Author Skyline0817 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 22 minutes ago, mark clemson said: My thought is that "that escalated quickly". My other thought is that he's probably just trying to be nice. My third thought is that if he's an attractive man in a position of leadership/authority don't be shocked if he has (or has had) an affair as certainly plenty of them do exactly that. It's theoretically possible he could be testing the waters with you. In that case, just make it eminently clear, without being rude, that you a "business only" type of woman and he'll probably leave you alone as he's likely going to have plenty of options for that. Thanks for many layers of thoughts, what you do mean by "that escalated quickly"? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 The touching most likely was both intentional and innocent. Some people are just touchy. We all have different views on that, and there are also cultural differences depending where you live. From your description none of it sound inappropriate, however that also doesn’t mean what he did made you feel uncomfortable. You’re perfectly entitled to feel uncomfortable, even if what he did was not inappropriate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
stillafool Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 3 hours ago, Skyline0817 said: Thanks for reply again. But why husband has anything to do with it, he should not decide anything for me though. Well if I thought my boss was being inappropriate with me my husband would be the first one I would tell about it because he's closest to me and knows my emotions. He would be able to tell me if I were being too sensitive and blowing this out of proportion; or if I need to watch my back around this guy. If you care enough to come to a forum for opinions from strangers it wouldn't be out of the norm to ask your spouse's opinion. I certainly didn't mean he should decide anything for you as you are a grown woman and can decide for yourself. I found your response to my question odd. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 1 hour ago, stillafool said: Well if I thought my boss was being inappropriate with me my husband would be the first one I would tell about it because he's closest to me and knows my emotions. He would be able to tell me if I were being too sensitive and blowing this out of proportion; or if I need to watch my back around this guy. If you care enough to come to a forum for opinions from strangers it wouldn't be out of the norm to ask your spouse's opinion. I certainly didn't mean he should decide anything for you as you are a grown woman and can decide for yourself. I found your response to my question odd. My personal decision is not mentioning it to hubby, while I still have question mark about what happened in mind indeed. Everyone is different, that is no protocol in such matter. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Weezy1973 said: The touching most likely was both intentional and innocent. Some people are just touchy. We all have different views on that, and there are also cultural differences depending where you live. From your description none of it sound inappropriate, however that also doesn’t mean what he did made you feel uncomfortable. You’re perfectly entitled to feel uncomfortable, even if what he did was not inappropriate. I understand some ppls just touchy, but in our Corporate word, sex harassment training has been pushing to employees to take mandatorily twice a year. As a higher up leader, is that so easily to forget not to touch?? I guess that was one of the reasons made me upset about. Edited August 19, 2022 by Skyline0817 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 In the wake of #metoo movement, guys have learned--and it ain't subtle--to keep their hands off of women employees. And I don't object to this once I learned the full scope of how guys in authority were harassing and coming on to subordinates. I was at a CPR training not long ago. There was a male medic and a female medic leading several demonstrations. At one point, the guy wanted to demonstrate a technique to us--can't remember the technique. This male medic said, " Mary" (invented name for the woman medic) do I have permission to put my hand on your neck for this exercise??" Then he'd wait. He made the request loud and public from the stage where they were demonstrating. The woman medic said "yes." Then they'd begin the demonstration. And by the way, the male medic had no sarcastic body language. It was like this guy was willing to do this--obviously been ordered--but also was willing because this kind of move would protect a daughter or a wife or sister or friend. Later on they (the male and female medic) did a different exercise. The male medic once again asked for permission to touch the female as part of the demonstration. What was weird was it wasn't all that weird. We sometimes think asking public permission is awkward. No it's not. Our brains can get used to it very fast. This guy's request was relaxed and smooth, and actually gave the audience a demonstration on how to do any kind of training that might involve touch. This again tells me your boss is a clueless idiot. No other way to say this. Trust me: you'll be hearing other women whispering about his hands in not too long. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 51 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said: In the wake of #metoo movement, guys have learned--and it ain't subtle--to keep their hands off of women employees. And I don't object to this once I learned the full scope of how guys in authority were harassing and coming on to subordinates. I was at a CPR training not long ago. There was a male medic and a female medic leading several demonstrations. At one point, the guy wanted to demonstrate a technique to us--can't remember the technique. This male medic said, " Mary" (invented name for the woman medic) do I have permission to put my hand on your neck for this exercise??" Then he'd wait. He made the request loud and public from the stage where they were demonstrating. The woman medic said "yes." Then they'd begin the demonstration. And by the way, the male medic had no sarcastic body language. It was like this guy was willing to do this--obviously been ordered--but also was willing because this kind of move would protect a daughter or a wife or sister or friend. Later on they (the male and female medic) did a different exercise. The male medic once again asked for permission to touch the female as part of the demonstration. What was weird was it wasn't all that weird. We sometimes think asking public permission is awkward. No it's not. Our brains can get used to it very fast. This guy's request was relaxed and smooth, and actually gave the audience a demonstration on how to do any kind of training that might involve touch. This again tells me your boss is a clueless idiot. No other way to say this. Trust me: you'll be hearing other women whispering about his hands in not too long. Thanks for sharing. You said "your boss is a clueless idiot", and if he knew what he is doing or is really "testing the water", that is really bad and disappointing (to have a new leader like that). Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 Correction: He's either a jerk on the prowl. Or He's a clueless idiot who slept through #metoo and all the men who lost their jobs. Or He may be both. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Lotsgoingon said: Correction: He's either a jerk on the prowl. Or He's a clueless idiot who slept through #metoo and all the men who lost their jobs. Or He may be both. Thanks for great input. Never understood what this kind of person was thinking. By "touch" unwelcomely, what do they want to achieve? Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 They get some kind of turn-on and feeling of power by touching women without cause or permission. And they steadily try to advance more serious touching with women. No need to go down that alley. The important point is that it didn't feel good to you. Doesn't matter what his goal is. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
NuevoYorko Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 Since you don't feel harassed or abused, and I (along with some other posters here) think that his touching could definitely be innocent, why not just give him the benefit of the doubt and, in the future, stay physically away from him. If by chance he has an opportunity to touch you inappropriately again, look him in the eye and ask him to please move his hand or whatever. BTW I am very supportive of "ME TOO" and absolutely know that many men do, and have for years gotten away with inappropriate touching of women in the workplace. I still have a sense that this man is not intentionally handling you. Since you don't know (women often DO know, even if it seems innocent), IMO benefit of the doubt is in order this time. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Alpacalia Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) On 8/18/2022 at 8:51 AM, Skyline0817 said: Thank you for the perspectives. It seems that audience does have two different and split opinions, just like myself two voices inside me, telling me it was right (it is nothing he did that) or not right ( It's common sense in Corporate for the unwelcomed "touch"). Navigating these situations can be challenging. It really does not matter what I think about his physical touching. People interpret body language and physical contact differently. The moment you feel uncomfortable, you feel uncomfortable. Do not ignore it if you feel uncomfortable. Consult a peer if you do not feel comfortable speaking directly with your manager. It may very well be an innocent accident, but the bottom line is that if you feel uncomfortable, it is important to address it. The feelings you experience are valid, and you have a right to express them. When you feel unsafe at work, you have the right to speak up and demand a change in the behavior. Edited August 20, 2022 by Alpacalia 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) 49 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said: Since you don't feel harassed or abused, and I (along with some other posters here) think that his touching could definitely be innocent, why not just give him the benefit of the doubt and, in the future, stay physically away from him. If by chance he has an opportunity to touch you inappropriately again, look him in the eye and ask him to please move his hand or whatever. BTW I am very supportive of "ME TOO" and absolutely know that many men do, and have for years gotten away with inappropriate touching of women in the workplace. I still have a sense that this man is not intentionally handling you. Since you don't know (women often DO know, even if it seems innocent), IMO benefit of the doubt is in order this time. I, actually, do feel being offended a bit and if, these two "touch" were not accidental, shows that person is disrespectful towards me. That was the 1st time after Pandemic we all employees were having activities together. However, I do not know whether how I felt this way is accurate to reflect the reality of he's being "jerk" or not. That is why this post existed. And what do you mean by saying " I still have a sense that this man is not intentionally handling you. Since you don't know (women often DO know, even if it seems innocent)"? I am not quite comprehending what you meant. Edited August 20, 2022 by Skyline0817 Link to post Share on other sites
glows Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 As a woman also, I'm adverse to intimate relationships in the workplace (personal opinion again). I don't agree with them and the idea of inappropriate touching does make my skin crawl so I hugely empathize with you, OP. Yet, on the other hand, being a driver since mid-teens and been driving all my life, I know first hand (no pun intended) what it's like to instinctively reach out to the passenger side protectively regardless if there's a passenger there or not. I'll have my purse sitting in the passenger seat and still instinctively put my hand out to hold my bag from flying to the ground if I'm making a sharp turn. All of this is said not to minimize or downgrade what you're feeling or cause you more confusion but it's difficult to tell whether he intentionally wanted to touch you as if you are something special or whether he was just reaching out like I would with my purse to prevent it from flying. If you do feel very uncomfortable I'd encourage you not to sit in the front passenger seat anymore or ask your boss to reassign you to a different driver's car and sit in the back seat there. There are a number of ways to go about this without first assuming that the hand on you was inappropriate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 On 8/17/2022 at 5:40 PM, Skyline0817 said: he put his hand lightly on my low back when the photographer clicked. Right after the sudden brake, he apologized multiple times and put his hand on my hands I thought this new leader would be a brilliant leader and gentlemen, not some pervert. It sounds like the group pic and braking incidents were hardly "perverted". Can you afford to resign over what, frankly, appears to be an overaction? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said: It sounds like the group pic and braking incidents were hardly "perverted". Can you afford to resign over what, frankly, appears to be an overaction? I never mentioned resigning in the post, not sure why you mentioned it. It these two incidents were really 100% innocent, i will for sure let it pass. But is it? Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 39 minutes ago, Skyline0817 said: It these two incidents were really 100% innocent, i will for sure let it pass. But is it? You don't seem to think a group photo touch and a braking touch on the hand are innocent, so you'll have to judge for yourself if you want to work with a "pervert". Keep in mind, destroying your or his career or marriage over a several second nonsexual touch is very odd in my opinion. Is there something else going on or that happened that makes you label him as a "pervert"? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said: You don't seem to think a group photo touch and a braking touch on the hand are innocent, so you'll have to judge for yourself if you want to work with a "pervert". Keep in mind, destroying your or his career or marriage over a several second nonsexual touch is very odd in my opinion. Is there something else going on or that happened that makes you label him as a "pervert"? There has no "destroy" in place, the post was just to get audiences' perspectives on my thought after what happened. Not sure why you use such strong words "destroy", as no action will be taken that related to the person. The most for me, is just physically staying away, unless you label keeping distance as the category of "destroy"? Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Skyline0817 said: The most for me, is just physically staying away That is the best approach. It's just unclear what you were planning to do about it. Or why he is labeled "a pervert" and why it upset you to this extent. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said: That is the best approach. It's just unclear what you were planning to do about it. Or why he is labeled "a pervert" and why it upset you to this extent. Also it sounds wierd to me when you first replied this thread, you jumped to certain conclusion of his reputation or career being destroyed by these two incidents. Not sure where this kind of protection of him came from? Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 I know this is a male talking, but I work with a lot of women and mentor a number of young women. One thing you can do to empower yourself (and I'm not blaming you here) is to practice and imagine acting in the moment to tell the person to stop. Guy touches you in a way you don't like, give him a burning stare. Or step away. Or pull your hand away. Here's the thing: you are saying this is not my comfort zone. There is no need to be paralyzed and stuck in such situations--especially in public. These idiots like your boss aren't necessarily violent. You're not going to be attacked because you gave him a mean stare or because you step away from his hand. Subordinates have more power to draw boundaries on stuff like this than they think. You don't have to be paralyzed here. It's not part of the job to pretend you're comfortable with someone touching you in a way that you aren't. Even words, "Hey John, sorry--not comfortable with the hand on my back." Most likely he would back up apologizing over himself. Somewhere along the line some people got the idea that they have to go along with harassment and boundary violations in order to keep their job. Not true in many cases. Some disagreement--some of it strong--is quite expected on jobs. And guys like your boss are as likely to apologize and pretend like "Oh, I didn't mean anything." (They meant a lot!) So you can take advantage of their innocent hypocrisy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 5 hours ago, Skyline0817 said: I never mentioned resigning in the post, not sure why you mentioned it. It these two incidents were really 100% innocent, i will for sure let it pass. But is it? To me it sounds 100% innocent. Just from how you describe it. But there really is no way to know for sure. It sounds like your discomfort came quite awhile after the actual touching, so if there was no “ick” reaction when it happened, I suspect your gut didn’t sense it was inappropriate. That’s as good a measure as any I suppose. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Lotsgoingon Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) Delayed reaction is not a sign that the behavior was fine at the time. There is tons of delayed reaction in sexual assault. Fear shuts people down, paralyzes them. A lot of people have delayed reactions, and that's fine. Lots of us are trained to be super-polite and understanding in the moment. Many times people go into denial--they don't want to feel bad, so they pretend they don't feel bad. Kids do this all the time, but so do adults. We figure out what we really feel later after we can breathe and feel safe. Happens all the time. Lots of harassment victims feel terrified and cornered in the moment and powerless!--so they don't loudly object in real time. Doesn't mean they aren't screaming inside. Edited August 20, 2022 by Lotsgoingon 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Skyline0817 Posted August 20, 2022 Author Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Lotsgoingon said: Delayed reaction is not a sign that the behavior was fine at the time. There is tons of delayed reaction in sexual assault. Fear shuts people down, paralyzes them. A lot of people have delayed reactions, and that's fine. Lots of us are trained to be super-polite and understanding in the moment. Many times people go into denial--they don't want to feel bad, so they pretend they don't feel bad. Kids do this all the time, but so do adults. We figure out what we really feel later after we can breathe and feel safe. Happens all the time. Lots of harassment victims feel terrified and cornered in the moment and powerless!--so they don't loudly object in real time. Doesn't mean they aren't screaming inside. Thank you so much for echoing what I am just about to say. Of course I had "what" moment when two incidents were happening, but as you can imagine, we were surrounding by all coworker crowds, or other coworker at back seat. I had to brushed it off at the second when the incidents happened, but then thought about when I arrived home. Not sure where those comments "discomfort came quite awhile after the actual touching" came from? I am sure not every woman being touched at workplace has been screaming out loud each time the minute it happened, is it? Edited August 20, 2022 by Skyline0817 Link to post Share on other sites
Wiseman2 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) On 8/17/2022 at 5:40 PM, Skyline0817 said: At the end of day, I was just reflecting, were those "touching" necessarily , or just by accident happening? It seems you stated that your reaction was not immediate, but came upon reflection that you didn't like it and he's a pervert. Obviously they were not accidents, but taking a group pic and bracing someone after stopping short also doesn't seem like he's a lecherous pervert. Perhaps reflect why you are so upset by this . Edited August 20, 2022 by Wiseman2 Link to post Share on other sites
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