idiot, and I guarantee you that in six months you'll hear that he's touched other women in weird ways. 

Exactly. Because the justification at the moment of his "touching", just like "stillafool" thinks everything is normal for his behavior. At the end of day I feel I just swallowed a bug, a bit repulsively but I can not do anything about it. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skyline0817

[Lotsgoingon]

Well there might be an opportunity later to do something about it. Sorry you had to go through that. 

[Skyline0817]

13 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said:

Well there might be an opportunity later to do something about it. Sorry you had to go through that. 

Thanks. You seem to have totally opposite perspective from "stillafool", which means my confusion is there. Was I too sensitive for what happened, or was his behavior not appropriate indeed?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skyline0817

[Wiseman2]

Is there a way you can provide your own transportation or go with other co-workers? Do you actually feel he's "perverted" or sexually harassing you?

First try to avoid him. Maintain personal space. Be polite and professional, and stop carpooling.

You could file a sexual harassment complaint but he's not asking you out or making sexual gestures or innuendos.

Do you have a crush on him? Or would you prefer to keep your distance?

[Skyline0817]

18 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Is there a way you can provide your own transportation or go with other co-workers? Do you actually feel he's "perverted" or sexually harassing you?

First try to avoid him. Maintain personal space. Be polite and professional, and stop carpooling.

You could file a sexual harassment complaint but he's not asking you out or making sexual gestures or innuendos.

Do you have a crush on him? Or would you prefer to keep your distance?

I don’t think the incident was as severe as Sexual Harassment, was just saying all the unnecessary “touches” were odd, feeling like I swallowed a bug but couldn’t get it out. I barely know him, so no Crush whatsoever. This time carpool was arranged randomly by someone in the Department, I will ensure no next time.

By the way, do you think his behavior was appropriate, and I was just over thinking?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skyline0817

[Wiseman2]

6 minutes ago, Skyline0817 said:

 do you think his behavior was appropriate, and I was just over thinking?

You didn't like it, but destroying someone's career or reputation over it is not called for.

Be professional, polite and maintain appropriate personal space. You need to participate in your own professionalism.

He didn't touch you inappropriately or act inappropriately, even if it felt like you swallowed a bug.  You're making him sound like a creepy lecherous wolf. Is that really the case in your mind?

[Skyline0817]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

You didn't like it, but destroying someone's career or reputation over it is not called for.

Be professional, polite and maintain appropriate personal space. You need to participate in your own professionalism.

He didn't touch you inappropriately or act inappropriately, even if it felt like you swallowed a bug.  You're making him sound like a creepy lecherous wolf. Is that really the case in your mind?

The main question I believe is that, was he intentional or all just innocent and accidental. I do not know, Either way I 'll need to get distance from him.

[Alpacalia]

In the case of a group photograph, it is not uncommon to place hands along either side of the individual.

The hand gesture suggests that he was simply comforting you as you were in a vehicle and had abruptly stopped.

If you dislike being touched, that's your right. Feeling uncomfortable is your right too.

Keep your boundaries intact if/when that is the case.

You can continue to monitor it and reassess if it persists or progresses.

[Skyline0817]

1 hour ago, Alpacalia said:

In the case of a group photograph, it is not uncommon to place hands along either side of the individual.

The hand gesture suggests that he was simply comforting you as you were in a vehicle and had abruptly stopped.

If you dislike being touched, that's your right. Feeling uncomfortable is your right too.

Keep your boundaries intact if/when that is the case.

You can continue to monitor it and reassess if it persists or progresses.

Thank you for the perspectives. It seems that audience does have two different and split opinions, just like myself two voices inside me, telling me it was right (it is nothing he did that) or not right ( It's common sense in Corporate for the unwelcomed "touch").

Edited August 18, 2022 by Skyline0817

[stillafool]

14 hours ago, Skyline0817 said:

Thanks. You seem to have totally opposite perspective from "stillafool", which means my confusion is there. Was I too sensitive for what happened, or was his behavior not appropriate indeed?

This is why I asked what your husband said about this.  I know I would have discussed it with mine to see if I were too sensitive and if not what should be my next course of action with my boss.    I'm curious what your husband said.

[glows]

My personal opinion - a much ado over nothing. It may be something he does with any passenger at the front. I suggest you find another ride for work or sit in the back in the future whenever you're assigned to his car. He's doing all of you a favour driving you back and forth. 

Have you been sexually harassed or assaulted in the past? I ask to get some idea of your history or where this is coming from. You are entitled to feeling like this is inappropriate but as an outsider and from your description, considering also this happened once (I'm assuming - were there other times?), I wouldn't make a big deal out of it or let this affect your work. 

Remain professional and keep your distance if you don't like his mannerisms while sitting in the front seat. 

[Skyline0817]

32 minutes ago, stillafool said:

This is why I asked what your husband said about this.  I know I would have discussed it with mine to see if I were too sensitive and if not what should be my next course of action with my boss.    I'm curious what your husband said.

Thanks for reply again. But why husband has anything to do with it, he should not decide anything for me though.

[mark clemson]

21 hours ago, Skyline0817 said:

 I thought this new leader would be a brilliant leader and gentlemen, not some pervert.

Please share your thoughts.

My thought is that "that escalated quickly".

My other thought is that he's probably just trying to be nice.

My third thought is that if he's an attractive man in a position of leadership/authority don't be shocked if he has (or has had) an affair as certainly plenty of them do exactly that. It's theoretically possible he could be testing the waters with you. In that case, just make it eminently clear, without being rude, that you a "business only" type of woman and he'll probably leave you alone as he's likely going to have plenty of options for that.